i have a 02 WDP tl, and on my way to school i was wondering how much nicer the tl would be if it had rwd. Not that i am against fwd, but it feels kinda cheezy. A car with rwd feels more powerful even tho it might now be. Anyone else feel the same way?

 

Yes.

 

I think most people on AZ would agree but the problem is 95% of TL drivers dont know the difference and assuming since RWD costs more to make Acura would probably have to raise the costs which would turn away more buyers.

 

check out thinjim on the CL board, he's doing a midmount motor + rwd, he hasn't updated since december, but its a sight to see.

 

true but for the acura enthusiast cost wouldnt matter if it had better performance and handling. Personally i would spend more money on it if it was offered.

 

I think the majority of people on this board agree with acura needing to make a RWD car soon. They are losing ground to lexus and infiniti by not having that or AWD (minus the RL) standard.
The third gen TL does actually handle better than the IS and last gen G35 coupe, but is way less fun to drive because of not having RWD.

 

This is true. I drove my friends 3g tl and it does handle pretty well for a fwd, but i think more and more people are switching over to infinity and lexus because of the rwd plus some other bogus reasons that they make up

 

Still understeers like a biotch. Now what we need is RWD plus trans mounted along with the rear diff in the back, maserati style! I have always felt that FWD is fine till you have more than 300 hp or youre on a track, but on the other hand if anyone here has had the (un)pleasure of driving a g35 coupe in the snow would come running back to FWD any day.

 

Once again I think it comes back to 95% of TL drivers wouldnt know the difference.

 

any car understeers if you dont know how to drive it

 

i know im in the minority but here in bflo, ny - FWD is almost a must for an everyday driver. i'd go for AWD though.

 

this is true, but in the 97 volvo station wagon which was rwd but a much bigger car, made the u turn on my street but the tl barely makes it.


And as for the AWD, it might be good as a optional feature but for me it would just be a waste to have a AWD tl in sunny socal.

 

The 2nd gen acura enthusiast selected this car because of cost and overall value. If cost didn't matter, most of us wouldn't be driving a damn TL, old or new for that matter.

 

+1/2

 

When you start jamming 300+hp onto the FWD TL/CL, even my grandma would have known the difference, especially with the dreadful torque steer and the massive wheel spins associated with FWD cars under heavy power.

 

Understeer is more a trait of how the car was setup suspension wise than what wheels are being powered. Its SAFER, hence why most cars are designed that way. You can with your own suspension tunning make it more neutral or slight understeer.

Oh and Snow tires will make all the difference.

 

Come drive my car with that much hp. You dont even have to hold the wheel when floored. A good diff will really help that out. (as seen in my friends 400hp maxima) Tire choice helps play a role in that as well.

Oh and in no way am i being an advocate for FWD. I will be looking else where for my next car that has RWD (and it wont be infinity or bmw )

 

I thought understeer was more of a product of having the steering wheels also do the job of moving the car. When ur comming into a turn, your momentum will push you in the direction you were going originaly and because the front wheels are getting power they lose traction and you get understeer. In an rwd when comming around the corner of you give gas you can kick out the rear end making turn more (oversteer) into that direction. I know you can counter it with suspension and front aerodynamics upgrades but you cant expect fight with the forces of gravity and enertia past a certain point.

 

I'm honestly not sure that I agree that the TL should be made in RWD. I somewhat feel as though FWD is one of the staples of Honda and Acura. True, the handling is completely different in a FWD compared to a RWD, but honestly I like the handling of a FWD car more. I feel as though I have WAY more control in turns and whatnot.

Just think about this: domestics such as the 5.0 Mustang are obviously RWD. Well take one out to the local track (not drag strip) and take it for a test run. Then, take an Integra on the same track and you tell me what handles better.

The only idea I feel as though would be a great one for the new TLs, would be the addition of all-wheel steering. It's like AWD, but not at the same time. I love the Preludes that have it. You can definetely tell the difference.

Just my opinion....

 

your right you cant fight inertia past a certain point, thats why even with a RWD car if you enter a turn too fast you're gonna understeer and go straight. Its all about driving your car to the limits, for example my car can kick the back out on on ramps and I dont even have my progress RSB yet.

