drolds72

Brought in the car one last time before my warranty expired. Among other things, the d/s low bulb in the seat heater switch was burned out. Not covered, and the estimate was $92! Then they proceeded to tell me that the car I bought from them had substantial body work done, and the rust on the doors was my problem because they were painted. They failed to catch that during the expansive 150 point inspection that they did to certify it. God only knows what happened to that car. Bloomington Acura can lick my sack. Especially That indignant fooker Randy.

HEAVY_RL

iTrader: (1)

I'd call acura care on that one. If nothing else just to be heard.

23109VC

if the car had major body work, but they certify it as not having any - I would think you would have a good case against them. you relied on it being certified and they either intentionally mislead you, or were negligent in not catching it.

they will blow you off if you let htem. call them on it, demand it be fixed, and if they give you flak - call a lemon law lawyer - those guys deal with car dealers / car issues a lot and can probably advise you if you have any case or if you are screwed.

there is no excuse for a dealer not catching "major body work" on a certified car. the guys who buy/sell at auctions know that stuff immediately...they even have little pen sensors they can put on the car paint to detect it it's repainted... if it was repainted... they knew. period.

the real issue is whether a car can have body work yet still be certified. if it can - then they did nothign wrong by not telling you. i'd be curious as to what the certification actually covers....

i would think that if they certify it, then even if body work exists, they are essentially saying that the body work will not affect the car to thoe point that it will have problems. yours has problems, sget them to deal with it.

getakey

^ I agree
That said, I don't know if there are any hard rules on CPO for a car that's been repainted in certain areas.
My question would be, can you be sure it was actually repainted? Make them prove that and then ask, why was it CPO'd

drolds72

Yep, it was repainted. I drove up to dealer to buy my $10 bulb, and asked for copy of the certification checklist. #1 and #2 on the list both referenced all the vin stickers in place and matching. The stickers on both the driverside doors were painted over- at a minimum, no way to verify a match, and the car should have failed the CPO process right there. The service manager is the one who used the term Major body work. To put it in perspective, the conversation was with my wife, and he might have been trying to put her on her heels from the way I understand it. At any rate- I told the SM to submit the paperwork to the regional rep, and I figured that would be as good as place as any to start a dialog. I am concerned about the rust but also diminished value. I would not have paid as much for a non cpo car... Hopefully they can appreciate my perspective, and do something to try and make it right. I am not sure fixing the rust would be anything more than a 1.5 year fix depending on what is happening to the metal on the inside...

DiabloSVRacer

ughhh, sometimes they are just dong their jobs but you need to talk to them in a calm manner and explain it in detail whats going on.

getakey

I'd take some pictures of those stickers and send to Acuracare as well. Ask them how this car was CPO'd

drolds72

I called the SM this morning, and before I could really get into anything, he acknowledged that this was a problem, and that I could expect a call soon from the used car department. Question though, what can I expect to happen? I guess I would be satisfied if they repaired the doors correctly (replace if neccessary) and I would like them to extend the bumper to bumper for at least another year or 2. Any thoughts on the resolution? I was thinking about asking for my $1000 certification fee back, but the warranty could be worth more...

getakey

Doesn't hurt to ask for all of the above and more. Remember they negotiate for a living.
I think this is one time that you have the upper hand

oo7spy

Start off way above your needs to be satisfied. Come down slowly, and you will likely walk away with a good deal.

drolds72

Got a call from the General Sales Manager today about "an issue with the paint". He couldn't be more willing to bring the car back and take another look at it. I told him the rust just went from being the issue, to being indicative of a bigger issue, namely the fraudulent CPO certification. Smooth as silk, he just kept saying he would work with me. "Okay, Great!" I said. Then I spelled out my 3 concerns. #1 getting doors repaired correctly, even if it meant replacing them(I spoke to a body shop that basically refused the job because the rust will just come back) #2 The fact that I paid up for a CPO car that should have never been certified. and #3, the diminished value that I will receive because I cannot sell or trade the car as one that has never had body damage repaired- especially since I can't document it. Ideally, I want 2 new doors and the bumper to bumper warranty extended for 3 years and another 50k. Plenty of time for any other latent issues to manifest. Thought about asking for my CPO fee back, but the extended warranty could be worth a lot more. Anybody have any ideas about what else I could request? I would have to think they want me to go away happy without the need for a lawsuit alleging fraud.

neuronbob

I think your requests are reasonable given the obvious fraud this dealer has put upon you. I'd ask for the CPO fee back as well even though the warranty might be a lot more. oo7spy's point should be your MO in the coming negotiations.

HEAVY_RL

iTrader: (1)

Thats a VERY solid request... are you going to trust their body shop

drolds72

Only if the body shop is going to reassemble the new skin and subframe. They don't do anything on sight, just farm it out. Does any Acura dealer have an inhouse body shop? Good points taken on the start high theory of negotiation. Not sure when they will get back to me, but I will report results. thanks for the input!

rlx015

Honestly, I would not let loose of any of the requests you just made: 1.
1. fix the both door and ensure that VIN stickers are matching (if possible)!!!
2. warranty a must !!! for another 3 years and 50k warranty;

Me personally, I would ask for a written apology from the dealership you have to go through all of this because of their fraudulent actions.
This last is not really to get them to give you a document stating that but more as a leverage in negotiation: you are asking for a legal document in writing they committed a fraud - which no one will give you... but that's why in the half conversation you can tell them: "listen, #1 and #2 is a must - third thing, I can live without" ... and there you go - just ensures you get the first two things done...

