Should I Replace Engine?
10-22-2014 | 02:07 PM
#42
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Cruisin'
Joined: Oct 2014
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Gonna weigh the options tonight with my wife. We shall see.
10-22-2014 | 02:25 PM
#43
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 624
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From: Seattle
Hello all, and first thank you for all of your help the past couple of days! 
All of your questions and thoughts led me to watch a lot of you tube and I learned a lot about what the noise might mean, how to do the potential repairs, etc. That research and the info I have learned here allowed me to confirm the dealer was not communicating the whole story to me, so I went down there and raised some
questions. I should add to this that I have been buying cars from the Bobby Rahal group for over 14 years, so I also felt I had some firm ground to stand on.
I spoke to the Service Manager and the Technicians that diagnosed the issues. One of the techs has been there for 20 years and the other was relatively new, but they knew a whole lot more than I'd been hearing from the Service Advisor! Here is what I learned:
- The noise is a bearing rod or rod shaft noise noise. The noise gets faster and more defined when the coil pack is pulled from cylinder 2. When the other coil packs are pulled there is no change in the sound. He stated there is more space than there should be between the bearing and the ring and the bearing is therefore jumping around.
- To diagnose the true problem will take 12.2 hours which results in the removal of the sub-frame, oil pan and pulling the cylinder heads ($1200)
- To rebuild will take 20.4 hours and would include these parts: connecting rod (machined), connecting rod bolts, piston rings, crankshaft ($3300) -- Note, if damage is found in the cylinder there would be additional parts/labor.
- So we are looking at a minimum of $4500 to diagnose and rebuild.
The replacement engine option:
- 74k mile motor ($1625)
- reuse of all the key good parts from my car, belts, plugs, pumps, etc.
- replace rear main seal
- labor ($936)
- Total ($2637)
I feel like I now have all of the info to make an informed decision. If I decide to sell the car as-is I will contact those of you that have expressed interest. Thanks again for all of the help! You folks are
!
All of your questions and thoughts led me to watch a lot of you tube and I learned a lot about what the noise might mean, how to do the potential repairs, etc. That research and the info I have learned here allowed me to confirm the dealer was not communicating the whole story to me, so I went down there and raised some
questions. I should add to this that I have been buying cars from the Bobby Rahal group for over 14 years, so I also felt I had some firm ground to stand on.I spoke to the Service Manager and the Technicians that diagnosed the issues. One of the techs has been there for 20 years and the other was relatively new, but they knew a whole lot more than I'd been hearing from the Service Advisor! Here is what I learned:
- The noise is a bearing rod or rod shaft noise noise. The noise gets faster and more defined when the coil pack is pulled from cylinder 2. When the other coil packs are pulled there is no change in the sound. He stated there is more space than there should be between the bearing and the ring and the bearing is therefore jumping around.
- To diagnose the true problem will take 12.2 hours which results in the removal of the sub-frame, oil pan and pulling the cylinder heads ($1200)
- To rebuild will take 20.4 hours and would include these parts: connecting rod (machined), connecting rod bolts, piston rings, crankshaft ($3300) -- Note, if damage is found in the cylinder there would be additional parts/labor.
- So we are looking at a minimum of $4500 to diagnose and rebuild.
The replacement engine option:
- 74k mile motor ($1625)
- reuse of all the key good parts from my car, belts, plugs, pumps, etc.
- replace rear main seal
- labor ($936)
- Total ($2637)
I feel like I now have all of the info to make an informed decision. If I decide to sell the car as-is I will contact those of you that have expressed interest. Thanks again for all of the help! You folks are
!Now THIS sounds like a REAL diagnosis and it's what you should have gotten to begin with! I've always hated having service advisors as the middle men. I want direct communication with the tech(s) that worked on my car, but that never happens until you raise a stink about things!
In any event, now that we know the real story, I would lean toward throwing in a replacement engine at $2637. That's not bad of a price at all for the engine and labor. Definitely less costly than the hit you would take on selling it or trading it as is.
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justnspace (10-22-2014)
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jmack (10-22-2014)
10-22-2014 | 02:33 PM
#45
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Cruisin'
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 18
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Today I went with the same concern. They explained they have Service Writers (appointments, paperwork), Service Advisors (Liaisons), and Service Techs.
I think Rahal does a great job with the day to day explanations for the regularly scheduled maintenance. In this instance, they seemed to fall short. I'll chalk it up to the unusual circumstances and the resulting jump to the conclusion that the consumer wants to go the cheapest route, we are the experts, so we will give them just enough info to move forward.