Also the technique to driving FWD vs RWD is different


but it is true that in general FWD setups understeer easier, because just as Kris said, its in the suspension tuning, and flooring it while turning causes loss of traction causing you to go straight which doesnt happen in a RWD car

 

Haha you cant compare POS Garbage built on the same design as they were in the 60's mustangs to modern RWD cars. Suspenion is key, we have it pretty good on our TL's in fact our front set up is the similar to what is used in Formula 1 cars. Rustangs have a live axle in the back, terrible for cornering, when one wheels moves up or down the other has to angle destroying you contact patch between the tires and the road. Domestics have gone a long way tho, the new cammaro will be multilink in the back and promises to have a really solid ride. If its anything like the G8 from which its based on it will shine a new light on the domestic muscle car segment that rednecks love and everyone else loves to hate.

 

It is naturally inherent with fwd due to the wheels being driven are the fronts to have understeer. Rwd doesnt change that. What changes that is the gas pedals ability to get the back end to rotate. Most manufacturers dial in understeer for safety reasons. Many rwds have to be coaxed into oversteer with heavy throttle just to get past the understeer

You would have that with RWD as well. Your cornering ability is a factor of how much grip the front tires can get. Once exceeded your going to plow thru the turn regardless if its FWD or RWD. Being able to kick the back end around wont make you go around the turn any faster. A good LSD for fwd will drastically help. With one you can lay alot more power down without many issues most attribute to fwd.

Also a few track days and a driving class or 2 will greatly improve your (not you specifically) knowledge of how to drive, and how to do so alot safer, and the cars traits. Most people who are pushing their car and think they are going fast doing it aren't, and are doing it incorrectly.

 

i dont know if the tl should be rwd, but like mentioned, it wouldnt hurt if acura actually had a damn rwd.

 

And this shows how shortsighted Acura/Honda was, and now they are paying for it and will be paying for it well into the future.

By keeping FWD all these years, they can save on costs by utilizing the same platform they use for almost everything else and pass the savings on to customers. But as the competition has raised HP levels, Acura has to keep up if they want to stay in the game. Now HP levels are at the limit of what FWD can handle, so now Acura's "cheap" ways is no longer cheap since now they have to 1) use AWD systems that cost more and 2) add more power (which costs more) to make up for the added weight of an AWD system so the car can perform similar to rivals with RWD but less HP. And these costs will be passed on to the customer and/or taken up in the profit margin, which means cost cutting in other areas.

With most automakers in the near luxury and luxury segment, they offer RWD as well as AWD for the group of people who want/need AWD. They don't force AWD and the costs/weight penalties associated with it to people who don't want or need it.

So basically, Acura had the choice of paying sooner or paying later for "cheaping" out with a FWD platform for all its cars...they chose to pay later and later has now arrived.

As for driving in snow, I have had no problems with my M45 sport with snow tires, and I live in eastern PA where we get 2-3 snowstorms each year with roads really bad 2 days at most per storm.

 

100%

Andi agree as well, yes rwd driving technique is different. But to you and me it doenst have to mean that you cant get just as much out of a FWD as a RWD.

 

x2

 

I would rather have this FWD boat and then another, smaller S2000 for my RWD pleasures.

 

:Agree: But I still argue that by having the steering wheels spin on their own power in a turn will lead to reduced traction as compared to having the rear wheels do the pushing and let the front wheels do the steering. Again im not disagreeing with you, thats just the point i was trying to make before. And yeah LSD is amazing, both in your car and at your local hippies house, too bad our autos are out of luck there. And I can't wait to take a driving class on a track, I mean I've learned a thing here and there on the twistys by my house, but im not trying to get a ticket for doing 90 in 30 so i keep that to a minimum.

 

The other thing people have forgotten to bring up is weight distribution.

Most FWD vehicles have transversely mounted engines, so the engines are closer to the front of the cars over the drive wheels making it front heavy. Audi has switched back to longitudinal engine layouts to fix this, even though they are still FWD based. Acura had this with the last legend (and I think 1G RL), but has switched to the Accord platforms transversely mounted layout.

