crete

For moderator: I didn't see a "Comparisons" Topic to post in, so I posted in here. I Wonder if you can start a "Comparisons" discussion topic and move this over there.

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Even though I have a deposit on a MDX 2003, I'm starting to feel that I'm not really an SUV type person. I've been doing some research now on luxury Sport Sedan/Coupes.

I'm interested in the BMW 5 series, Lexus GS 430 and the Acura TL/CL type S. For the value Acura seems to be the overall winner, but the others have things about them that are quite appealing.

I'd appreciate any feedback from any Type S owners and other thoughts you may have about these cars.

I need to decide end of this month if I should cancel my order for the MDX.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Since you're looking for advise on the TL-S....This is the correct forum.

You should receive a decent amount of replies in here. The reason there is no "Comparison" forum is simply b/c it would be more of a flame-fest then useful.... so it's just easier to not have one. Compasisons are discussed in here fairly often... so feel free to do a serach as well

Good luck with your decision!!

thephantom

Here's my $0.02.

TL(s) is has more interior space than the 5 series therefore if roominess is concern you may want to go with the TL(s). The 5 series has no balls unless you get the 540(i) or the M. The Lexus GS430 is a very nice car but the styling is getting a bit dated. You may want to look into a Mercedez E class, I love the way Mercedez drives.

Good luck with your decision.

Turboara

Considering the price differences, I think its unfair to compare a TL-S to a 5 series and GS 430. IMO they are in a league above the TL-S. Don't get me wrong, I love my TL-S, but I was comparing it to a 330, A4, G35, GS300, IS300 and basically cars costing under 40K. If I really wanted to spend large $$ I'd go for the GS 430. If you are looking for value for your $$ you cannot go wrong with a TL-S, but don't think you are getting a GS430 at a great discount. That being said, if you really don't need an SUV I think you'll be much happier in a TL-S. Go test drive one see how you like it. The test drive is what won me over.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Oh.. and I'll answer your question too

Personally if those were my choices and each was within my budget I'd probably get the 540i 6-speed. I don't know which 5-series you were looking at, but that's what I would get. If you were looking at a lower model 5-series... then that changes things... and I'd probably get the GS430.

The TL-S is without a doubt the best bang for the buck... and with under $3k in mods will hang with a lot of cars, but you're really comparing cars in different leagues here. The TL-S is more comparible to the Infinity G35, Nissan Maxima, Audi A4, etc.. Acura really doesn't have an apples to apples comparison for the cars you are looking at. If you really like the TL-S and are looking for a mid-level luxury car, you'll be very happy with the TL-S. If you are looking for V8 power and a more higher end luxury car... you'd be happier with the Lexus or the BMW.. but be advised.. you will pay more too.

chiawei

Go with 530i. Also, even though 530i has only 225HP, it actually can keep up with TL-S. A good driver with a 5 speed 530i will actually beat TL-S in 0-60. Not to mention the dead 4th gear that TL has.

5 series with Sports package is tons more fun to drive even than a 540i 6 speed due to 540's re-circulating balls.

Buy a 530i and spend another 7k on the ESS S/C kit, you will eat S4 and M3 for lunch. With ESS S/C kit, a 5 speed steptronic 530i will run about 0-60 in 5.6~5.8 second. with a 5 speed manual you can run about 5.2.

vsop TL-S

Well I'm not gonna lie...if I had those choices I would have gotten a GS430..but of course, like Turboara said, it is kinda "unfair" to compare them because the 5-series and GS430 are in a league of their own. But since, I got a TL Type-S, I would recommend you get one as well...I mean for the price it is a good value and deal. That is one of the reason why I got a TL because it was a good deal for the price we pay..so yeah...Those are all good cars, but of course, being this is a Acura TL forum, there will be a little bias towards the TL's.

91M5

Yes, you can supercharge a 530i but then you have no warranty coverage. Not something I would do on a new car. If you can afford a 5 and aren't too concerned with straightline power, I am sure you would enjoy a 530i. Or, you can find a low mileage CPO 540i. When I bought our 323iT it had 7k miles and they gave us free maintenance to 55k and a 100k extended warranty. We don't have to buy anything but tires until 55k. Pretty good deal.

So, far we have had it in only once for the window regulator. It goes in next week for its 30k service with no defects.

Then again, you can't beat the price of a TL.

