Hi All :

The A/C in my 99tl has been degrading and now blows the same air temp as the ambient air temp. In other words, it no longer cools. This has been happening over a number of years and I suspect that it hasn't worked properly for at least three. I still get that "ozone" smell but little or no cooling. Based on this, I'm assuming I have a very slow leak.

I have looked in to fixing it and the A/C shops want $300 to fill and test it and then another $700 (which includes another re-fill) to replace any leaking parts that they will probably find. Given that the car has a minimal value, although I only have 85K miles on it, I can't justify the $1K just to feel cool on a few hot days.

As an alternative, I'm looking at the Red Tek recharge kits ($75) from a local parts place and wanted to know if anyone has ever tried this approach ? It includes sealer gas, lubricant and replacement gas that the company says will permanently fix most minor leaks.

Anyone had any luck with these kits ?

Thanks in advance to all who reply.

smartypants.

 

ouch they are ripping you off, i just recharged mine with a $27 usd, r -134a refrigerant can from my local auto parts store.i forget what the name of the can was, but 75 bucks for a recharge kit sounds a little steep. mine blows a little cooler now, but my ac is not ICE cold, it never was.

 

I second that. We only have like a 1.45lb R134a capacity - you can buy a can of R134a from Walmart with a gauge that contains oil and stop leak for under $30. Takes 5 minutes to charge the system. You connect it to the fitting with the "L" (Low pressure) cap near the top left of the engine (looking into the hood) and press the trigger on the can until its in the "green" range.

 

Even if it is so low that you can't recharge on your own, an evac and recharge should only run $80-$120 max at a full service BP or small shop. They should see if it holds a vacuum after the evac anyway (before recharging), which is basically a leak test.

 

Thanks for all the replies. I really appreciate it.

Is there anyway I can pressurize the system and maybe use a tire guage (?) to see if it loses pressure overnight ?

I know this is quite noob-like, but I know very little about A/C systems.

smartypants

 

you can buy just the guage at parts stores, and it attaches to cans that are just cans-

Buy the can of r134 with stop leak and leak finder dye added
some come with a guage and connector if you didnt buy it seperate

its a special fitting so only the right connector/hose goes on it- not a tire guage fitting

If its completely dead flat now- you need to fix the leaks, replace the rec/dryer (moisture absorber) do a vacuum down and vac hold test for 30 minutes or more- overnight on trouble cars
ck negative pressure in the morning
If it holds vac it holds pressure - then its safe to add freon/r134

shops are heavily regulated and have to reclaim old freon and recycle it!
adds hundreds to your cost!
You often dont get brand new freon from them either- its part of that recycle process~
Buy cans on your own whiel you still can
Its a shock they do allow public sale of such hazardous stuff- but hey its America!!

how far is Toronto from the border?

 

ac is nothing for the untrained to screw with
you can literally blow up hoses and the compressor- sending shrapnel and bad chemicals everywhere

look in the Meets section for a ziner near you who knows what they are doing

 

Agreed.

 

This was the thinking as R-12 was being phased out- do you think the same thing is going to happen w/ R-134a?

 

I would still like to know if anyone has used these kits and with what result ? I'm told that the leak will go away for about a year and then return because the swelling effect on the seals degrades.


smartypants

 

stop leak is a band aid for sure -good for small problems and may fix a tiny hose leak, but not arterial loss of fluid
but in some cases will keep the loss at a minimum so you simply add a few ounces a year
If you need seals replace them- its too easy!

the can with 134-leak finder: complete leakfinder kit has yellow safety glasses, so no blacklight needed) contains 16 oz freon, 2 oz compressor oil, 2 oz leak finder dye
any additional freon needed to get to correct full level must be straight freon -no oil- the system requires a small amount and no more,, or problems arise from that

there is a vacuum pump to do the job right
or old schoolers take the engine master vac port- 20 inches vac-(the seafoam port) or a lesser vac line
rig up a plastic hose line from there to a low pressure guage/can tap. Open can tap, engine vac sucks the system down and hopefully removes moisture
It will pull neg pressure quickly -15 is good
turn can tap off and remove hose system
allow to sit overnight
ck pressure, add freon can of stuff- guage should come down to about 25-30 when its all full

an hour is easy drive to score the right stuff at the right price
never heard of 12a in 134 system. there are kits to convert from 12 to 134 for older cars
I dont know how canada runs their system

iirc there is a valve in the stem like a tire- make sure thats tight or slow leak will occur

 

