mrdeeno

I love it how all these people can post up their opinions and can't support it with anything.

mrdeeno

THANK YOU for recognizing the REAL WORLD advantages and disadvantages of one suspension layout over another, instead of just touting one as "this car is better because it has double-wishbone", like some others have done in this thread.

mrdeeno

And what have I been maintaining the ENTIRE time? I agree with your assessment that the RL and M are very close competitors and on par with each other...but when you bring the M45 into the equation, that changes everything. And I have ALREADY given the edge to the RL vs. the M35/35x.

But do be careful, because not saying the RL is a "superior" car is akin to bashing it or "downing" it as others here seem to think.

SpicyMikey

I think we can all agree that if you have a "go fast" mentality and you love power off the line, the "stock" RL is not for you. FACT! Next subject.

Ac Man

I thought this thread was about why the RL isn't selling?

mrdeeno

It's funny...me "downing" the RL, as some of you think I'm doing, and giving reasons why I didn't buy the RL or why others aren't buying the RL is MORE ON TOPIC than the fanboys defending the RL and trying to justify their "superior" car. Kinda reminds me of the thread about the EX350 over on the RDX section when someone posted and said "This is the RDX section, why are we discussing Infiniti?".

neuronbob

What a spirited debate we seem to have going here. Let me attempt to bring it full circle with some points that maybe we can discuss further as they are indeed relevant to the topic at hand.

I think we can all agree that in order to sell more RLs to the great unwashed masses, several things need to happen.

a) SH-AWD at minimum needs to be an option so that those who prefer FWD (and let's face it, Honda ain't going RWD anytime soon) and a lighter car will be happy.
b) A higher-output model, ala M45, for those who feel a need for more power off the line (aka mrdeeno). Nothing wrong with that, just saying.
c) A tweak in the styling, perhaps to perk up the butt a little bit. I agree with CL6, who has brought up the issue a few times.
d) Better lease deals, ala BMW.
e) Different marketing mechanism. The M sells without much advertising, frankly, due to its CR report. No matter what anyone says about CR, millions depend on them for "unbiased" testing.

The debate is HOW these things can happen, while making Acura more relevant in the luxury world.

Discuss amongst yourselves, WITHOUT namecalling. It's OK to mention competitors (including Infiniti--and regulars here know I like the M, I almost bought one, remember) here because the competitors are doing something to make their cars sell more copies.

SpicyMikey

These kind of posts just are not useful Deeno. I've seen forums get destroyed by bickering. It's just not why we're here. This is not a debate club.

Everyone stick to the discussion of cars and lets not focus it on ourselves. if someone makes a personal comment. Try to ignore it. I know it's not easy, so, someone remind me if I make that mistake too.

SpicyMikey

man, the more I study the selling techniques of other manufacturers, the more I realize BMW is out in left field and all alone with their strategy of incentifying leases. They put MB to shame let alone Acura. I think this certainly explains a lot about the sales differences, but how do they ultimately make money? My sis got that BMW 750Li this week. It MSRP'd for $90k, she's leasing it for $1050 a month! I don't know how they make money, but whatever they do, Acura should figure it out and copy them. That would be like Acura putting a lease deal together that put you in an RL Tech with like $450. That changes the game for a lot of shoppers.

cai06

Exactly, buying a car is an emotional process, just like buying a house, otherwise we would all be driving Corollas and living in 2-bedroom apartments which are what
we really need (not what we want of course). Now do we all need 2 extra cylinders
to go to work? maybe, maybe not but thats just personal preference/perception.
Anything posted here is basically biased or an opinion that others can argue so
why some people are so rude or poisonous, I don't know; we all value different things in a car some people prefer power and image, others may prefer quality and design or any other combination.

mrdeeno

How are my posts, which try to keep SOME sense of reality in the discussion, not helpful?

Like I said before, harping on the virtues of the RL is off topic, because it adds NOTHING to the discussion of why the RL doesn't sell. But me giving reasons why I didn't buy the RL, and why I see others not buying the RL, IS on topic...and by the nature of it, these reasons HAVE to be negative.

If the thread title was "Why I bought an RL" or "Why the RL is better", i'd be posting about the virtues of the RL, because I do like the RL...I'm just not a "blinded" owner (ie fanboy) like some of the people here who take my posts personally and then take offense.

Which scenario makes more sense?

Scenario 1: (this is the scenario the fanboys want to see)
Poster 1: "Why didn't you buy the RL?"
Poster 2: "Because it has a great stereo system!"
Poster 3: "It has expensive aluminum suspension components!"
Poster 4: "it's superior to every other car!"
Poster 1: "How does any of that make any sense as an answer to the question?"

Scenario 2: (this is the scenario that would be IDEAL for this thread)
Poster 1: "Why didn't you buy the RL?"
Poster 2: "Because it doesn't have a V8, design is too conservative, the value isn't quite there, MSRP too high, etc. etc. etc."
Poster 3: "I think the RL doesnt' sell because it has no marketing and only comes in AWD"

Scenario 3: (what has been happening in this thread)
Poster 1: "Why didn't you buy the RL?"
Poster 2: "Because it doesn't have a V8, design is too conservative, the value isn't quite there, MSRP too high, etc. etc. etc."
Poster 3: "Every other car is inferior to the RL! You can't appreciate the double-wishbone suspension or the quality of parts used! You are a hater! Why are you even here!? You drive an Infiniti, Infiniti sucks! It is a 2nd teir company! The RL is superior to the Infiniti! You suck!"

