After the 2009 mmc, one wonders when the 3G RL will come and what form it will take. With the majority of rumors and a few not-so-rumors indicating that V8 and V10 engines are off the table for Acura, Honda, and RL/Legend, I think it's safe to assume that won't be the path we go down. Likewise RWD is pretty much off the table, as is establishing Acura as a Tier 1 luxury brand. Beyond that you have speculation and not-so-speculation of a lineup of hybrids "Acura style" and the whole RL/TL overlap issue which seems to really need to be addressed.

While I usually throw up a bit when I hear hybrid, especially with Honda/Acura, a company that is more than anything an engine making powerhouse, I suppose that route has to be considered. Honda's got a bit of a star crossed history with the tech. The 1G Insight never transitioned from whack job tree-huggers to hipsters ala Prius, and Honda never quite got the PR they deserved from the solid, albeit far from mainstream tech. The Civic Hybrid was the anti-Insight, as it was far more practical and mainstream, but it never looked the part, as the Prius (and 1G Insight) did, so it never appealed to the "look at me. I'm better than you because I have hybrid" crowd. It also seemed to suffer a worse than usual drop in real world vs EPA numbers. The Accord Hybrid was innovative and in many ways similar to what one finds in BMW and Lexus offerings, but it never was understood by the marketplace that the Accord played in, and again Honda's hybrids missed the mark. The 2G Insight joined that club by having too great of a focus on cost reduction and thus being bested by the 3G Prius in just about every regard (size, fuel economy, power, "Hippi cred", ect...). One wishes all of this R&D would have went to making a diesel that can run sans urea and with Acura's transmissions (both rumored to be issues with the TSX Diesel, but funds were limited to fix).

The 3G RL could use a hybrid system like the earlier gen Accord, and if paired with a competent J series V6 (or better yet a next gen one), it would be a win for all. Sadly the RL is a bit of a hefty car without batteries and motors despite using aluminum, magnesium, and carbon fiber (in modest amounts). I suppose a hybrid RL wouldn't need a 19 gallon fuel tank, and at it's price point lithium ion batteries are an option. Further weight savings could be had by replacing SH-AWD with a FWD + electric motors in the rear setup. A disappointing solution unless the motors in the rear were rather powerful to balance out the available power up front. All in all, this may be the most likely scenario.

Another option is a new DOHC J series replacement with direct injection, and perhaps a turbo. Sadly this (direct injection) seems unlikely given public comments regarding direct injection (often bundled with scary comments regarding engine R&D being focused on engines for hybrids). Regardless of the DI issue, a new V6 of some kind is necessary and is rumored to be in the works. A smaller V6 with some technical improvements could yield gains in fuel economy and weight without sacrificing power. Throw on a turbo, and you may have the best of both worlds (basically everything Ford's Ecoboost claims to be). I think this is the 2010 dream state (ie with no V8 or V10 option). Throw in start/stop and weight savings all around, and you have a "Smart Luxury" winner. One can hope.

Another possibility is a serial hybrid (ala Chevy Volt) with electric motors driving ll the wheels. This is a bit of a switch from Honda's mild hybrid history, but it could work, especially at the RL's price point. Even a small 4 cylinder properly tuned could provide enough current for a nice setup.

Lastly there's the doomsday scenario, as unless the RL radically changes, there really isn't room for two overlapping cars in a lineup that isn't selling in huge numbers. If the RL isn't some kind of halo car, either in terms of luxury, performance, or eco-ness, how is it different from the TL? Since the TL sells better, wouldn't it be the likely victor?

Where do you see the RL going? Do you want to go there?

 

Forgot to include A-VTEC as a possible source of enhanced performance in a new V6, which may well end up being SOHC (due to some of the possibilities of A-VTEC).

 

i think a smaller v6 turbo would be the best option for fuel economy and customer satisfaction, seems like the turbo is going to really come into production in the years to come, i think the m5 is now v8tt instead of v10 all motor....

 

I recommend a search. We discuss this topic on a regular basis. I am hopeful that Acura knew what they were talking about when they told dealers recently to expect an "amazing flagship" (assuming they meant the RL).

 

I've read the rumors/statements at TOV, Autoblog, Jalopnik, etc... as well as even the local newspaper (Columbus has a huge community of Honda folks nearby including those who build TLs and RDXes and design the whole lot of Acuras).

I was mostly looking for reactions/opinions/perspectives to the entirety of it all.

 

Well, my response is.....

TampaRL! Get back here from Antarctica and pick up your pitchfork! We're headed to Torrance to give the leaders at Acura some what-not!

