All this talk about HP gains--the real scoop
10-31-2001, 12:43 PM
#1
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All this talk about HP gains--the real scoop
For all the talk about how so-and-so's car (as an example) now puts out 290 hp instead of 260 hp after all them mods--that may be fine and all, but such numbers don't usually reveal what they really stand for. Basically, all these numbers you guys throw out are figures for maximum horsepower, usually reached somewhere in the stratospheric range of the rpm band--in the case of the TL-S, usually around 6K rpm or so. 290 max hp doesn't mean a whole lot if you can only hit it after winding your motor practically near redline.
Sure--you slapped on some mods and gained a bit of hp up top, but how much did you gain where it really matters--midrange? Are the gains anywhere near what you gained up top? For the most part (assuming typical mods, e.g., headers, CAI, exhaust)--no. I mean, wow--I gained 30 hp at 6K rpm, but what's this? Only a 5 hp gain at 3K rpm? Nothing that would make me open up my wallet to buy it, IMHO. Then again, I don't have the deep wallets like some of you guys have.
What would be more meaningful to me would be something like, "20-25 hp gain throughout the power band"--like what the mystery mod offers, based on the dyno chart. Something like that offers more practical power/torque gains than any header, exhaust, or CAI can offer. IOW--I'd rather put on a mod that can give me a 25 hp gain across the band rather than something can give me a 70 hp gain only on top but less than 10 hp where I can really use it.
Bottom line--what good is 290 hp if the only time you'll ever see it is at a point in the power band where you don't spend the majority of your driving time in? Then again, who knows--there may be some of you guys out there who never drive below VTEC rpm.
Sometimes, absolutes aren't always the best thing to shoot for...
Tony
Sure--you slapped on some mods and gained a bit of hp up top, but how much did you gain where it really matters--midrange? Are the gains anywhere near what you gained up top? For the most part (assuming typical mods, e.g., headers, CAI, exhaust)--no. I mean, wow--I gained 30 hp at 6K rpm, but what's this? Only a 5 hp gain at 3K rpm? Nothing that would make me open up my wallet to buy it, IMHO. Then again, I don't have the deep wallets like some of you guys have.
What would be more meaningful to me would be something like, "20-25 hp gain throughout the power band"--like what the mystery mod offers, based on the dyno chart. Something like that offers more practical power/torque gains than any header, exhaust, or CAI can offer. IOW--I'd rather put on a mod that can give me a 25 hp gain across the band rather than something can give me a 70 hp gain only on top but less than 10 hp where I can really use it.
Bottom line--what good is 290 hp if the only time you'll ever see it is at a point in the power band where you don't spend the majority of your driving time in? Then again, who knows--there may be some of you guys out there who never drive below VTEC rpm.
Sometimes, absolutes aren't always the best thing to shoot for...
Tony
10-31-2001, 12:53 PM
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what's your point?
most people dont' utilize the 260hp most of the time either...yet they still have it. why didn't they just buy the 225hp version if they're going to spend most of the time under the 260hp rpm range?
why does it matter that the gains are in the high rpm ranges? if you don't think you will ever use the extra power from headers, don't get them. if you don't think you'll ever use the power from a cai, don't get them. if you don't think you'll ever use 260hp from the stock engine, don't get it...get a tl-p instead.
bottom line, people buy what they want and use what they want when they want.
most people dont' utilize the 260hp most of the time either...yet they still have it. why didn't they just buy the 225hp version if they're going to spend most of the time under the 260hp rpm range?
why does it matter that the gains are in the high rpm ranges? if you don't think you will ever use the extra power from headers, don't get them. if you don't think you'll ever use the power from a cai, don't get them. if you don't think you'll ever use 260hp from the stock engine, don't get it...get a tl-p instead.
bottom line, people buy what they want and use what they want when they want.
10-31-2001, 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by 1999TL
Oh my gosh....I give it up to the mystery mod makers. They enlisted all these followers!!@!
Oh my gosh....I give it up to the mystery mod makers. They enlisted all these followers!!@!
I think bang for the buck, mystery mod is probably the best in terms of full hp through the rpm range...