OneQuickFWD

The TL-S is the best deal for the money, but it's no BMW. The nice thing about acura is that you don't have all these option packages and things of that nature. You can choose the TL-S over the regular TL, and the nav system..you get everything else standard. But a beamer is a beamer..

91M5

My signature should tell you where my heart lies so I don't disagree. I can totally enjoy myself in the twisties in a low hp nimble car. 0-60 isn't everything.

By the way, it is Bimmer. I think they call the motorcyles Beemer's.

Kevin
'91 M5
'00 323iT

cycx

Well, sounds like lots of pretty good assessments already. Just want to pipe it and give concurrence:
a) apples and oranges,
b) if you've got the money, go for the bimmer or the lexus,
c) TL/CL-S, bargain luxury with power on tap, but don't expect a lexus or bimmer

acuraguynj

The TL Type S is definitely the best value out of the 3.

I used to own a 99 TL and now own a 01 GS430 and 03 330i (Go figure - a little diversity in my garage - The Japanese and Germans can get along! HA!).

A family member of mine owns a 01 530i. This is my take on things.

1. Fun to drive aspect, sportiness & looks - go with the BMW 5 Series with Sports Package. Not sure how much you want to spend, but the new 2003 540s come with the M Sports Package which makes it look exactly like the M5, which is beautiful.

2. Reliability and Service - Go with the GS430, since it is rated among the best cars in reliability and Lexus Service is always top notch.

3. Refinement - Smooth 300HP V8 with somewhat decent gas mileage - Go with the Lexus GS430, there is something so smooth and powerful about this V8 that it's incredible.

4. Acceleration and power - If you are thinking about the 5 series, even the 530, German Horsepower feels quicker and more powerful than Japanese Horsepower. Even the 530 with 225HP feels like a rocket and is so smooth. I can't even imagine how the 540 would feel like. There seems to be more kick in the German cars, where as the Japanese cars, even the really GS430 kicks in at crusing speeds

5. Steering Feel and Handling - this is BMW's strongpoint. The Steering is nice and tight and the handling from stock is very good. The stock Lexus is more floaty and the steering loose so you have to pay more for afternmarket enhancements such as L-Tuned. You figure you pay so much for a car, you should get it all, but it's missing in the Handling and Steering for the Lexus.

6. NAV SYSTEM & Sound Package - The Lexus Touch Screen is by far the superior NAV and the Mark Levinson can't be beat. BMW is not even close in this arena.

7. Value - You can't beat the value of a TL Type S compared to these other cars. You get so much more for less money!

By the way the 03 330i replaced my 4Runner, which I also came to realize, I am not a SUV person and I just love cars. But I went for a Bimmer instead of another Lexus, because the Bimmers are so damn fun to drive and I wanted something sportier too.

Good luck with your decision and keep us updated! Anyway you go, you can't lose!

asloudasitgets

damn!!!!!!

lexus gs430 is like 52,000
acura tls 33,000 at most
5 series unless its a m5 its ****ing ugly.

rominl

this is like comparing apples to oranges. i agree totally that the tls is the best value out there, it's hard to beat that for sure. it's entry level luxury sedan, sporty, fast, and very cheap.

however the 5 series (i assume you would get the 540i right? coz' the 530 is slow...) and the gs430 is way more expensive. out of the door price for the tls is 34000, gs430 would be around 56000, and the 540i sport would be around 60000. that's like double the price of the tls.

but then of course, imho you get what you pay for. the tls is no match to the gs430 and the 540i in terms of quality, features, and performance. those two are v8 we talking about, they are beasts. both cars are very fast, a lot faster and smoother than the tls. handling wise the tls might actually beat the gs430 a bit coz' the gs430 is soft and luxury, but the 540i would blow the two other cars away by a mile.

quality wise i believe the gs430 would have the best quality. it's a lexus, so there you go. the bimmers are always known for their electronic problem especially the 5 series.... the tls we all know about the tranny issues and also the rattling

so like i said it's apple and oranges, the tls is not in the same class as the gs430 or the 540i. the tls is an entry level sport sedan, but the lex and the bimmer are both luxury sedan. what would i get? if i have the money i would get the gs430 for sure, with mods that car is incredible (both speed and handling). the next would be 540i but i would sell it in 2 yrs. for the best value of course, tls for sure

noir

Again, couldn't agree more with juniorbean and rominl....all depends on your budget, if its not a problem (which I doubt coz other wise you would not be thinking about value) then I would go for 540i sports package (or even m5 for that matter)...first choice, no doubt, then definitely the gs430......tl-s would be last, but then again....tl-s is a lot cheaper......