Note: I think it will be hard for them to get you that warranty because that would be another fraudulent action you are asking them to do: Acura I believe would not warrant cars that had physical damage - but I might be wrong.

gbriank

rl015: You are correct, Acura will not warrant is car...but, the dealer may.

Personally, you were sold a vehicle that wasn't what was promised. I'd give it back to them and walk. You can't be sure what else is wrong with this car. It would take a good independent mechanic to scour every inch of this car to prove to me that nothing else was wrong.

drolds72

I have scoured the car since this happened and I can't find any evidence of any other repair. I am actually really comfortable owning the car from a mechanical standpoint. I have had them warranty everything that has ever popped up: driveshaft, AC compressor, new wiper assembly, exhaust tips ect. Anything that ever came up on a TSB has been taken care of. It has 99,000 miles and uses very little oil, and results from blackstone are outstanding. It drives perfect. All that being said, I am livid that they ramrodded this thing through the certification to get it sold. I never would have bought it without the CPO or at least all the documentation of what has happened, and only at the right price. Don't get me wrong, if they don't do the right thing for me, and make me happy, they will get both barrels in the chest. I believe I am still well within the statute of limitations for this kind of fraud, and I actually kind of look forward to pursuing this very aggressively. Their cheapest out is 2 new doors and some sort of special warranty, if they value any degree of confidentiality. Otherwise they will see themselves quoted in the paper. Gotta love the voice recorder app on my Iphone!

gbriank

Make sure recording folks without their permission is legal in your state...

drolds72

Yes it is. Any party to a conversation can record it without permission or disclosing the recording in MN.

rl3

Prior to purchasing this car, did you ask to see the car fax report?

getakey

In defense of the OP, why would you look at a carfax for a CPO car
Besides, lots of things get unreported to Carfax. I've seen clean reports for cars obviously repaired and repainted

drolds72

Yes, I did. It was clean. Dealership looked at it too recently to make sure car was not in an accident since I had it. I just did not know about the VIN stickers all over. Hopefully, somebody currently shopping will read this and check the vin stickers now.

tnobori1

I had a semi-similar problem with a CPO MDX we bought back in 2006. First, don't spend money on a lawyer until you have exhausted all other options. I recommend filing a claim with the BBB. Start with the actual problem at hand and then discuss your lack of confidence in the car given this massive oversight (namely - what else could be waiting to be uncovered). Personally, I would ask that the car be purchased back from you at the original cost. Then start over with a different RL from a different dealer.

Our MDX was certified but had a truly baffling navigation problem. The unit was switched out several times and we literally drove loaner cars for probably 6 of our 28 months of ownership as they tried to find the problem. We initially lost our BBB arbitration hearing, but eventually got back every penny we spent on tax, licensing, down payment, interest, and principle payments (minus about $80). Honda's corporate office offered us a settlement after the various service personnel conceded that the problem was untraceable. Our situation seemed to be accidental, but yours seems intentional (or negligent at the very least).

BTW, the lemon law does not apply to a CPO (mainly because it is technically an extension of the new car warranty, and not actually a new car warranty).

drolds72

Update. I was told to call the used car manager. I knew that they would be footing the bill, so I took this as a positive sign. UCM jumped right into the "well, we touch up all our cars so they are showroom condition...blah blah blah", and I said stop-I am holding a copy of the certification sheet. The first 3 points on it refer to making sure the vin tags match. These do not. He tried to jump in and say there was no reported accidents on carfax, but I reiterated the fact that the tags were painted over. Unreadable. If they can't be read, it cannot be proven or disproven that they match, and that the car should have failed the process right there. I never would have paid up for a non CPO car. Then he basically capitulated and asked me what I wanted. I told him the general consensus was to hand the car back to you. However, I told him I wanted 2 new doors. He told me to make arrangements to bring the car in next week. I really don't want anymore than that. I had planned on driving the car into the ground. Kind of pissed me off in the beginning- did he really think I was going to go away?

oo7spy

Yes, he did. But what happened to extending warranty, fee return, etc.? You may be letting them off easy, but if that is ALL you really want to be completely satisfied, then it is what it is.

When I took my car to Discount Tire to get my DWS mounted, the tech chipped the paint on one of the wheels with his impact wrench and scratched two others. I immediately returned and complained to the manager. He said, "If you come back on Monday, we can have the wheels sent to San Antonio to be refinished, and they will be back on by Tuesday." I complied. When I showed up on Monday, he balked. He offered to refund me $350 on the $880 I spent on Friday. I knew I would never use the money to fix the damage myself so I politely declined and made him hold true. Did he really think on Friday I wouldn't come back on Monday? Hell yes.

The key to customer service is bitching, politely at first is always the best option. If you hold fast and keep up the bitch, you will get what you want, especially if you deserve it.

drolds72

Good point. While on the phone tonite I reminded him I paid up for the car, and it won't be worth as much when I go to dispose of it. I will ask for everything next week in person, and see where he balks.