10-31-2001, 03:54 PM
#6
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Originally posted by dean078
what's your point?
most people dont' utilize the 260hp most of the time either...yet they still have it. why didn't they just buy the 225hp version if they're going to spend most of the time under the 260hp rpm range?
why does it matter that the gains are in the high rpm ranges? if you don't think you will ever use the extra power from headers, don't get them. if you don't think you'll ever use the power from a cai, don't get them. if you don't think you'll ever use 260hp from the stock engine, don't get it...get a tl-p instead.
bottom line, people buy what they want and use what they want when they want.
what's your point?
most people dont' utilize the 260hp most of the time either...yet they still have it. why didn't they just buy the 225hp version if they're going to spend most of the time under the 260hp rpm range?
why does it matter that the gains are in the high rpm ranges? if you don't think you will ever use the extra power from headers, don't get them. if you don't think you'll ever use the power from a cai, don't get them. if you don't think you'll ever use 260hp from the stock engine, don't get it...get a tl-p instead.
bottom line, people buy what they want and use what they want when they want.
10-31-2001, 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by dean078
what's your point?
most people dont' utilize the 260hp most of the time either...yet they still have it. why didn't they just buy the 225hp version if they're going to spend most of the time under the 260hp rpm range?
why does it matter that the gains are in the high rpm ranges? if you don't think you will ever use the extra power from headers, don't get them. if you don't think you'll ever use the power from a cai, don't get them. if you don't think you'll ever use 260hp from the stock engine, don't get it...get a tl-p instead.
bottom line, people buy what they want and use what they want when they want.
what's your point?
most people dont' utilize the 260hp most of the time either...yet they still have it. why didn't they just buy the 225hp version if they're going to spend most of the time under the 260hp rpm range?
why does it matter that the gains are in the high rpm ranges? if you don't think you will ever use the extra power from headers, don't get them. if you don't think you'll ever use the power from a cai, don't get them. if you don't think you'll ever use 260hp from the stock engine, don't get it...get a tl-p instead.
bottom line, people buy what they want and use what they want when they want.
You're comment about getting a TL-P instead if I'll never use 260 hp makes as much sense as this:
A typical late-model Corvette has a top speed of 170 mph or so, but it wouldn't come as a surprise if at least 90% of Corvette owners will never drive their cars anywhere near 170, especially given that there are very few places where you can get up to speeds like that without either losing control and/or getting caught by the police. Does that mean that they shouldn't have bought a Corvette?
Anyways--yes, 260 hp is nice to have vs. 225 hp; you assumed incorrectly on what my take is on mods--I never said or implied that people shouldn't get mods; heck, this is a free country and people can buy whatever they want for whatever reason. Heck, I'd get headers/exhaust/CAI in a heartbeat if cost wasn't an issue. Rather, where and what kind of performance increase a mod can offer is just as important--if not more important--than what the maximum performance gain figures are. Take the mystery mod--let's say just for the sake of argument that it and a set of Comptech headers both cost the same; if you could purchase only one of these based on dyno readings (valid or otherwise) posted on this forum, which one would you buy?
Hopefully now you see my point...
Tony
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10-31-2001, 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by typeR
you missed his whole point...the cl-S tl-S 260 has more power accross the whole range than the cl-p/tl-p....that was the same thing i tried to convey about the max...it's peak torque is higher but where?how long???
you missed his whole point...the cl-S tl-S 260 has more power accross the whole range than the cl-p/tl-p....that was the same thing i tried to convey about the max...it's peak torque is higher but where?how long???
according to tdoh:
Bottom line--what good is 290 hp if the only time you'll ever see it is at a point in the power band where you don't spend the majority of your driving time in? Then again, who knows--there may be some of you guys out there who never drive below VTEC rpm
he's saying the majority of driving time is spent at lower rpms. the way i'm reading this, he's saying that most people don't drive at WOT and go for their best 0-60mph times at every stoplight. he's describing driving style.
my arguemtn about the tl-s/tl-p is about driving style...if someone's driving style is normal, then there's no difference between driving a tl-s or tl-p. if someone accelerates from 0-60 in 9 secs in a tl-s, then he'll be able to do the same in a tl-p, whether there is more torque at lower rpms or not (according to your argument).
but my argument answering his is that there ARE people who take the car into higher rpms and DO utilize the peak power.
i can see your point and i agree, high end power isn't AS usable as midrange power, but according to dynos and performance improvements, it still IS usable. whether it's a waste of money or not, that's an individual call.
10-31-2001, 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by tdoh
My point is this--more than a few people appear to be more interested on one figure--maximum hp; maximum hp numbers in and by itself don't mean squat as far as determining how worthy a performer a vehicle can be.
You're comment about getting a TL-P instead if I'll never use 260 hp makes as much sense as this:
A typical late-model Corvette has a top speed of 170 mph or so, but it wouldn't come as a surprise if at least 90% of Corvette owners will never drive their cars anywhere near 170, especially given that there are very few places where you can get up to speeds like that without either losing control and/or getting caught by the police. Does that mean that they shouldn't have bought a Corvette?