roadman

Crete,

It would seem that the three cars that you want to compare really do not compare. Perhaps you would like to share with us what makes you want to consider each as a competitor. The if money is no object scenario really does not apply to the formula when you actually go out any purchase one of these fine cars.

samkws

i would pick 5 series or the new E-class

Ray_Khan

are you on crack????? BMW USA list the Auto at 7.0 and the manulat 6.8 seconds. Add an SC and I'd expect about. a second less at best. I wouldn't mess with a supercharger unless you went with a manual tranny and even then, the compression ration of the engine is 10.2:1....I'd be nervous about voiding my warranty and having a tricky engine to tune. Tuning for German cars is a different ball game than for Japanese cars. The Bosch motronic engine management system is very complicated. I wouldn't mess with anyone except Dinan for tuning the Bosch ecu. If you are buying a car to mod, I wouldn't suggest a luxory car. I'd go with a car that already has some sort of forced induction engine, that way the internal are going to be stronger to handle an increased load. You are asking for trouble if you sc a 5 series. Look at it this way...a good supercharger kit with all the plumbing and software and injector adn a warranty will be about the difference in cost between a 530 and 540...I'd rather get the V-8 power of a 540 and the M sport suspension package. And keep my warranty.

As for cokparisons fo these cars. Most people here are pretty much dead on. The TLS isn't nearly as costly as the GS430 and 530 or 540. The TL is a nice, reliable, comfortable good looking and adequately powered sports sedan. It's a simple buy in that there are no options and no packages. It's just with Nav or without. It's by far one of the best buys on the market.

I don't kow much about the GS other than it's faster and maybe a little more reliable than a TLS...but in general, they are both a lot more reliable and less expensive to maintain than any german car. Especially out of warranty. When you start paying to maintain your german car...be prepared to open your wallet.

The other fundmental difference in the cars is the feel. German cars tend to have sportier suspensions. The stock BMW suspension is crap. Way too soft for a sports sedan. The TLS one is much sportier and not jarring at all. The sports uspensions by BMW are a whole different story. These cars handle very well with the factory sports suspensions. They make the best factory sport suspensions out there. But like anything BMW, they are a rip off. It's much cheaper to upgrade wheels/tires/shocks/springs on your own. The bottom line is the RWD and weight deistribution makes these cars a blast to drive with teh right grip and suspension tuning. Just remember, a good performing sport suspension will be a firm ride. You may not mind but your passengers might. With all that said...I would get a 540 sport if I could afford it. The BMW is the only car in the group that has the option of a manual tranny. That is key for me. If I had to choose bettween the TLS and the GS430...I think economics would win. I don't think the GS is $2o grand better than a TLS. IF I had $50K,,,,I would be in the 540 or an Audi in that price range. For $30k and a few bucks in mods a TLS would be my choice over a GS. They are all great cars imo.

BTW...I don't own a TLS...so I am not biased.

thephantom

You can also supercharge a TLS. Why not get the CLS 6 spd + Headers + Supercharge + soft rubber contacts?

rominl

+ that much power in a FWD car + no able to put any tires wider than 235 or 245? very bad idea. too hard to control the car. it will understeer badly. my gs4 is stock power-wise and has 275 tires in the back, i have no problem spinning my tires or skid when turning. with that much power RWD is a must before you lose control of the car.

ferizzo

personally if money was not an issue I would pick the GS430! I love that car. Although it supposed to be redesigned in the next year. I like the 540s as well so that would be a close second. If we are talking 6 cylinders then TLS or G35 would be the way to go. I agree with what most people have said so I won't reiterate those statements.

SCWells72

I had an Acura TL and now have both a Lexus GS430 (L-Tuned) and a BMW Z3 2.8-5M. I've driven the TL-S, the 540i-6M, and the G35.

BMW engines are generally faster than their ratings, or at least they feel that way. However, as a BMW owner I can definitely say that the service experience is horrible compared to Acura or Lexus.

The GS430 with L-Tuned steering and suspension handles VERY well! I still can't believe how nimble my GS feels, and it definitely takes off like a rocket! However, as people have pointed out, it's priced substantially higher than a TL-S.

