More analysis of oil filters...
10-26-2001, 05:51 PM
#1
Not a Blowhole
Thread Starter
More analysis of oil filters...
The SHO club is a pretty smart group, and I found this posting about oil filters very good reading. For those of you who like to talk anecdotes ("I used Charmin as a filter for 110,000 miles and my car was fine...")and butt dynos, it will not be your cup of tea.
It is good reading, especially when it discusses oil flow through the Yamaha engine - this has relevance to our Acura V6's and so it is not off-topic. It should make anyone considering oils thivcker than 5-20 or 5-30 think again. Flow rates are very important.
It also discusses filters from a quality and filter media point of view. Mobil 1 is excellent, but is over-designed, just what you would want for extended drains. I may switch over from my beloved Purolator One's.
The Purolator got a very good rating. The Amsoil got an ok rating but was considered old school. One thing about Amsoil (Hastings) filter is that the media does not promote very high flow rates, and I think it was designed for older engine technology, such as V8's and big sixes. If oil flow is restricted at the hi-rpm's our engines use, either the engine starves or the filter gets bypassed a lot.
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-o...n-oilpart5.htm
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-o...n-oilpart1.htm
There is one technical point with which I do not agree. He says that 10 micron dirt particles could cause wear if three of them get side by side in an engine with 30 micron clearance. I have stated before on the Forum that anything less than 10 is really not going to cause problems, so no problem with that. However, three particles will almost never get side by side and maintain enough leverage to cause wear. Take three marbles. Place two of them side by side and try to press as hard as you can together. Pretty heavy force. Now try to do it with three. They slide off each other much more easily, no? Same with dirt.
It is good reading, especially when it discusses oil flow through the Yamaha engine - this has relevance to our Acura V6's and so it is not off-topic. It should make anyone considering oils thivcker than 5-20 or 5-30 think again. Flow rates are very important.
It also discusses filters from a quality and filter media point of view. Mobil 1 is excellent, but is over-designed, just what you would want for extended drains. I may switch over from my beloved Purolator One's.
The Purolator got a very good rating. The Amsoil got an ok rating but was considered old school. One thing about Amsoil (Hastings) filter is that the media does not promote very high flow rates, and I think it was designed for older engine technology, such as V8's and big sixes. If oil flow is restricted at the hi-rpm's our engines use, either the engine starves or the filter gets bypassed a lot.
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-o...n-oilpart5.htm
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-o...n-oilpart1.htm
There is one technical point with which I do not agree. He says that 10 micron dirt particles could cause wear if three of them get side by side in an engine with 30 micron clearance. I have stated before on the Forum that anything less than 10 is really not going to cause problems, so no problem with that. However, three particles will almost never get side by side and maintain enough leverage to cause wear. Take three marbles. Place two of them side by side and try to press as hard as you can together. Pretty heavy force. Now try to do it with three. They slide off each other much more easily, no? Same with dirt.
10-26-2001, 06:31 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Road Rage, you ARE the big Kahuna of oil's
Thank's as always for your insight. I have a question regarding oil change technique's. I had previously posted it in the past and would like your opinon on it. Here it is;
Thought I'd mention what I do during a oil change.
I just changed the oil in my TL-S and figured there could be a good amount of people that don't know about it.
Alot of wear on engine occurs at start-up, when oil needs to pump up through the oil passages to reach your bearing's etc. We all know this ofcourse it's pre-school level auto knowledge. Anyway my common sense tells me this situation is worse when we change our oil and filter. The oil has to first "FILL" the filter before it even begins to think about getting off it's ass and doing it's job! So I've always tried to minimize this.
The oil filter in the TL is in a very ideal position, upright (almost) I call this the "right" postiton. Anyway, before I install the new filter, I sit there for a couple of minutes and fill the oil filter with "new" oil. My idea behind it is ofcourse to shorten the amount of time the engine idles with no oil pressure. These are very traumatic experiences for me and I need to prevent it as much as possible.