Contrary to this is the consumer that wants to understand the root of the issue and all of the options so they can make an informed decision. I liken it to the fact that car salesmen had to adjust when car prices started being available via the internet. These service groups need to be proactive and assume their customers are going to do their own research (you tube, this board), etc. That is where they fell short in my opinion.
This stated, Rahal is still tops of any dealer I've worked with. In fact other than the fact I have to haggle down of parts or labor prices here and there, I'm completely pleased with their customer service and will continue to work with them.
I think Rahal does a great job with the day to day explanations for the regularly scheduled maintenance. In this instance, they seemed to fall short. I'll chalk it up to the unusual circumstances and the resulting jump to the conclusion that the consumer wants to go the cheapest route, we are the experts, so we will give them just enough info to move forward.
Contrary to this is the consumer that wants to understand the root of the issue and all of the options so they can make an informed decision. I liken it to the fact that car salesmen had to adjust when car prices started being available via the internet. These service groups need to be proactive and assume their customers are going to do their own research (you tube, this board), etc. That is where they fell short in my opinion.
This stated, Rahal is still tops of any dealer I've worked with. In fact other than the fact I have to haggle down of parts or labor prices here and there, I'm completely pleased with their customer service and will continue to work with them.
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10-22-2014 | 10:09 PM
#47
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Btw, as I mentioned earlier I work for a Honda dealer. There is a reason most techs don't talk to customers. Let's just say most of them tend to lack people skills. Service advisors are much better at talking directly to customers. With that said when something as drastic as this comes up I would always demand to talk directly with the tech that is diagnosing it. Service advisors know the basic maintenance stuff but most don't even know what a rod bearing is. Techs that are great at working on cars and are also great at dealing with people usually own their own garage. Just my .02!
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10-23-2014 | 08:49 AM
#48
Btw, as I mentioned earlier I work for a Honda dealer. There is a reason most techs don't talk to customers. Let's just say most of them tend to lack people skills. Service advisors are much better at talking directly to customers. With that said when something as drastic as this comes up I would always demand to talk directly with the tech that is diagnosing it. Service advisors know the basic maintenance stuff but most don't even know what a rod bearing is. Techs that are great at working on cars and are also great at dealing with people usually own their own garage. Just my .02!
Obviously you are a rare breed that can understand the issue and actually communicate it.
That said a service writers job is to sell, most get paid on sales and their techs just swap out parts. Even if THEY break something or notice something broken, its not fixed its upsold, then fixed.
In a day to day scenario, a service writer gets a walk in oil change and sells wipers or a brake job... in this scenario they are all off of their game.
10-23-2014 | 09:14 AM
#49
Stay Out Of the Left Lane
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 1,246
From: SE Mass --- > Central VA --- > SE Mass
I agree with most of you. I don't believe most techs have people skills and most service writers don't have the technical base/understanding to communicate the diagnosis. If they do and the customer comes up with secondary questions, they are sunk. Over and above this, most customers don't have the technical base/understanding and there is a larger population who don't care and just want to find out what it's going to cost to get them back on the road.
I have a friend who is buying a 2008 Ford Edge with 157K from her brother in law for $1000 because it needs a $4000 transmission. She has no idea what is wrong with the transmission but knows $4K will get it back to normal. I asked a few questions she couldn't answer but told me it does drive..........
I have a friend who is buying a 2008 Ford Edge with 157K from her brother in law for $1000 because it needs a $4000 transmission. She has no idea what is wrong with the transmission but knows $4K will get it back to normal. I asked a few questions she couldn't answer but told me it does drive..........
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justnspace (10-23-2014)
10-23-2014 | 12:14 PM
#52
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No disrespect, but the reason tech's don't talk to customers is because most techs are glorified parts changers and just follow the book.
Obviously you are a rare breed that can understand the issue and actually communicate it.
That said a service writers job is to sell, most get paid on sales and their techs just swap out parts. Even if THEY break something or notice something broken, its not fixed its upsold, then fixed.
In a day to day scenario, a service writer gets a walk in oil change and sells wipers or a brake job... in this scenario they are all off of their game.
Obviously you are a rare breed that can understand the issue and actually communicate it.
That said a service writers job is to sell, most get paid on sales and their techs just swap out parts. Even if THEY break something or notice something broken, its not fixed its upsold, then fixed.
In a day to day scenario, a service writer gets a walk in oil change and sells wipers or a brake job... in this scenario they are all off of their game.
