Hello there. John here. I'm new here and wondering if I can ask for some of your thoughts:

I am the proud owner of a 2005 RL with 103k miles which has been diagnosed with a problem in Cylinder 2. While I was driving at highway speed, there was a lot of clattering and the oil light began flashing like a strobe. I got off the road as soon as I could and had the car towed to the dealer. The dealer says my option is a "known good" replacement engine with like miles on it. The engine they have with 106k miles would be installed for $2800 (parts and labor). It would come with a 6 month parts only warranty.

My questions are, do you recommend I do this or sell the car for parts? Do these engines last? What about an engine from an online location? And finally, are there any other options that would make sense in this situation?

Some items that may or may not matter:
- I have had the timing belt package completed
- The dealer gave me a heads up that the power steering pump should be replaced, but I've seen no issues with steering or noise, etc.
- The car would be considered good condition on KBB.com
- The AFS light and Air bag check lights come on intermittently

Feel free to ask for more info if it is needed! Thanks for what you can offer,

John

 

What was the root cause of the problem? The diagnosis? Did it snap a timing belt?

 

Did the spark plug eject from the engine? Usually when that happens it is cylinder 5. The middle cylinder in the front of the engine. I have seen/read about a few Honda 6 cylinder engines having an issue with cylinder 5's spark plug ejecting. I highly recommend changing spark plugs sooner than the recommended 110k miles. I also recommend torquing them higher than the 13 ft lbs Honda recommends. I did 25 ft lbs when I installed mine. I also rechecked them after a few weeks to make sure they stayed properly torqued after a few weeks of heating and cooling cycles.

 

Hey John

sometimes, the spark plug likes to eject from these engines, being aluminum.
I would question the dealer on what exactly happened to cylinder 2.

if spark blew, its an easy fix and wouldnt need an engine replacement.


when did you get the timing belt changed? and who did the work?
if timing belt snapped; the previous mechanic who did the timing belt is at fault.

we need to find the root cause.

 

Had to step away for a bit. Thanks for your questions. I have had all of the service done on schedule at Rahal Acura in PA. Per your questions, my records indicate:
99,023 - Timing Belt Package, Spark Plugs and 100k Mile scheduled service.

So, it looks like I need to discuss further with the service department. I'll get the root cause and let you know.

Question, would the oil light come on based on the loss of pressure from the spark plug? I am assuming yes. To note, I did check the oil when I first pulled off the road, it looked to be at the correct level.

 

One other thing I wanted to add. The tach was as steady as it's ever been. Wouldn't the tach jump around if it was missing a plug?

 

Normally when a plug is failing it will start with a misfire which will trigger the check engine light and cause the engine to run rough. If the plug is loose and you don't shut off the engine immediately it can be ejected causing damage to the cylinder head and possible damage in the cylinder.

If the oil light came on and then the engine failed I doubt it was spark plug related. I also doubt it since you recently had the plugs replaced.

 

Dealers are quick to toss and engine, if they haven't pulled the heads down they have no idea what happened.

The question is, can you afford their price? and do you want to invest any more time in the root cause?

If yes, then get a tech to pull it down.

 

I think one could finesse an explanation out of them without paying for an inspection fee.

they did point out cylinder #2. which means they might know what happened to it.

 

We are both talking about a dealer, right? hahaha...

One of the many reasons I hate a dealer is the piss poor diag work.

Granted we have VERY limited information, but if he lucked out and got a tech that cares this engine could need a helicoil and an oil change.

end..

 

they're "part changers" and not mechanics.

 

Bingo bango.

 

Talked to the dealer. The symptoms (no check engine light and engine not miss-firing) lead them to believe it is not a plug. They said I could spend more to do some engine tear down, but the damage has been done. I asked them:
- to find an engine with lower miles
- what they would give me in trade as it sits
- if I can reuse some of the good parts (timing belt, water pump, etc.)

I'll post those answers when I get them. The car is 10 years old. I know it's an RL, Black/Beige and a dream to drive -- but -- should I put three grand into a car that's worth around nine?

 

they're not telling you WHAT kind of damage is done.





have them explain what is damaged in cylinder #2.
How do they know cylinder #2 is damaged?


then I would pay for a leak down test and a compression test. these are cheap to perform and dont need any tearing down of engine.

p.s. they can charge you for a used engine, but if you dont find the root cause, it could happen to the swapped engine as well

 

Told ya so... Dont fight it crab man, OP gunna OP.

 

$2800 parts and labour isn't the worst I've heard for a used engine before. When the tranny blew up in my CL it cost me $3600 parts and labour to replace.

Your dealer isn't telling you much, and just as Justin said, they aren't mechanics, just part changers. Most dealership diagnosis work is sad at best also. I once saw a customer come back with a $600 dealer bill for his Lancer because the TPMS wouldn't program and they couldn't figure out why. After $600 worth of diagnosis they sent the car back to me. Unplugged the radar detector and 10 minutes later he was good to go. Then I got to call the dealership and tell them how retarded they were charging someone that much because they didn't know what they were doing.

/rant.

Back to your issue, listen to Justin and get a few of the less costly checks done, find out what is damaged and why/how. Then make a decision once you have been properly informed.

 

(Don't shoot the messenger )
Dealer says that they killed the cylinders one by one by removing the coil packs. When they got to cylinder #2 the noise was still there but much, much less. They say I don't have a blown head gasket so the compression test isn't needed. They tell me that they don't have a reason to believe that an internal engine issue was caused by an external problem.