In answer to your question
Yes the fixer kits work
Have used them many times in my life, keep a can of it and some cans of 134 on hand for the kids and neighbor cars

the 12a and 134 hose connectors are different to prevent accidental interlacing

expecting 100s all week.. wohoo! better change the cabin air filter and ck my pressures,,ac and tires

 

Don't confuse red tek 12a with r12 or r134a, it's neither. It's a hydrocarbon replacement refrigerant. It's not approved by any auto manufacturer as a replacement, and i believe it's flammable as well. Personally, I'd only use sealer as a last gasp repair. If you need to have your car serviced professionally, and you have sealer or non approved refrigerant, many places won't touch your car. I know many people have had good luck with this stuff, but it's just that....luck. I have seen systems that could have been fixed properly for a reasonable amount destroyed by this stuff.
I'd call around, I can't believe those prices!

 

If the federal govt. does it like they did last time, they will start taxing the shit out of it. The tax kept creeping up year after year, and you had to pay it on your inventory, even the stuff you already paid tax on the year before etc. R12, which used to be a few bucks a pound was retailing for $1000 per 30 lb cylinder. I paid about $450-$500 for the last two cylinders I bought. I still have one cylinder on the shelf and 10-15 lbs in a machine. I'm currently selling it for 134a prices, and my supply will outlast me.
While all this was going on, canada had r12 for about $125 a cylinder. For a while it was second only to drugs being smuggled into the U.S. [or so they say]

 

I have 19.5lbs (of a 30lb canister) of virgin R12 in the garage I'm looking to get rid of; had it for over 20 years now.

 

This just gets better and better.

Apparently the Canadian Government doesn't trust DIY'ers to not deplete the ozone layer and has banned unlicensed sales of refrigerant products with exception of the hydrocarbon based products (RedTek). This is why A/C repairs up here are so expensive !

I wish there was a simple way to find out if the compressor is leaking so I can either give up or find that it's a leaking "O" ring and continue on. It's not like I'm bored, I still have a 1491 code to keep me entertained !

I'm thinking giving up and just enjoying the summer heat..........


smartypants

 

Does anyone out there have a simple method of pressurizing the low and high pressure sides of the A/C system ? Apparently, it's also desirable to positively and negatively pressurize. Also, how does one remove ALL the existing freon ?

Any relatively inexpensive equipment that will do this ?

Thanks to all in advance !

smartypants.

 

You can either take it to someone to have them capture the freon in an environmentally friendly way, or you can either rent or buy a vacuum pump and do it yourself.
If you still have pressure in the system, there is not reason to vacuum pump it to remove anything. You should only vacuum the system to remove air one you've opened it up to do repairs. If you can press on the LOW side schrader valve with a screwdriver and get a puff of freon coming out, don't bother vacuuming.

You only fill the low pressure side; I've never heard of anyone filling the high pressure side. Once the system stabilizes after being turned off, both the low and high pressure sides will be at the same pressure.

 

Thanks for helping out !

 

Apparently it's already in the works. Starting next year in California, all stores will be required to charge a $10 core fee for each can of refrigerant. They will also be required to keep records of EVERY purchase.

I haven't heard when the new refrigerant will start being used but it is coming.

 

First of all, freon is not volatile or combustible.

Secondly, the system is one big loop (forget the concept of HIGH and LOW side, you don't have it quite right). When the compressor is off, the system will equalize to the same pressure everywhere. Once the compressor kicks on, the it "compresses" the gas and everything between it, the evaporator coils to the condensor coils is at a HIGHER pressure. From the condensor coils to the input of the compressor again is your low pressure side.

Regardless of where your leak is, it will leak out without even turning the compressor on. You never fill the high pressure side; you simply can't get freon into it if the compressor is on. You fill the low pressure side with the compressor running because with the compressor running, the pressure on the low side drops and helps freon exit the can.

PS: If your system is open to the air, you will also need to replace your Accumulator because it has a decassent which removes moisture (which would most surely be contaminated).

 

My car has the same symptom as yours, a/c is getting weaker every year since I bought it new in 2003. I used the wal-mart kit to recharge and it works fine now, even in 100F heat wave we had in the past week. I don't think it worth to spend few hundred $ to locate such a slow leak, recharge once every 5-6 years is not a big deal.
Just use the low pressure port (the kit only fit "L" side) to charge, also run max a/c at 60F to keep the compressor engaged all the time. I think the brand I got from wal-mart is Interdynamics.

 

Thanks Fantacy :

Glad to hear you're cool and collected ! Unfortunately, I can't get that kit up here.

Do you know if you have leaks ? Did you pressure test the system before you recharged it ? Did you use the leak-stop gas ?