We live in a throw away society. Almost no one fixes anything. Everyone is shocked that I try to repair everything before I buy something new. For example, right now my dryer is in a 100 pieces because I am waiting for some new parts to arrive. Everyone I know says I am crazy and I should just buy a new one. I would rather spend a few hours fixing something and spending @100 on parts then replacing the entire dryer for $500-800.
BTW, I work in sales not in service. My flame suit is on! I've been a car nut since I was a kid so I know more than the average sales manager.
Last edited by beekermartin; 10-23-2014 at 12:16 PM.
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HEAVY_RL (10-23-2014)
10-23-2014 | 01:49 PM
#53
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 18
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So last night the Service Manager called from the Dealer. He asked for permission to perform the PA inspection on the car (which is due shortly) so we have a true picture of what is wrong. I told ok and when he called me this AM to give me the details, he asked me what I really wanted from the dealership. On a whim, I told him I wanted them to buy the car as is for $3000; no strings except for the possibility that I would come back in the spring to buy a cert pre-owned of some sort.
He called back this afternoon and said that $3000 is a stretch and that they will be selling the car at auction, but they will do it. So now, since I have other wheels, I have a slew of options.
Now I'm second guessing the price I offered and wondering if I could get more based on these facts:
Needs Engine rebuilt or replace
AFS control unit needs to be replaced; but lights work as designed ($860)
Seatbelt buckle causing SRS sensor to light; but dealer will repair for no cost.
Car is Blk/Beige
Paint is good; original
No rust
Missing both rear mud guards
The body has minor scratches; small dent on top of trunk lid near acura symbol
The interior is clean and only shows normal wear
Wheels have minor scratches and scrapes
Aftermarket iPod connector through XM2 interfaces with Nav
All tires are at 6 (Dunlop SP Sport 5000 Asymmetrical Ultra High Performance All-Season)
Front Brakes are at 7
Rear Brakes are at 5
Clean title and carfax
Current PA Inspection and Emission
Service records from 55k forward
All major maintenace completed
Thoughts?
He called back this afternoon and said that $3000 is a stretch and that they will be selling the car at auction, but they will do it. So now, since I have other wheels, I have a slew of options.
Now I'm second guessing the price I offered and wondering if I could get more based on these facts:
Needs Engine rebuilt or replace
AFS control unit needs to be replaced; but lights work as designed ($860)
Seatbelt buckle causing SRS sensor to light; but dealer will repair for no cost.
Car is Blk/Beige
Paint is good; original
No rust
Missing both rear mud guards
The body has minor scratches; small dent on top of trunk lid near acura symbol
The interior is clean and only shows normal wear
Wheels have minor scratches and scrapes
Aftermarket iPod connector through XM2 interfaces with Nav
All tires are at 6 (Dunlop SP Sport 5000 Asymmetrical Ultra High Performance All-Season)
Front Brakes are at 7
Rear Brakes are at 5
Clean title and carfax
Current PA Inspection and Emission
Service records from 55k forward
All major maintenace completed
Thoughts?
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jmack (10-23-2014)
10-23-2014 | 02:14 PM
#55
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I think $3000 for a dealer is probably a bit on the higher side because of the costs with getting it ready and the actual auction fees. Of course the auction is a gamble. I am there every week. It could do $2000 it could do $4000. With a bad engine I would say it does closer to the $2000 range. Most wholesalers don't want to deal with replacing an engine in a car as complex as the RL.
I would like to buy it for $3000 but that is on the higher side considering how far away you are from me. Is the transmission good? Does everything else work ok? Did you have the propeller shaft replaced already? Can I see some pics?
I would like to buy it for $3000 but that is on the higher side considering how far away you are from me. Is the transmission good? Does everything else work ok? Did you have the propeller shaft replaced already? Can I see some pics?
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jmack (10-23-2014)
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justnspace (10-23-2014)
10-23-2014 | 02:29 PM
#57
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Oct 2014
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I think $3000 for a dealer is probably a bit on the higher side because of the costs with getting it ready and the actual auction fees. Of course the auction is a gamble. I am there every week. It could do $2000 it could do $4000. With a bad engine I would say it does closer to the $2000 range. Most wholesalers don't want to deal with replacing an engine in a car as complex as the RL.
I would like to buy it for $3000 but that is on the higher side considering how far away you are from me. Is the transmission good? Does everything else work ok? Did you have the propeller shaft replaced already? Can I see some pics?