Seriously.....with its design change and the loss of enthusiast-oriented cars, Acura has successfully pi$$ed off much of its owner base, me included.

I was on the V8/RWD bandwagon for the RL and am bitterly disappointed that it isn't going to happen. I want simple things of the next RL at this point:

a) get rid of the ugly grille, or at least make it proportional to the size of the grille in a pleasing manner.
b) in relation to a) above, give us a slamming style that looks good coming and going. My CTS-V fits this criterion.
c) more torque, especially low-end. This can be accomplished with DI or with a hybrid setup.
d) FWD option rather than SH-AWD alone....many people in warm areas don't understand that SH-AWD works to their benefit even in dry weather. Acura should acquiesce and offer these folks FWD as an option (since RWD ain't happening).

 

What brought me to Acura:
- Great Blend of Styling / Tech / Performance
- Perceived "Luxury Dealership Experience"

Why my next car is not likely to be an Acura:
- Lack of Styling (Grille) / Performance (RWD/V8) / Stale Tech
- Reality of "Luxury Dealership Experience"

I'll likely look at Lexus (Newly available Sport package on LS460) first, then MB / BMW (Nice availability of choices, albeit at higher prices than Acura. Plus, better keep the extended warranty)

I love my RL - I'm just bummed that Acura doesn't want to keep making cars like that anymore.

 

stale tech?

 

Well in terms of stale tech, in 2004 when the RL/Legend was launched:

• the 300hp (quickly changed to be 290hp by today's measures) was among the most potent NA 6 cylinders
• that engine, while not a V8, offered power similar to many 8 cylinders (that soon changed)
• it used VTEC, which through its evolutions remained the state of the art enhancement for NA engines
• SH-AWD, while not RWD was the state of the art in terms of production torque vectoring

since then:

• most other manufacturers caught up with their NA 6 cylinders
• V8s became more potent, and a larger gap was created with peers
• many manufacturers implements direct injection, in addition to variable valve timing to surpass Honda in terms of power/displacement
• many manufacturers exploring turbos
• "green" or "blue" diesel engines from other manufacturers offer loads of low end torque and better mileage
• many manufacturers have dual clutch transmissions either in use or coming soon
• VTEC then is VTEC now (though improvements have been researched/patented)
• SH-AWD has been reduced in scale for other vehicles (but enhanced for RL)
• same general power in Acura powerplants
• troubles with new slushbox (MDX/ZDX)

All in all seeing so many Hyundai, Nissan, and Ford engines on the Wards 10 best engine list with tech that isn't in any prod Honda engines is scary, but I'm willing to believe that Honda knows what their doing and DI is either not all it's cracked up to be (maybe they know something others don't?) or they have something better in the works. Then you hear comments from the top saying that the focus of engine development is building better engines to work with hybrids. That's scary.

The whole NSX thing seems bizarre. From all I've read it was good to go. Maybe some Honda over engineering remained, but it was for all intents a car that was ready to sell, and they know it would have sold. With all that sunk cost in R&D (some likely to be applicable elsewhere), I find it hard to fathom why be so fixated on killing it because it just didn't fit in the new image (the Clarity is Honda's "Halo" car?). I can only think whatever future is in store will not have much in terms of traditional performance.

I never saw the goal of being a "tier 1" luxury brand as that important, especially with so many brands clamoring for a limited market, which may not be that profitable even in the best of times. Toyota is by far a bigger company with greater resources (and a recent history of strategy errors), as is Nissan (when your consider Renault), VW, and the like. Smart Luxury to me is where Acura was when they first set out, and I think they can thrive there.

I'd start by making core tech like SH-AWD a fundamental brand tenant, found on all vehicles (similar to Subaru or Audi). That would be a waste if people didn't know it was there or what it was worth, which sadly is the case today with shitty adds that appeal to ... I don't know. Safety, reliability, and resale value are all great features, and to be honest they are a part of why many of us buy Acuras, but it doesn't really get ones passions excited. Acura should be an exciting brand, even without RWD and V8s, and even in light of new economy (and fuel economy) realities.

I'd start by having engine options on all models. The current base engines could assume their roles, but offer an upgrade on all vehicles, including the RL. These shouldn't be bigger or harm handling (I'm looking at you TSX V6), and turbo charging (even with light boost like the RDX, but hopefully with better packaging) can do wonders. Heck a DI NA engine can come in different levels of tune. These models should come with a bit more aggressive suspension, nothing too extreme, but along the lines of A-Spec (and not some kit you put on yourself, something that comes from the factory).