If I were shopping the $30-35K sport sedan market right now the G35 would get my money, particularly the manual transmission version due for release late '02-early '03.

The TL-S is a fantastic car and a great bang-for-buck proposition, but after driving FE/RWD I couldn't go back to a FE/FWD vehicle no matter what suspension mods can be applied.

So my recommendation would be: new car $30-35K, G35; used car $30-40K, used GS400; used car with manual tranny $30-40K, used 540i or A6 2.7T Quattro w/APR chip.

Hope that helps!

mikegunnz

Wow, alot of good points have been made....now I could add something of value to this conversation.
But all I got is 2 words for ya. A care that will blow the doors off all the aforementioned vehicles.
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The Kia Spectra!!!
Yeah Baby!!!

ferizzo

You can get a whole fleet of them for the price of a GS4 or 540! Now thats smart thinking!

91M5

What? Not true at all. Most sport package options not only include shocks, springs, swaybars and wheels but a steering wheel and seats as well.

Sports package for '02 540ia (6 speed gets it standard):

Sport Package
Includes STEPTRONIC driver-selected full automatic or automanual shift modes, performance rear axle and torque converter, M Sport Package consisting of M Aero Kit, M suspension II, M headliner and M footrest, power sport seats, high gloss Shadowline trim, 18" alloy wheels with P235/40R18 front and P265/35R18 rear performance tires and M sport steering wheel.

That lists for $4100

For the 3: Sport Package Includes sport suspension, sport steering wheel, 17" x 8" alloy wheels with P225/45R17 performance tires and front sport seats. $1,400

Do that with aftermarket parts for $1400 and I would be impressed. $400 for Bilsteins, $350 for Eibachs, $350 for sway bars, conservatively say $500 for the steering wheel and $1500 for tires and wheels (which is low). That is way more than $1400.

I also think that for street driving their sport suspensions are near perfect. I have something more intense on my M5 but I track it also. My wife's 323iT is just a perfect blend of comfort and performance (which most Japanese car drivers would likely find objectionable).

rominl

91m5, what suspension you got on your m5?

crete

Thanks to all of you for your honest and informative replies to my vehicle comparisions. I know I really shouldn't compare the TL-S to either of these other cars when you look at price vs features, but I was drawn to these three for several reasons.

The BMW has great styling and quality materials, good power, sporty ride in a very luxurious interior.

The Lexus has good styling although less exciting than the BMW, good quality build materials, good power, although not as sporty as the BMW still a good smooth quiet ride in a luxurious interior.

The TL-S has good styling which I like better than the Lexus and almost as good as the BMW but not quite. Good quality build materials, good power for its engine class, reliablity proven, good quality ride in a luxurious interior.

So as I try to evaluate these cars, I need to look at what is important to me and what is practical for my needs.

If I was looking at ride, styling and features, the BMW would be the one. But the price (540iA, MSRP w/options is approx $58K) is really not practical for me. The Lexus would almost come out to about the same ($3-5K less MSRP w/options).

It seems to me that the TL-S is the better value for the price ($38K MSRP w/options). It just might be that the TL-S can provide a good balance of ride quality, good styling and reliabilty that can't be overlooked. So I'm going to my Acura dealer for a test drive and see if all of you are right on with your comments. Somehow I think you are.

thanks for all your help.

roadman

Crete,

As you state , if the 540 and gs430 prices are not practical for you then your selection of sedans was only down to one choice, the TL-S. Recalling that you wrote that you already are locked in to Acura because of your deposit on an MDX, it would seem like the choice you had was limited to two, the MDX or the TLS. Either way you will be getting a good vehicle for the money.

Ray_Khan

very true...not all sport packages are the same. But I was counting on selling the parts you replace just as the price of the sport package is little more than the difference in price of the parts sport vs non sport to BMW. Use the stock wheels for snows and buy some nice 17's or 18's depending if you like sho or go. Then sell the stock parts to some shmuck on ebay who will pay as much as they cost from a dealer. But you are right...the sport package is a good deal. I guess i was thinking more of the Audi line but talking BMW. Audi doesn't make as competent a sport pakcage as BMW. So when I bought my car I specifically bought non sport sicne I knew I would upgrade components either way. And of course the biggie in the whole mix is that with a B<W sport package, you retain your warranty.