Anyways--yes, 260 hp is nice to have vs. 225 hp; you assumed incorrectly on what my take is on mods--I never said or implied that people shouldn't get mods; heck, this is a free country and people can buy whatever they want for whatever reason. Heck, I'd get headers/exhaust/CAI in a heartbeat if cost wasn't an issue. Rather, where and what kind of performance increase a mod can offer is just as important--if not more important--than what the maximum performance gain figures are. Take the mystery mod--let's say just for the sake of argument that it and a set of Comptech headers both cost the same; if you could purchase only one of these based on dyno readings (valid or otherwise) posted on this forum, which one would you buy?
Hopefully now you see my point...
Tony
My point is this--more than a few people appear to be more interested on one figure--maximum hp; maximum hp numbers in and by itself don't mean squat as far as determining how worthy a performer a vehicle can be.
You're comment about getting a TL-P instead if I'll never use 260 hp makes as much sense as this:
A typical late-model Corvette has a top speed of 170 mph or so, but it wouldn't come as a surprise if at least 90% of Corvette owners will never drive their cars anywhere near 170, especially given that there are very few places where you can get up to speeds like that without either losing control and/or getting caught by the police. Does that mean that they shouldn't have bought a Corvette?
Anyways--yes, 260 hp is nice to have vs. 225 hp; you assumed incorrectly on what my take is on mods--I never said or implied that people shouldn't get mods; heck, this is a free country and people can buy whatever they want for whatever reason. Heck, I'd get headers/exhaust/CAI in a heartbeat if cost wasn't an issue. Rather, where and what kind of performance increase a mod can offer is just as important--if not more important--than what the maximum performance gain figures are. Take the mystery mod--let's say just for the sake of argument that it and a set of Comptech headers both cost the same; if you could purchase only one of these based on dyno readings (valid or otherwise) posted on this forum, which one would you buy?
Hopefully now you see my point...
Tony
there WAS NO MYSTERY MOD before now. there was only headers and cai...you can't criticize people on their choices when they didn't have a choice in the first palce.
i'm sure eveyrone that got headers and cai would get the mystery mod. but then i'm sure there are people that after getting the mystyer mod, would also like to have headers and cai.
whether the gains are at high, mid, or low rpms, there ARE gains, but it's up to the buyer to decide whether it's worht it or not.
10-31-2001, 08:44 PM
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Tony,
Just one thing...I'm about to deck the $hit out of my car...and I want you to know if you don't think I'm going to use all that HP lets take it out to the track
Austin519
Just one thing...I'm about to deck the $hit out of my car...and I want you to know if you don't think I'm going to use all that HP lets take it out to the track
Austin519
10-31-2001, 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by Austin519
p.s. - that was a challenge
Austin519
p.s. - that was a challenge
Austin519
Okay--you bring your decked-out car and I'll bring my puny 80-hp 2-wheeler!
Seriously, though--like I said, I'm not against getting whatever mod(s) float your boat. Now that the mystery mod is out, combined with knowing how much Comptech headers cost--it makes my decision as to whether or not I should buy headers that much easier. At least the MM gives you better gains throughout the entire power band--something that most headers can't provide, if the dyno charts prove correct; plus the dollar/power ratio can't be beat!
Anyways, I don't have a problem with people wanting to squeeze as much horsepower as possible out of their cars; for me, the TL-S has plenty of horsepower for my needs. I'd get the MM and just stop there; well, I'd probably get sways, too. I already have something that is quicker and faster than just about 98% of production cars (stock or modded) out there, and I don't even need to put a single mod on it...
Tony
P.S.: And I probably wouldn't need to use all the HP on my bike to beat your car, no matter how many mods you put on it...well, it may be close if you put a SC on it.
All in fun--I know it's apples and oranges!
10-31-2001, 11:21 PM
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Originally posted by Cycx
Say, how much are you getting paid by the mystery mod ppl??!!
Hahaha
Say, how much are you getting paid by the mystery mod ppl??!!
Hahaha
11-01-2001, 12:19 AM
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"P.S.: And I probably wouldn't need to use all the HP on my bike to beat your car, no matter how many mods you put on it...well, it may be close if you put a SC on it."