If one is so worried about fuel economy, develop a 3.0 liter (turbo) diesel. I'd give up some HP for low end torque, 30-40mph, and a 500+ mile range. Oh Acura engines shouldn't be available in any US market Honda--just Acura (an Accord shouldn't have close to the power of a RL). Likewise a dual clutch transmission should be available on all Acuras.

This isn't too much to ask, as much of this is available in VW and Ford have similar tech.

 

What troubles are there with the MDX/ZDX 6 speed. There are so few ZDX's available, I am surprised there are troubles already!

What have you heard?

Thanks

 

Why do you think the ZDX hasn't launched (in the US at least) or the 2010 MDX?

Ideally the ZDX would have launched before the Crosstour, but it was delayed, as was the MDX. I've read that the same 6 speed transmission was originally intended for the 2009 RL but was dropped due to earlier delays. It's good that they're fixing it before they go on sale, but it's still been a challenge and really isn't much more than a 6 speed slushbox (not dual clutch).

 

The odd thing is that it took a good 4-5 years before they got the issues worked out on the 5AT. I hope they took the slow approach with the 6AT to make sure it’s not going to have any of the random failures that the 5 speed had. The last thing they need right now is to have more transmission issues. Sadly it seems as though Honda isn’t keeping up with tech as far as powertrains go, Hell even the Camry has a 6AT (though it had its own problems)… Honda got a lot out of the J-series and the 3.7L TL is awesome but it still has only 305 HP where the Taurus SHO gets the same mileage and has 365 HP. I know I’m comparing turbo to NA but the SHO has a very efficient power plant, and that’s where Honda needs to be. I don’t care if it takes a turbo, hybrid… whatever as long as the car doesn’t gain a lot more weight. Honda isn’t the MPG leader it once was and the cars aren’t any more reliable then most others. Now, I do know the interiors aren’t really comparable since I’ve sat in both the TL and the SHO back to back. But it’s hard to argue with the whole package that the SHO brings. For the next gen RL to compete in this Market place it should have in this order…

Amazing and distinctive looks
Hybrid or turbo v6 w/ 400 HP
Rear bias SH-AWD (or better yet have it so the driver can select the bias)
7 AT transmission (I know that’s not happening)

Wow it was hard to say that as a honda fanboy LOL

 

I'm really starting to worry about Honda's ability to get the most out of hybrids. The original Insight seemed to be more research project than practical transport, but it seemed to do its thing well. The Accord and Civic seemed to do their things well, but the new Insight and CRZ seem lost.

I seriously doubt Honda couldn't get better MPG with a tried and true ICE than the Insight's 40MPG. The Prius seems to offer a hybrid advantage, but the new Insight is all smug. CRZ? No one has driven it yet, and it may be a blast, but barring that, same story. A Mini and many other vehicles get better MPG for the same segment, and again Honda could certainly do better with just a solid ICE. Don't even get me started on what a diesel could do.

What's next a 3G RL that gets 17/25mpg with the help of a hybrid? That Taurus is starting to look mighty good (unless the hybrid has mighty low end torque to justify its existence).

Maybe electric motors aren't Honda's thing. They make generators that are top shelf--engines too ... hmmm what about using regenerative braking and a upsized alternator to provide power for a real electric supercharger. No difficult plumbing of exhaust pipes, no lag, and reduced need for an intercooler. It could boost efficiency, provide extra power, and make the car a blast to drive.

 

I would SOO love a turbo diesel SH AWD RL !!!!!

 

+1 on that. Great post.
You've basically summarized all the reasons why I've left at the time I've left.

 

+2 on Rev Olaf's post. Well-written.

I just filled out another Acura Owner's Panel survey that covered some of these very topics.

 

Me too!

 

Interesting article on another forum on what could have been for Acura.... The new CEO seems to say we are living in the past...
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...item_id=874857

Q: Some Acura enthusiasts are concerned because there is talk that Honda won't be introducing a V8. What is your strategy for Acura?

A: There has been a big change in the market since the Lehman shock coupled with a heightened concern about CO2 emissions. This has caused us to rethink the direction we need to go. Big engines for luxury vehicles are a thing of the past. We had actually already developed an FR V8 prototype which achieved very good performance, but we canceled that program to focus on a new powertrain to fit the "Smart Luxury" direction we have established. We won't sacrifice performance, but the importance of developing smart and efficient vehicles is something we are working to do even faster. The power-to-weight ratio is the key to performance so we will pursue a similar direction that we set for the NSX when it was under development.