Even with a small pin hole leak you will need to recharge every spring. I agree that the cost of the recharge is resonable but over time the leaks will get worse and the re-charging will last less and less of the season.

I do agree you may have the best approach to just keep recharging until it doesn't work anymore and then deal with the leaks at that point.

smartypants.

 

smarty: live up to your name and take a drive south~

I am assuming no large odd colors on ac hoses or compressor front-right-no in your face leak?
replace the orings from lines to compressor-
Note: they need a few drops of special ac oil on them at install
Shops near you should be able to provide and lube the orings from a bottle of the oil for you

the stop leak will contain a dye- so if it doesnt seal the leak it will show you where it is--need a new hose-buy it!

freon is pulled into the sytem thru vacuum- thats how the can gets empty, and you hold rpm up slighty to make it work better/faster pulling in freon

harbor frieght tools has ac guage set-high/low and the `can tap` line for testing and install of freon-- for 50 bucks right now
Also have 3/8" torque wrench for 12 dollars!!- perfect for intake manifold jobs
they also have ac vac pump for 12 bucks but must be plugged into a compressor

I previously described using the engine as a vac pump to empty the system
If its blowing ambient air--its empty

the receiver dryer will need replacement 50 bucks--thats the thing that absorbs moisture in the system and is critical to life of parts

 

harbor freight also has r134 on sale for under 10 bucks a can, 16 oz

 

Wow! Good prices on those items! Receiver/dryer can be had for about $25 at Advance Auto Parts or AutoZone. They will also carry the recharge kits and cans of R134. Surely they have car parts stores in the Great White North???

 

Fair warning......this is a total rant !! Read at your own risk.

Whenever I start looking into a technical problem, I'm sometimes amazed at the lack of foresight manufactures exhibit when designing a product for a specific purpose. Case in point is automotive air conditioning systems.

Looking at the way these systems are designed, it seems to be very unlikely that these systems are intended to last much more than the warranty period. Here you have a system that is a pressurized system, filed with an aerosol gas (that just happens to be made up of extremely small molecules), held in place by rubber-like seals. This system has a rotating “sealed” compressor that is completely exposed to the elements.

As the system is used, the compressor turns at the speed of the engine on bearings and seals that are heated and cooled by both the weather and with the use of the system. As the rotation continues, the bearing and seals gradually wear over time and the freon starts to leak and evaporate away. The other seals in the system are also subjected to the same heating and cooling and also, over time, start to leak.

The owner may notice that the A/C needs to run more frequently to keep the car interior at the same temperature (adding to the wear). This continues until it loses enough gas that it simply won't work. He then goes out to the local parts store, buys a re-charge kit that fills up the system with new gas and believes the problem is solved. At first, it lasts the summer, but each spring the system won’t cool and a recharge is performed. This goes on until the leaking gets progressively worse that the recharge only lasts a few days. The owner gives up and quite possibly sells the car.

In recent years, I have purchased two brand new vehicles (one a TL) that the A/C has not survived the warranty period. Spring comes and the first hot day the A/C doesn’t work. The service advisors in both cases told me that the A/C was under-filled at the factory and only required a “top-up”. What I have learned is this is simply not possible and the system was actually leaking. The next years I had to warranty replace “O” rings and other various small parts as each spring arrived to no A/C. This went on until the warranty ended and the next spring, it needed evaporator coils and compressors and of course, I gave up having A/C.

So why would a car manufacturers put a system in a car that was clearly designed to prematurely fail ? It’s not like it can be used outside of the specifications like an engine or a transmission. Why would you put seals in a pressurized system that are affected by heat and cold ? Why would you have a rotating part that must have a predictable failure point based on the number of rotations, that is significantly less than the average life span of the car ? Is this the best technology available or the most cost effective ? Why won’t the car companies negotiate a better warranty with the A/C component suppliers to protect their customers ?

OK, rant over………

smartypants.

 

Hi All :

I've been pre-occupied on some other fun stuff and have not been thinking of my AC problems, notwithstanding the heat wave we're having (sic!)

I was finally able to shove a screwdriver down into the low side valve and guess what...after no use for 5 years there's pressure in the system ! Not only pressure but lots of it, as I got a good loud hiss when I depressed the valve.

Does this mean I don't have leak and could it be that the freon is only low ? If I was to recharge it with r134 could I potentially solve my problem ?

Also, I suppose to drain the system I just open the valve and let 'er rip ? Isn't that like dumping used oil down the storm drain ? Is there any other options ?

smartypants

 

No dumping of refrigerant- get it to a shop for proper charging/leak detection.