Sure, some systems like SH-AWD can help neutralize the front heaviness, but again, this is pushing weight, cost, and complexity onto people who may not want or need it.

 

I was just gonna say that but i was holding back cuz I dont know what the weight split of our cars is. Anyone know? Im sure they've made FWD with good balance, but its definately alot easier to pull off with RWD.

 

i believe Honda uses FWD for the safety and they will bring AWD for acura for safety, they will keep RWD for their "elite" performers eg. NSX S2k

 

Correct, it will reduce traction , but if your at that point it wont matter what wheels are getting the power. You MUST learn how to drive the car thru turns differently as stated earlier. The nice thing with FWD is usually once past the limit all you need to do is lift slightly off the throttle and the front end usually comes back into control allowing you to get back in the power.

 

totally disagree.

Honda uses FWD on their cars (both Hondas and Acuras) because its cheaper to use a proven platform for many models. There's no proven statistic that FWD is safer than modern RWD cars. The ONLY advantage that FWD has over RWD in inclement weather is starting from a standstill. But once moving, a FWD vehicle will not have any advantage in stopping or turning on slick/snow covered roads.

They may "claim" safety, but that's because it's more marketable than saying "it's cheaper for us to do it this way".

Same with the RDX and turbo i-4 argument...they say they went with a turbo i4 for fuel economy over a V6. This is complete bullshit from Honda's marketing people considering the i4 is getting the same or WORSE mileage than comparable compact SUVs with V6 engines (rav4 in particular). my opinion is that the REAL reason is they never intended the CR-V to have a V6, so it was never designed to accomodate it. Since the RDX is based on the CR-V, it too cannot accomodate a V6. Of course they are going to claim something other than the real reason for no V6 in the RDX because it sounds better to say, "We did it for fuel economy!" than "We just didn't plan for our competition to use a V6 and we got caught off guard".

 

oh let me clarify the FWD > RWD for safety... it is very true with winter tires most RWD cars will have no problem. However, you must realize how many idiots are on the road, look around you and you can see that majority of people have no idea how to drive for conditions, obvious by the amount of accidents after a large snowfall.... remember MOST cars are built so that they will be liked and bought by the majority of people... and yes people who can afford these cars seem like they cant drive either

 

for the most part a fwd car will have better stability accelerating and going straight.... has a RWD car never spun out in front of you before?

majority of people dont buy winter and summer tires, they just want a car to drive all year round on all-seasons

these cars are built for the majority

EDIT: remember I am talking about the population driving, not you or me or any handful of people

 

Noooooooooooo RWDs are much better a launched than FWD. 1st off its easier to get away with 245s or bigger in the back than it is in the front. And more importantly when you launch hard your car will dip in the back and lift in the front, this provides more contact area for the rear tires. it may be easier to get a RWD to spin out if you dump on the pedal but otherwise RWD is second to AWD for off the line acceleration.

 

Which makes FWD fine for Accords and Camries, but not for cars "aspiring" to be more, such as the TL. Take BMW for example...they are liked and bought by a large number of people in their particular market segment while also being RWD. Same with Infiniti (who's G outsold the TL in the WINTRY month of February). And not only that, the majority of potential buyers don't see snow where FWD could make a difference, and where it would make a difference, AWD would be the preferred option.

that's why I believe that Honda is not forcing FWD (and eventually AWD) on the TL on customers because it's "safer" or whatnot, they are doing it because they were shortsighted and cheap.

 

I've seen just as many, if not more, FWD Accords, camries, civics, etc. spun off on the side of the road as BMW's, Infinitis, MB's, etc, so what's your point?

 

Actually, I think RWD is better than AWD for off the line acceleration because you WANT some wheelspin.

For optimal acceleration from standstill, the engine revs are raised before the launch to around peak torque range optimally. If there is too much traction (as in an AWD car), the traction will prevent wheel spin and bog down the engine so the car is not launching at the ideal RPM. In a RWD car, there is less traction allowing wheel spin which allows the engine to stay in the optimal rpm range once the tires "hook up" and launch with weight transfer uniformly transferring to the tires.

 

Interesting, I guess it depends on application tho, Ive seen hooked up STi's chirp their tires at launch. Also AWD steal power away from the wheels and add extra weight.