On cars with filters that mount sideways and what not, I fill it as much as possible at whatever it could take without spilling during mount. Then I disconnect the fuel pump relay and give it some cranks here and there keeping in mind about the starter (don't abuse/heat it up). Who knows if there's even enough speed for it to pump oil but I'm presuming it's some what helping the filter get some oil .
I've bean doing this for a long time, hopefully no mechanical engineer guru don't start posting "you are wrong!" yada yada yada. j/k, but if there are any con's to this, please let me/us know.
Well, I'd appreciate your thought's, thanks man.
Chris
Thank's as always for your insight. I have a question regarding oil change technique's. I had previously posted it in the past and would like your opinon on it. Here it is;Thought I'd mention what I do during a oil change.
I just changed the oil in my TL-S and figured there could be a good amount of people that don't know about it.
Alot of wear on engine occurs at start-up, when oil needs to pump up through the oil passages to reach your bearing's etc. We all know this ofcourse it's pre-school level auto knowledge. Anyway my common sense tells me this situation is worse when we change our oil and filter. The oil has to first "FILL" the filter before it even begins to think about getting off it's ass and doing it's job! So I've always tried to minimize this.
The oil filter in the TL is in a very ideal position, upright (almost) I call this the "right" postiton. Anyway, before I install the new filter, I sit there for a couple of minutes and fill the oil filter with "new" oil. My idea behind it is ofcourse to shorten the amount of time the engine idles with no oil pressure. These are very traumatic experiences for me and I need to prevent it as much as possible.
On cars with filters that mount sideways and what not, I fill it as much as possible at whatever it could take without spilling during mount. Then I disconnect the fuel pump relay and give it some cranks here and there keeping in mind about the starter (don't abuse/heat it up). Who knows if there's even enough speed for it to pump oil but I'm presuming it's some what helping the filter get some oil .
I've bean doing this for a long time, hopefully no mechanical engineer guru don't start posting "you are wrong!" yada yada yada. j/k, but if there are any con's to this, please let me/us know.
Well, I'd appreciate your thought's, thanks man.
Chris
10-27-2001, 07:44 PM
#3
Not a Blowhole
Thread Starter
You are too kind...
The wear at startup is a bit exagerrated, alhough everyone repeats it - I know one engineer who thinks it has more to do with the production of acids from water vapor mixing with sulfured fuel and oil, forming sulfuric acid which eats away at metal surfaces. He thinks that starting a cold engine to move it into the garage causes more wear than 200 miles on the highway!
There is nothing wrong with what you are doing - prefilling the filter and priming the pump are fine ideas, although with a quality synthetic and even the better mineral oils the additive package's EP (extreme pressure) lubes will protect in case any metal to metal occurs. Priming is particulary safe for the bearings though.
I have been thinking of a way to do this easier and I am reminded that many cars, and I think Hondas are one, have a "clear flood" mode. It is usually triggered by flooring the gas pedal while cranking, which actually shuts off fuel to the injectors and lets the car start on just the resoidual gas that is causing the "flood".
Perhaps you could save yourself the hassle of having to monkey around with the fuses by using this mode for a non-standard application. That is, to prime your oil! If you floor the car while it is not flooded, it will still shut off fuel to the injecdtors, BUT THE CAR SHOULD NOT START! This will achieve the same result you seek without leaving the comfy encalve of your leather interior.
Now, I do not know for sure this will work with the TL. You might try it, but be sure to be ready to get off the throttle pronto if the engine actually catches so you do not over-rev.
Let us know what you find.
The wear at startup is a bit exagerrated, alhough everyone repeats it - I know one engineer who thinks it has more to do with the production of acids from water vapor mixing with sulfured fuel and oil, forming sulfuric acid which eats away at metal surfaces. He thinks that starting a cold engine to move it into the garage causes more wear than 200 miles on the highway!