 

Trade and Engine Options:
- 2,000 in trade as the car sits
- 5,000 in trade with replacement "known good" engine
- $2900 for an engine with 74K miles (installled) - 30 day parts only warranty
- $2470 for an engine with 106k miles (installed) - 6 months parts only warranty
- $2700 for the 106K engine with a 1 year parts only warranty

The private party value of the car is probably less than 8,000 with a replaced engine. I'm leaning towards trade, but am going to call around to see if I can get more than 2,000 selling the car for parts.

 

this is a common test for spark plugs and coil packs.

with the car running; disconnect a coil pack one by one. the engine note should change.

if engine note does not change; that coil pack is bad.


I'm not shooting you, I just want you to be well versed and educated, so that you have ammunition against the dealers..

the test performed doesnt tell us if the engine is bad and likely; they're trying to get you to buy and perform work you dont need.


compression and leak down test are cheap. it doesnt involve taking apart too much of the engine, so labor isnt concerned there.
these test need to be done in order to diagnose a faulty cylinder.
if they did not perform the leak down or compression test; they do not know if you have a bad engine and are likely lying to you.

 

 

i'll give you $2000 for your RL.

 

What exactly is wrong with the engine? Low end noise? No oil pressure? Valve train noise? If it runs enough for them to disconnect each coil pack separately then they should be able to describe what the issue might actually be.

If they say it is in the lower end then I would be interested in having the oil pan pulled to see what happened. I don't know how much labor is involved on an RL to do that. Some cars it is extremely simply. AWD cars can be a lot more labor because of what is in the way.

Basically if it was me I would pay a few hundred bucks in tear down/diagnosis to figure out exactly what happened. If turns out to be a plug that shot out of the cylinder head then I would be all over the dealership that changed the plugs. If it something completely unrelated at least you will know what happened.

 

BTW, if you car is in good to excellent condition beside the current engine issue it is worth more than that! I work for a Honda dealer and I am at the auctions every week. With that mileage in perfect running condition and in good/excellent condition you should be getting closer to $8,000-$10,000 for a trade in value.

Now if it has a bad carfax, lots of scratches, bald tires, needs brakes, broken windshield, etc then the numbers you were quoted make more sense.

 

I'll buy it for $2000.

 

Where are you from? I might consider buying it from you if you decide to sell it.

 

lol, i got dibs

 

Where is the OP and his car located??? I'll pay $2500 for it if it's anywhere near the west coast!

 

The noise sounds like a baseball card in the spokes but much, much louder. The noise increases in speed and volume when the accelerator is pressed. The tach acts normal and the engine temp is normal. The car seems to have less power when accelerating. The oil light is intermittent. The check engine light does not illuminate. So, I think I would describe it as valve train noise.

 

Car is in Central PA.

 

has any one checked the oil level?

 

DARN! Not worth paying the shipping charge to me in Seattle, but otherwise would have taken it in a heartbeat at $2k-$2.5K. Even with fixing the engine, assuming everything else is in good condition, the car should sell for more than $6K!

 

Yes, I did before I had it towed. Looked fine. It was to the top of the textured area on the dip stick.

 

I am gonna take a shot in the dark and say it threw a rod bearing. Awfully unusual for that motor but a possibility.

PA isn't that far away from me. The shipping company I use goes to Manheim in PA every week. I might be interested if you decide to sell it.

 

If you decide you want to sell it send me a PM. Maybe we can work something out. I would like pictures, description of condition, etc.

With that said maybe you will get lucky once you find out what exactly is wrong with it.

 

Dibs for 3K + shipping to Chicago if the car is in otherwise good shape. I'm dead serious.

 

Man jmack, you've got yourself interested buyers all across the country in a bidding war! LOL Are you thinking twice about selling yet? ;-)

 

Dont use (in case if you will take parts from the old engine) old timing belt and water pump, i would change these parts anyway even if the "new" engine have low mileage.

 

Hello all, and first thank you for all of your help the past couple of days!

All of your questions and thoughts led me to watch a lot of you tube and I learned a lot about what the noise might mean, how to do the potential repairs, etc. That research and the info I have learned here allowed me to confirm the dealer was not communicating the whole story to me, so I went down there and raised some questions. I should add to this that I have been buying cars from the Bobby Rahal group for over 14 years, so I also felt I had some firm ground to stand on.

I spoke to the Service Manager and the Technicians that diagnosed the issues. One of the techs has been there for 20 years and the other was relatively new, but they knew a whole lot more than I'd been hearing from the Service Advisor! Here is what I learned:

- The noise is a bearing rod or rod shaft noise noise. The noise gets faster and more defined when the coil pack is pulled from cylinder 2. When the other coil packs are pulled there is no change in the sound. He stated there is more space than there should be between the bearing and the ring and the bearing is therefore jumping around.
- To diagnose the true problem will take 12.2 hours which results in the removal of the sub-frame, oil pan and pulling the cylinder heads ($1200)
- To rebuild will take 20.4 hours and would include these parts: connecting rod (machined), connecting rod bolts, piston rings, crankshaft ($3300) -- Note, if damage is found in the cylinder there would be additional parts/labor.
- So we are looking at a minimum of $4500 to diagnose and rebuild.

The replacement engine option:
- 74k mile motor ($1625)
- reuse of all the key good parts from my car, belts, plugs, pumps, etc.
- replace rear main seal
- labor ($936)
- Total ($2637)

I feel like I now have all of the info to make an informed decision. If I decide to sell the car as-is I will contact those of you that have expressed interest. Thanks again for all of the help! You folks are !

 

beekerman called it.

thrown rod

 

also, im glad you were smart enough to research and poke and pry some more.




throw another engine in there and keep driving!!