Chuck091279

Ever since I bought my car, I have been concerned about the PAX wheels/tires issue and whether or not they can be replaced.

Well, I took my car in this morning as it was having a bit of an alignment/drift issue. In order to prove the alignment issue to them, I took a ride with the shop foreman who began talking to me about the PAX Wheels issue.

He confirmed that they are virtually impossible to service/replace in the DC area and that it has now become a gov't case - class action lawsuit against Michelin. He also stated that Acura is no longer replacing the whole tire/wheel combo. He's confident that Michelin and/or Acura will come up with a fix for this problem in the future. He's just not sure how long it'll take.

Now here's the good part that answers questions us CMBS/PAX folks have had on this forum - can you even do it w/o other issues?

He mentioned that he had another customer come in with the PAX wheels, got furious at the situation and paid to have new wheels and tires installed on the car. So they did it. And he drove off a happy customer (2,500 in the hole). He said there are no other issues with the car when they are replaced, just that Acura didn't want them to do it. So if they had an "ok" from the customer, they would go ahead and do it.

So, now that I have worked a $400 dollar deal into my sales contract, whereby they still owe me 4 regular wheels and tires for my RL, I should be ok. I figure it'll cost me 400 for the wheels + about 500 for the spare/lugnuts, etc. I'll probably end up putting on new tires and buying a donut/spare and the toolkit. I don't plan to do this until I have an issue with my PAX wheels, Acura buys them back, or perhaps they last fine until the tread on them is worn.

That's at least my stance on it - I'm optimistic. I thought about trading it in, but realized that there isn't another car with as much technoloogy on the market right now that I'd like to buy.

neuronbob

I'll leave the thread in the main area for a bit to allow for some discussion.

I guess I'm not surprised to see the legal system involved here.

So has anyone else decided to say "forget it" to PAX? Any results? I am quite sure there's no issue with doing this.

lland

I looked into de-PAXing a while ago. I figured the spare related parts at $500 or so. Throw in some tires and rims (I know take-offs are available for a reasonable price but I'd probably go with something a little nicer and 18" as well), lug bolts, TPMS sensors, etc. I just figured I'd wait until I needed tires to decide. I happen to like the way the PAX tires ride and handle and I like the run-flat theory. I did have one issue with a slow leak and the tire/wheel was replaced, no questions asked. I can't imagine Acura/Michelin not continuing to do this as there are few (including most if not all local Honda and Acrua dealers) who have the equipment to service the PAX system. Regardless, it will be interesting to see what Honda/Acura/Michelin come up with as an alternative as well as the results of whatever pending litigation is out there.

LL

123456SPEED

If I ever get an RL I'd like to consider the CMBS option, so what happens to the PAX wheel issue is important to me.

How can Acura demand you not change the PAX tires/wheels if they are hard to get serviced and replaced (and officially discontinued)?

I thought there were very few, if any, optional rims that fit any 2G RL.

I guess Acura is trying to focus resources on the new TL, RL changes, TSX coming up, and see any attention to a slow selling, to-be-updated model as a very low priority.

Interesting to see what happens, sooner or later Acura will have to offer alternative wheels to PAX?

SpicyMikey

They can't. That's why I'm sure they will change their position soon, either voluntarily because they realize it's the smart business decision, or forced by lawsuit.

Michelin gambled on this idea but Honda is the one that really lost. I'm sure they are very pissed about that.

Chas2

I agree with your statement. The only other thing I would add is that the rear suspension on PAX cars is tuned differently. Confirmed myself through Owner Link and with Parts Dept by going through front and rear suspension at Pohanka Acura that the rear dampers are different, not the springs, just the dampers, but no one knows how (e.g. harder/softer)

We know that the PAX wheel/tire combo are much heavier than stock. Anyone have any guesses?

I guess when the time comes, I would like to put on 18 or 19 inch wheels, a spare and see what happens.

SpicyMikey

Sure that makes sense. The weight (mass) of the wheel is different so the spring damper is slightly different. Hardly an obstacle. I'm sure it can be interchanged with a different one. Also, how much of a real difference can it make. Most of us probably wouldn't even notice the variation in wheel motion on bumps.

Chuck091279

he confirmed that it worked for the 1 guy he did it with. Please educate me - what is a damper?

lumpulus

Damper=Shock adsorber

dwboston

Plus, the addition of the spare tire should make up for the weight difference between the PAX wheels (heavier) and new rims such as A-Spec. I can't imagine the car would handle radically differently with new rims and a spare tire in the trunk. Acura is discouraging it because of the ACC/CMBS radar aiming and potential liability issues on their part. I doubt they can legally force anyone to keep the wheels on the car (by threatening to void the warranty) if they are replaced with wheels of the correct size and DOT-approved tires.