There is nothing wrong with what you are doing - prefilling the filter and priming the pump are fine ideas, although with a quality synthetic and even the better mineral oils the additive package's EP (extreme pressure) lubes will protect in case any metal to metal occurs. Priming is particulary safe for the bearings though.
I have been thinking of a way to do this easier and I am reminded that many cars, and I think Hondas are one, have a "clear flood" mode. It is usually triggered by flooring the gas pedal while cranking, which actually shuts off fuel to the injectors and lets the car start on just the resoidual gas that is causing the "flood".
Perhaps you could save yourself the hassle of having to monkey around with the fuses by using this mode for a non-standard application. That is, to prime your oil! If you floor the car while it is not flooded, it will still shut off fuel to the injecdtors, BUT THE CAR SHOULD NOT START! This will achieve the same result you seek without leaving the comfy encalve of your leather interior.
Now, I do not know for sure this will work with the TL. You might try it, but be sure to be ready to get off the throttle pronto if the engine actually catches so you do not over-rev.
Let us know what you find.
10-30-2001, 05:40 PM
#5
Not a Blowhole
Thread Starter
99:
Well, it is an area of particular interest, but I do need to branch out:
So, I will begin posting on:
Light bulbs, iridium spark plugs, where is the owner's manual and how do I read it?, where's my mommy?, that sort of thing - the important stuff.
Oh, and "did I get a good deal?".
Well, it is an area of particular interest, but I do need to branch out:
So, I will begin posting on:
Light bulbs, iridium spark plugs, where is the owner's manual and how do I read it?, where's my mommy?, that sort of thing - the important stuff.
Oh, and "did I get a good deal?".
10-30-2001, 05:53 PM
#6
Purchased: April 28, 2001
I personally find these posts very informative and usefull. It wasn't until Road Rage's posts on oils did I really start looking at other alternatives. Perhaps as RR grows more on to other topics would I then start to overlap and get insterested in filters myself. On my last oil change, I didnt know what filter to trust, so although I may have provided my dealer on what oil to use (redline 5w20), I went ahead and let them use whatever oil fiter they are using on everyone elses car. One thing does bother me though. I'm currently going through a gas guzzler crisis. I once were getting 375 miles per tank, but now I've recently have gotten only 275 and my gas light is already on. It wasnt until I changed my oil did this happen. Lately its been progressively getting worse and I was under the assumption that finer oils would increase gas mileage.
10-30-2001, 05:56 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Road Rage
99:
Well, it is an area of particular interest
99:
Well, it is an area of particular interest
= 
= 
Originally posted by Road Rage
So, I will begin posting on:
Light bulbs, iridium spark plugs, where is the owner's manual and how do I read it?, where's my mommy?, that sort of thing - the important stuff.
Oh, and "did I get a good deal?". [/B]
So, I will begin posting on:
Light bulbs, iridium spark plugs, where is the owner's manual and how do I read it?, where's my mommy?, that sort of thing - the important stuff.
Oh, and "did I get a good deal?".
[/B]
But that's just my opinion and I may be wrong
Trending Topics
10-30-2001, 11:57 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Lubbock, TX
Posts: 1,219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Is this true. sometimes I would just stick in the key and start my car, and it would take a little bit of hesitation. But then when i would turn the key to the "on" pos, and leave it there for like 3 secs, then turn the key, my car would start up just fine.
Dealer recommended me to do that because it starts the oil pump and pumps the oil. That true? I try to do that when i'm not in a rushy mood.
Dealer recommended me to do that because it starts the oil pump and pumps the oil. That true? I try to do that when i'm not in a rushy mood.
10-30-2001, 11:59 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Lubbock, TX
Posts: 1,219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Road Rage
99:
where is the owner's manual and how do I read it?, where's my mommy?,
Oh, and "did I get a good deal?".
99:
where is the owner's manual and how do I read it?, where's my mommy?,
Oh, and "did I get a good deal?".
I actually lost mine somehow.