I would like to buy it for $3000 but that is on the higher side considering how far away you are from me. Is the transmission good? Does everything else work ok? Did you have the propeller shaft replaced already? Can I see some pics?
10-23-2014 | 02:36 PM
#58
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Joined: Jul 2014
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Maybe someone else will give you more but I can't imagine much more.
10-23-2014 | 02:41 PM
#60
Stay Out Of the Left Lane
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 1,246
From: SE Mass --- > Central VA --- > SE Mass
Trade and Engine Options:
- 2,000 in trade as the car sits
- 5,000 in trade with replacement "known good" engine
- $2900 for an engine with 74K miles (installled) - 30 day parts only warranty
- $2470 for an engine with 106k miles (installed) - 6 months parts only warranty
- $2700 for the 106K engine with a 1 year parts only warranty
The private party value of the car is probably less than 8,000 with a replaced engine. I'm leaning towards trade, but am going to call around to see if I can get more than 2,000 selling the car for parts.
- 2,000 in trade as the car sits
- 5,000 in trade with replacement "known good" engine
- $2900 for an engine with 74K miles (installled) - 30 day parts only warranty
- $2470 for an engine with 106k miles (installed) - 6 months parts only warranty
- $2700 for the 106K engine with a 1 year parts only warranty
The private party value of the car is probably less than 8,000 with a replaced engine. I'm leaning towards trade, but am going to call around to see if I can get more than 2,000 selling the car for parts.
- The noise is a bearing rod or rod shaft noise noise. The noise gets faster and more defined when the coil pack is pulled from cylinder 2. When the other coil packs are pulled there is no change in the sound. He stated there is more space than there should be between the bearing and the ring and the bearing is therefore jumping around.
- To diagnose the true problem will take 12.2 hours which results in the removal of the sub-frame, oil pan and pulling the cylinder heads ($1200)
- To rebuild will take 20.4 hours and would include these parts: connecting rod (machined), connecting rod bolts, piston rings, crankshaft ($3300) -- Note, if damage is found in the cylinder there would be additional parts/labor.
- So we are looking at a minimum of $4500 to diagnose and rebuild.
The replacement engine option:
- 74k mile motor ($1625)
- reuse of all the key good parts from my car, belts, plugs, pumps, etc.
- replace rear main seal
- labor ($936)
- Total ($2637)
I feel like I now have all of the info to make an informed decision. If I decide to sell the car as-is I will contact those of you that have expressed interest. Thanks again for all of the help! You folks are
!$3K For replacement is roughly 8(?) months of car payments when looking at ROI. However, I'm guessing you would be up against another timing belt replacement in the next two years?
Have you used this dealer all along?
Are they competent enough to rebuild or replace an engine?
What is your comfort level with them?
Can you get more than $3K by parting out?
10-23-2014 | 03:18 PM
#61
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Oct 2014
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Are these numbers still in play or have they changed?
They are basically the same. A couple of hundred less here and there. Big change is $3000 cash and I can walk away.
What did the Mrs say?
She wants to walk away, but said it's my decision.
$3K For replacement is roughly 8(?) months of car payments when looking at ROI. However, I'm guessing you would be up against another timing belt replacement in the next two years? I'd say three to four years.
Have you used this dealer all along? I bought the car from their non-certified affiliate, but yes for service needs. They have Toyota, Honda, and Acura. I've bought many cars from each.
Are they competent enough to rebuild or replace an engine? I think so. I got a good impression when I was able to talk to the shop foreman.
What is your comfort level with them? High
Can you get more than $3K by parting out? Looking into that.
They are basically the same. A couple of hundred less here and there. Big change is $3000 cash and I can walk away.
What did the Mrs say?
She wants to walk away, but said it's my decision.
$3K For replacement is roughly 8(?) months of car payments when looking at ROI. However, I'm guessing you would be up against another timing belt replacement in the next two years? I'd say three to four years.
Have you used this dealer all along? I bought the car from their non-certified affiliate, but yes for service needs. They have Toyota, Honda, and Acura. I've bought many cars from each.
Are they competent enough to rebuild or replace an engine? I think so. I got a good impression when I was able to talk to the shop foreman.
What is your comfort level with them? High
Can you get more than $3K by parting out? Looking into that.
10-23-2014 | 03:37 PM
#62
Stay Out Of the Left Lane
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 1,246
From: SE Mass --- > Central VA --- > SE Mass
Certainly sounds like you have lots of options especially since you have alternate transportation. I'm guessing the dealership will be looking for a decision from you pretty soon though.