 

Hi totaled :

Thanks for responding.

So, if I go to Walmart and buy a r134 recharge kit and hook up the cables, what will happen ? I'm assuming our cars are factory charged with r12 of which I'm assuming a residual amount is still in there. Can you mix r12 and r134 ? Will the car simply explode if I do that ?

smartypants.

 

I think the last yr. R12 was used in autos was 1993. R134a from then on. I was successful one time adding some R134a in another car using a can that came with a gauge. It had been cooling fine & gradually lost cooling capacity. I can't say if you would be as lucky. If you go that route read the instructions carefully before you try it.

 

This is quite the thread.

If any care to read about my plight ... it would seem currently that my 97 2.2 will keep a charge for, say, 10 days - at least, that's been my experience the last month or so (so yes, this is somewhat of a recent problem). Reading this and a handful of other threads, a few questions that may be of questionable intelligence come to mind, such as:

- Is it a bad idea to keep using the combo cans (e.g., r134, stop leak, dye) - that is, should I consider using just pure r134?

- Assuming any kind folks that respond have a good idea what it looks like under my hood (that's not a euphemism, btw), are there places I should consider examining for a leak (say with a UV light) that are not visible (or easily accessible) from the top-down vantage point?

- I'm sure putting too much into the system will result in a delightful pinata-like effect of shrapnel, but I'm curious: what if I didn't put in enough product - does that have any negative effects, will it go away quicker? Theoretically, if I were able to somehow divine the precisely correct amount, would that possibly 'fix' the problem?

- Would it be bloody obvious if when I attached the gimmick to the low-pressure valve if the seal was not 100%? That is, what if it was, say, 95%? Would that have a long-term detrimental effect, or just take longer/more product to reach the same place?

- Are there other possibilities that may have nothing to do with the line or the pressure or anything else that would not be effected by r134 refilling? That is, other parts of the whole a/c system that, as a car-dope, I wouldn't have the first idea would exist and/or be playing a part in all of this?

That all said, thank you in advance for any enlightenment you wish to share with dopes like me!

 

skip the stop leak and just fill it with r143a with a flourscent dye in it. find the leak and repair it. Compressor seals are nortious for leaking. A/C stop leak can mess up the H block or expansion valve......

btw you may not have any noticable leaks as all ac systems that have seals leak over time and a recharge would do nicely. If you want to do it right evacuate the old charge with a vaccum pump and then make sure your system holds vaccum for at least 4 hours and then recharge it with the proper amt of r134a and pag oil.

All cars USDM 1994 and newer are required to have r134a old cars like mercedes had it in 1992 forward

 

mixing is not good for your car.

Under the hood it should state what type of refigerant is used and how much. If you over charge the system you will not get cold air either as the hig pressire switch cuts the compressor out.

are you sure you do not have a problem with your blend doors?

 

Hi YeuEmMaiMai :

I think I'm fairly certain that I have r134 in the system as all TL's came from the factory. My next plan is to go the Walmart and but a r134 recharge kit and simply connect the hoses and run the pressure up to 30psi. In my last post, I indicated that he system still is holding pressure which means I don't have a major leak.

However, that does beg the question as to why it doesn't work and if it has lost a "small" amount of gas, where did it go ? I'm assuming that once the system looses a certain amount of gas, the system detects the pressure loss and ceases cooling. I suspect this as a number of new cars I have owned have had cooling stoppages fixed by "topping up" the freon. I can live with adding freon every five years if that's what resolves the problem. Not ideal, but livable.

You mentioned blend doors. I'm assumed these are vents that regulate the hot and cold air based on the temperature set on the climate control system ? Since I can't get any cold air out of the vents at all, I've always suspected the AC system. How would I test if any cold air is coming out of the AC system before it gets to the climate control system ?

I know there is a testing facility in the climate control system and I have performed this test and got an "88" code. Is this correct ?

Thanks for your help !

smartypants

 

R134a is very sensitive to charge levels and even beling low as 1/2 oz will show degraded perforamnce.

yes a common failure on these cars is the vaccum motor that controls the heat air mix.

look here regarding error 88

https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-problems-fixes-117/climate-control-error-code-88-a-642359/

another thread re no air control

https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-problems-fixes-117/2003-acura-tl-auto-climate-control-618170/

 

I don't seem to have any issues with vent control. The air seems to blows out where the mode indicates it should.

However, no cooling......

smartypants

 

u gotta do the self test

 

Does anyone know how to read the climate control codes ? Is there a list of codes and what they mean ?