White92

I've sold 2 CMBS PAX RL's. Ever. Both customers swapped out the PAX tires/wheels for "regular" RL wheels. One went with the accessory 18"s. And both bought spare tires and tool kits. I would do the exact same thing if I were buying.

Chuck091279

I don't think there are any issuesarounx the radar pointing.

Chuck091279

Do you know if their car functioned correctly? ACC/CMBS that is? I presume you would've heard about it if it didn't. Also, do you need new lugnuts and TPMS sensors definitely? The tech lead at Pohanka indicated that you didn't need em.

lland

New lug nuts, definitely.
TPMS Sensors, probably not.

LL

Chas2

Changing from PAX to standard tires will not affect the ACC/CMBS cars.

I think that the thought of ACC/CMBS not working properly with PAX came from my postulations in previous posts that putting the A-Spec suspension on would change the stance of the car, affecting CMBS radar pointing. Because the option is officially titled ACC/CMBC/PAX, I can see where people might get the radar pointing confused with PAX.

I theorized in previous posts that the radar would have to be reaimed/recalibrated with suspension modifications, even the A-Spec suspension. There is a sentence somewhere in the owner's manual that either implies or directly says that because of the radar, the owner must not perform any suspension modifications to the CMBS equipped car. I quoted that sentence also somewhere in a previous post.

If the suspension were modified, I am guessing no Acura dealer would want to touch CMBS realignment/recalibration due to liability issues.

No one at the dealer or internet parts dealers at places like Hondacuraworld, have ever been able to tell me WHY Acura officially says A-Spec suspension cannot be fitted to CMBS cars. They just quote the footnote at the bottom of the A-Spec suspension product page that says Not Applicable for CMBS cars.

So my guess is that the radar pointing will changewith a suspension change.

Sticking with stock diameters for non PAX tires, such as 245/50-17, 245/45-18 or 245/40-19 should not change CMBS functions.

White92

Where does it say this? I have the A-Spec brochure here in front of me and can't find it.

Chas2

I do not have a copy of the brochure, but the dealer showed me the brochure in late 2006 or early 2007 and the footnote, and the guy at Hondacuraworld quoted the same thing to me over the phone, independently.

I do not know if the sheet he showed me was just on suspension or the whole A-Spec. He just showed me the footnote, and I did not focus on the rest.

Actually, I believe it said NA with the Technology Package, which in 2006 was ACC/CMBS/PAX, and that would not make sense now, since Acura has changed the definition of Technology Package for 2007 and 2008.

Can you post the brochure? Maybe things have changed?

Chuck091279

Actually, I was just surfing Edmunds and reading reviews on there of 06 RLs and sure enough some guy was talking about how his Tech Package had the A-Spec Suspension...in '06 that would have had to have been the CMBS Tech Package...

dwboston

I'm sure it can be done. He probably had it installed privately....not at a dealer.

Chas2

That is good news! So it does work!?

I will have to look at that.

Chas2

Yes, we are sure that it can be done. The parts guy and I went through all the parts that the A-Spec suspension interfaces with and it seemed like the interfaces were identical. He said it looked like there was no reason that it would not fit except that Acura said A-Spec was NA for Tech Pack.

TampaRLX-SH

Here you go. From a 2006 RL Manual, page 327 re: CMBS


"The radar sensor may not scan under these conditions:

* Your vehicle is tilted from a heavy load in the rear or from modifications to the suspension.

Do not overload your vehicle or make any modifications to the suspension."

White92

I looked in the full line A-Spec brochure as well as the 2008 RL brochure. I couldn't find anything that said you couldn't use A-Spec suspension on the CMBS package. I'm sure if it was that big of a deal, they would put a note on the bottom saying "*not for use on CMBS RL" or something similar.

Although the 2008 TSX brochure says the stock cd changer will play MP3's and it doesn't, so maybe their right?

SpicyMikey

I'm sure that's a lawyer required statement. Also, "modifications" is a relative term. Yes, if you changed the suspension to have it raised in the back then I'm certain it would affect the CMBS radar gun. If you changed to A-Spec (which only stiffens and lowers the car a bit) then I'm equally certain it would not hurt the CMBS system.

backfire

I wrote a email to discount tire in regards to changing out the tires and wheels. They told me they received a letter from Acura telling them NOT to change out the PAX WHEEL AND TIRES, because of suspension issues. Gee what a surprise

Chuck091279

my dealer got the same letter. Of course Honda said no...it would blow their business model.

neuronbob

I'm pretty sure Honda/Acura will come with an official solution soon, especially with a class-action lawsuit in the wings. They can't possibly leave those few with PAX SOL if there's soon going to be no place (or few places) to service ruined tires.