10-31-2001, 12:14 AM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by 1999TL
So Is this true. sometimes I would just stick in the key and start my car, and it would take a little bit of hesitation. But then when i would turn the key to the "on" pos, and leave it there for like 3 secs, then turn the key, my car would start up just fine.
Dealer recommended me to do that because it starts the oil pump and pumps the oil. That true? I try to do that when i'm not in a rushy mood.
So Is this true. sometimes I would just stick in the key and start my car, and it would take a little bit of hesitation. But then when i would turn the key to the "on" pos, and leave it there for like 3 secs, then turn the key, my car would start up just fine.
Dealer recommended me to do that because it starts the oil pump and pumps the oil. That true? I try to do that when i'm not in a rushy mood.
The dealer's talking about priming the fuel pump(electric).
I meant literally crankin the motor with the starter without having the motor to run.
11-03-2001, 08:55 AM
#12
Not a Blowhole
Thread Starter
The dealer is thinking 1980's technology recommending pre-priming the fuel pump.
The early mechanical pumps did not maintain high pressure after shut down, and had none of the buffering systems employed with modern FI systems. Pre-priming really is no benefit - just turn the key and go go go.
The early mechanical pumps did not maintain high pressure after shut down, and had none of the buffering systems employed with modern FI systems. Pre-priming really is no benefit - just turn the key and go go go.
11-05-2001, 08:56 AM
#15
Pro
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bayside, NY
Posts: 505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey RRage, what do you think of the oil info on this site? It's a link from the DSM site:
http://www.geocities.com/chrislonghu...oil_bible.html
I remember someone had done an extensive test on oil filters as well, but I have to find it somewhere.
http://www.geocities.com/chrislonghu...oil_bible.html
I remember someone had done an extensive test on oil filters as well, but I have to find it somewhere.
11-05-2001, 10:38 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Coppell, Texas, USA
Posts: 1,514
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
check out this site, what he discoverd was that the Mobil1, Bosch, STP are all made by Bosch and are nearly all Identical inside. The only differrence is Mobil1 $9.99, Bosch $4.99, STP $2.88. This was a quick bench test and flow rates wern't tested. I donated the Amsoil filter for this study.
http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/filters.shtml
http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/filters.shtml
11-05-2001, 03:20 PM
#17
Not a Blowhole
Thread Starter
Turbo
Chris' geocities post is pretty good - I posted that link weeks ago!
I do not think that much of Castrol these days, as my expert friends tell me that the Syntecsold in the US is a cheap G3 lube and not the same as the Euro product. If that is true, it is shady in my book.
Chris' geocities post is pretty good - I posted that link weeks ago!
I do not think that much of Castrol these days, as my expert friends tell me that the Syntecsold in the US is a cheap G3 lube and not the same as the Euro product. If that is true, it is shady in my book.
11-06-2001, 03:15 AM
#18
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: tx
Posts: 973
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by edgalang
On my last oil change, I didnt know what filter to trust, so although I may have provided my dealer on what oil to use (redline 5w20),
I'm currently going through a gas guzzler crisis. I once were getting 375 miles per tank
On my last oil change, I didnt know what filter to trust, so although I may have provided my dealer on what oil to use (redline 5w20),
I'm currently going through a gas guzzler crisis. I once were getting 375 miles per tank
as for the oil info, i have never heard of redline. is it acura's brand???
11-06-2001, 08:46 AM
#19
Pro
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bayside, NY
Posts: 505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by systek
as for the oil info, i have never heard of redline. is it acura's brand???
as for the oil info, i have never heard of redline. is it acura's brand???
11-06-2001, 08:50 AM
#20
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: tx
Posts: 973
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Turboara
it's hardly acura's brand, it's a very high performance racing oil, that's pretty expensive. They make tranny fluid, gear fluid & water wetter coolant additive as well.
it's hardly acura's brand, it's a very high performance racing oil, that's pretty expensive. They make tranny fluid, gear fluid & water wetter coolant additive as well.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
IBankMouse
1G TSX (2004-2008)
8
06-13-2020 12:53 PM