Heh heh ya know...I'll make it fair...I won't even use my car...I'll just drag out our Bayou 4x4 that my brother and I rebuilt with NOS where and when baby where and when... heh heh heh
And about mods...I agree, I just want my baby to be the most it can be. It's like buying a low end computer and buying everything that'll fit in it (which yeah, I always do)
Heh heh ya know...I'll make it fair...I won't even use my car...I'll just drag out our Bayou 4x4 that my brother and I rebuilt with NOS
where and when baby where and when... heh heh hehAnd about mods...I agree, I just want my baby to be the most it can be. It's like buying a low end computer and buying everything that'll fit in it (which yeah, I always do)
11-01-2001, 05:32 AM
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i can see tdohs point
in some aspects
i drive alot of the time in the vtec range in hiway driving,
but stop and go driving cant open her up that easily.
but i know when i bought some of these mods i was sayin to myself it wont give me much gains
its no fun if it can only give me high end
any low or mid end gains (but then again preference steps in)
then again to making your car a bit faster why not....
cai, pulleys, denso, more to come....
just a thought: when your lookin to buy an amp
you dont look for peak power no point
its rms thats important.
in some aspects
i drive alot of the time in the vtec range in hiway driving,
but stop and go driving cant open her up that easily.
but i know when i bought some of these mods i was sayin to myself it wont give me much gains
its no fun if it can only give me high end
any low or mid end gains (but then again preference steps in)
then again to making your car a bit faster why not....
cai, pulleys, denso, more to come....
just a thought: when your lookin to buy an amp
you dont look for peak power no point
its rms thats important.
11-01-2001, 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by j83
just a thought: when your lookin to buy an amp
you dont look for peak power no point
its rms thats important.
just a thought: when your lookin to buy an amp
you dont look for peak power no point
its rms thats important.
Tony
P.S.: And before someone else comes out and says that RMS isn't the only thing to look out for--true, but assuming that the amp is of decent quality otherwise, it's how much consistant power it can put out that counts, not the max. Case in point--I'm sure you've seen those cheesy "booster EQs" that claim 250w/ch output that you can find at those flea markets; need I say more?
11-01-2001, 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by Austin519
"P.S.: And I probably wouldn't need to use all the HP on my bike to beat your car, no matter how many mods you put on it...well, it may be close if you put a SC on it."
Heh heh ya know...I'll make it fair...I won't even use my car...I'll just drag out our Bayou 4x4 that my brother and I rebuilt with NOS where and when baby where and when... heh heh heh
And about mods...I agree, I just want my baby to be the most it can be. It's like buying a low end computer and buying everything that'll fit in it (which yeah, I always do)
"P.S.: And I probably wouldn't need to use all the HP on my bike to beat your car, no matter how many mods you put on it...well, it may be close if you put a SC on it."
Heh heh ya know...I'll make it fair...I won't even use my car...I'll just drag out our Bayou 4x4 that my brother and I rebuilt with NOS
where and when baby where and when... heh heh hehAnd about mods...I agree, I just want my baby to be the most it can be. It's like buying a low end computer and buying everything that'll fit in it (which yeah, I always do)
Just messing with ya there...As far as your PC comment is concerned--how true, but then again, how not true. You can put all kinds of mods into a low end computer to make it perform like a high-end one but by the time you're done with all that, something better will have come out, and for less than what you put into your low-end computer!!!!
Tony
11-01-2001, 04:10 PM
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stop complaining and just get NOS!! then you get the power you need when ever you want it. jeez Some people here drive in high rpm all the time (ME) and like to take the car out on highways(ME), but some people just never open there cars up(probably you) and alot of people w/ mods also like how it looks, sounds its just not for pure HP#'s.
11-01-2001, 07:07 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
I have to totally agree with tdoh
After 4 years of modding my V6 Accord, I realized what most mods out there are for. For vendors to cheat you into thinking it'll make power, to look good, and to move slow (20" rims)! I was miserable with a catback exhaust because it made 4HP extra up top + about 30db of freakin' noise, but do I go WOT all day? No. I was losing to stock Accords for that reason! Usable power is the word, and that's why Comptech headers and axle-back mufflers made so much more sense. It made power in the more usable and practical range. Comptech knew that a catback was useless and they were right.
The point is, unless your car is a track racer, there is no point in doing some mods.
After 4 years of modding my V6 Accord, I realized what most mods out there are for. For vendors to cheat you into thinking it'll make power, to look good, and to move slow (20" rims)! I was miserable with a catback exhaust because it made 4HP extra up top + about 30db of freakin' noise, but do I go WOT all day? No. I was losing to stock Accords for that reason! Usable power is the word, and that's why Comptech headers and axle-back mufflers made so much more sense. It made power in the more usable and practical range. Comptech knew that a catback was useless and they were right.
The point is, unless your car is a track racer, there is no point in doing some mods.
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