1SICKLEX

How anyone can compare a 30k FWD V-6 car based on the Accord to 55k RWD V-8 luxury cars is totally beyond me. TL-S is a great value for 30k, I'd look at the G35 too. Styling is subjective.

Good Value, what is the definition of it? IMO, the GS is a Good VALUE cause it offers everything the 5 does for 5k less. A car offering less and is cheaper is just a car offering less that is cheaper, not a good value.

The M45 is a good value compared to other V-8 sedans cause it offers similar equipment for a cheaper price, that is a value.

TL-S is IS 300/3 series competition.

roadman

Ray_Khan,

91M5 rational makes perfect sense. Yours is based on your success in convincing someone to pay the same price for your used parts as they would pay for brand new ones from BMW.

The factory sport package would also add more to the resale value of the car, doing it yourself most likely will not.

Monte TLS,MAX

I agree!

Ray_Khan

roadman....you are correct.....I retorted adn agreed with the statement 91M5 made. There is a clear advantage in going witha factory sport suspension if it is what you want. You get warranty and resale. BMW does offer a complete one. Sme other manufacturers don't. I made the mistake of geralizing when I was really talking about BMW sport packages.

I also got my own values confused in the whole thing...I didn't buy my car as an investment, i'm more concerned with ejoying my car then worrying about the resale value...most people don't think this way. The other thing is that a factory sport suspension won't do it for me. I want more. Not to say a factory sport package isn't a good thing...it is great for most people. I prefer to go with higher rate springs and better quality shocks. When it comes down to it...I would prefer super high rate springs and no sway bars orvery light ones so as to have the cars suspension as independent as possible. Again, that is my taste...not the general publics. In considering a car like TLS...you probably don't want to do somthing like this because you bought the car as a comprimise between practicality and sport...not because you want a sports car.

As far as selling parts goes...you shoudln't count on getting much for them...but they can be sold for some decent $. Ebay is a wonderful tool where people who are very poorly informed shop :>)

Mr Hyde

Totally different league of cars. If you have the 60K though, Id go with a 6 speed 540 or give the new E a serious look as well, theres also the option of a Tl-S plus another car. either way it all depends on what you need and want at the moment, but I would compare the GS430 and 540 picking the 540 of the 2. The TL-S isnt in that league no matter how fast you make it.

1SICKLEX

The new E 500 is 65k LOADED!!! It does have a lot of new technology though. I love the 2 sunroofs.

Raheel

I think a Acura RL is more in the league of The Cars your comparing.. Now how much are you willing to Spend? $30,000 or $60,000 you arent saying... http://www.carsdirect.com/research/n...des/luxury/mid

samkws

my dad will go for a E320 for sure....he's a big MB fan

crete

The RL is probably more in the range of these other cars, but does it have a Type-S configuration?

Since I already have a deposit down for the MDX at $42-44K, I'm OK to spend from $35K - $45k. However I really like the 5 series and Lexus for the reasons I mentioned earlier, but I'm starting to be practical and see that $55K+ is not within my price range. By asking all of you to compare to the TL-S, I've gotten a better feeling about the TL-S as a car that can deliver good performance with luxuory features at a reasonable price. I know the TL-S shouldn't be compared to these other cars, but these were the ones I was interested in and if I really wanted to have them, I'd find a way to pay for it (actually get into debt for it).

I didn't care much for the G35 looks and styling or the IS300 from Lexus. Does it mean I'll have to settle for less with the TL-S, after reading most of your comments I don't think so. Once I take a test drive in the TL-S, I'm sure it will help me get the other $55K+ cars out of my mindset and make me see just how good a value the TL-S is.

Thanks for all your comments, it sounds like TL-S owners are proud of their cars and have no regrets about owning one.

ferizzo

I love my car (TLS) but to give you more options I'm sure you can find a very low mileage CPO 2000 GS400 or 2001 GS430 for around 45K. As a matter of fact I just looked on Autotrader and found plenty of CPO 2001 GS430s with under 20k miles and for less that $46k. Good luck in whatever you choose.

Or you can be a lucky bastard like rominl and own both!!!

rominl

who mentioned me well owning two cars definitely isn't easy, specially when you mod both.... it all comes down to good deal or not. i got a killer deal on the gs4 and even if i sell the car a yr later i will still GAIN money.... so why not