10-23-2014 | 03:54 PM
#63
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 18
Likes: 4
10-24-2014 | 09:49 AM
#65
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 18
Likes: 4
Since I got the no strings attached deal, I decided to sell her (the RL - not the wife
) for $3000 to the dealer. They told me that they are not going to fix her and will sell her at auction. I will try and find out which auction and will post here just in case any of you want to take a chance on her...
) for $3000 to the dealer. They told me that they are not going to fix her and will sell her at auction. I will try and find out which auction and will post here just in case any of you want to take a chance on her...
10-24-2014 | 09:58 AM
#66
Stay Out Of the Left Lane
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 1,246
From: SE Mass --- > Central VA --- > SE Mass
Congrats on your decision to sell, the car, not the wife 
. Probably a good chance it winds up at the Manheim auction like beeker mentioned. Would be interesting to find out what it sells for at auction.
. Probably a good chance it winds up at the Manheim auction like beeker mentioned. Would be interesting to find out what it sells for at auction.
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jmack (10-25-2014)
10-25-2014 | 05:28 PM
#69
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 18
Likes: 4
I asked them today when I sold her, they said they did not know when they would send her. She is loud! I took some picks. PM me your email addy if you'd like them. I can't post pics yet...
11-01-2014 | 12:06 PM
#70
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 180
Likes: 29
A little late but if the engine is loud and the tech sees metal shavings in the oil when drained, no question the motor is done. The tech only gets paid an hour diagnosis which is why they couldn't tell you exactly what gave out prior, unless you want to pay for engine tear down.
$2600 isn't exactly a bad price for a motor swap but I'm sure you're happy with your decision
$2600 isn't exactly a bad price for a motor swap but I'm sure you're happy with your decision
11-09-2014 | 07:05 PM
#74
Advanced
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 91
Likes: 19
From: Western NY
I concur that in your area the body should be in good shape and a motor replacement is the best choice. I have an 06 that I bought at 106K and now have 120K after 18 months. The car was from Philadelphia. Looks like brand new inside and out and underneath. These cars and their engines should last 300K from what I see on this site. I think they are trying to steal the car from you with that trade in value. Very unfortunate what happened. Probably a defect from the factory that took 100k to break. Maybe talk to the Acura area rep that they should help you pay for this given your faithful purchasing of Acuras in the past. Sort of a good will gesture to keep a loyal customer happy. Who knows. Even a little $ would help. This car should not have an engine failure at this mileage!
11-11-2014 | 08:24 AM
#75
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 131
Likes: 13
Engines for the RL are CHEAP. Good move replacing the engine I'd have come down to PA and taken it off your hands for $2000 :>). The engines cost something like $1200 where I am before installation. I think $3000 all in with all replacement parts is a steal for such a great car.
My mechanic mentioned that he's now looking for 'suckers' that want to get rid of their RL's when it's a simple engine swap :>)
My mechanic mentioned that he's now looking for 'suckers' that want to get rid of their RL's when it's a simple engine swap :>)
11-11-2014 | 08:46 AM
#76
Stay Out Of the Left Lane
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 1,246
From: SE Mass --- > Central VA --- > SE Mass
I concur that in your area the body should be in good shape and a motor replacement is the best choice. I have an 06 that I bought at 106K and now have 120K after 18 months. The car was from Philadelphia. Looks like brand new inside and out and underneath. These cars and their engines should last 300K from what I see on this site. I think they are trying to steal the car from you with that trade in value. Very unfortunate what happened. Probably a defect from the factory that took 100k to break. Maybe talk to the Acura area rep that they should help you pay for this given your faithful purchasing of Acuras in the past. Sort of a good will gesture to keep a loyal customer happy. Who knows. Even a little $ would help. This car should not have an engine failure at this mileage!
Engines for the RL are CHEAP. Good move replacing the engine I'd have come down to PA and taken it off your hands for $2000 :>). The engines cost something like $1200 where I am before installation. I think $3000 all in with all replacement parts is a steal for such a great car.
My mechanic mentioned that he's now looking for 'suckers' that want to get rid of their RL's when it's a simple engine swap :>)
My mechanic mentioned that he's now looking for 'suckers' that want to get rid of their RL's when it's a simple engine swap :>)
Did you guys read the end of this thread?? OP sold the car to the dealer and the dealer was planning on selling it to a wholesaler to be auctioned.
11-11-2014 | 11:30 AM
#77
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 131
Likes: 13
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