Like I said before, I'm not an RL hater, but I recognize where credit is due and where it is not due, and the topic of THIS thread concerns the credit the RL is not due. I'm bringing my thoughts, which are ON TOPIC, to this thread. Please show me where I "bash" the RL like the fanboys have been "bashing" Infiniti just because that's what I drive (for the record THEY brought up Infiniti in this thread in order to have something of mine to bash).

vincethe1

thank you, i love hearing things like that. damn suvs why in god's name do they exist? they are good for nothing, just 0. everything they do can be replaced so easily be something else.

space, minivan is bigger, lower center of gravity, more car-like. offroad and work, any truck wud do better, if you also need the space there's dbl cabs (but trucks are utility vehicles and should only be driven on the road in emergency situations like a farmers tractor). so what is an suv good for? idiots perhaps?

there is some nice suvs out there that are nice pieces of engeneering don't get me wrong, but i am not saying every suv is a pos, they are not...some were engeneered to be nice vehicles like the mdx is and a few others.....but what i don't see the point of is their bodystyle...that's the worst in them; a good for nothing bodystyle. no real performance cuz u had to compromise for the ground clearance, size, and weight. no real utility because it's not a vehicle made for work, and mpg is up the ass as well because it is not a vehicle made for the road, it has a body of a trolly made for work.

imho the only 2 types of road suited vehicles on 4 wheels should be cars and minivans......they are actually made to go on the roads that you go on everyday...not compromised for offroad with big tires and high clearance.

Jackzilla

Whether a product achieves mass market acceptance (or sales numbers comparable to what, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, BMW...?) IS NOT a testament to whether the product is any good or not. Consumers are a fickle lot. They often pick winners and losers based less on what is the best product or value but on some much more subjective characteristic or belief -- often reinforced by advertising claims and/or "tag lines".

Apple's MacIntosh computer and operating system is a perfect example. Its share of the computer market is variously reported at somewhere between 3% and 12% -- not really important to the point -- even though, compared to the IBM developed PC and its Microsoft operating system, Apple's computer, its operating system and user interface is superior, in numerous ways, to the PC. Even given the fact that it is THE PREFERRED platform among graphic arts professionals (and always has been) it has never achieved (after the PC was intorduced) anything more than niche segment market status.

At the same time, the PC is bedeviled with ongoing problems (buggy software, viruses, malware, software bloat, hardware and software that don't/have never worked as promised, etc, etc.) yet it dominates the computer marketplace.

Marketing, business models, competition and myriad other factors (many of Apple's own making and choices, to be sure) have had much to do with the situation, but one fact remains -- Apple has the better/best computer product and has steadfastly adhered to its product/design philosophy. And, fortunately, there is enough of a market among those who recognize these superior characteristics and benefits to keep the company in business. (All of this, of course, may change after Steve Jobs.)

The point of this is that Honda/Acura marches to their own "Steve Jobs" so to speak -- the philosophy of founder, Sochiro(Sp.?) Honda. The objectives of other automakers are not the same at Honda/Acura. Making the best designed, engineered and manufactured products is what they are about. And so long as there is a significant enough market segement that shares this idea to make the company prosper, that is how they will operate.

So far, it has worked, because generally Honda products are recocognized as the gold standard, when it comes to quality and reliability -- and that's whether it's a power lawn mower or the soon to be introduced Honda jet aircraft.

mrdeeno

BMW is probably giving the 7-series a higher residual than the used market would value it at, but are making enough from their other models that they are ok with losing a little bit on the lease to sell a higher margin car.

Acura can't do that with the RL. Lease prices are based a lot on what the estimated used price is after the car comes off lease...estimate too high a residual, and the dealer/leasing company has to sell the car at a loss. Estimate too low a residual and lease prices are too high. But the value of used cars are estimated on how well the car sells when new. Seeing how the RL is selling and what the actual selling prices are, the residual estimates (based on the MSRP) is dismal, and hence the higher lease prices.

That is why I suggested earlier that the MSRP should have been lower from the beginning...this would 1) boost sales because it is easier for the general public to recognize the "value" at well below $50k, and 2) since the MSRP is lower, the actual selling price would be closer to the MSRP, translating to higher residuals and hence better lease rates.

(Let me put my flame suit on, because I just suggested the MSRP of the RL is too high, and to the fans, that is an example of me bashing the RL. I think the OP should put a flame suit on too because he posted that only 522 RLs were sold in August...he must be a hater!).

mrdeeno

apples to oranges comparison...

People DO buy apple products (do you see any threads anywhere about Iphones and Ipods not selling?).

In computers, there's very limited choices...Apple, PC, or Linux. Most people know PC, and want to stick with what they know. But people DO respect Apple and stay away because they do not know and because of cost.

The RL's market is not of limited choices, and the RL is not as "different" as a mac is to a PC.

A better analogy of an apple to the RL would be apple offering a Mac that is expensive, no choices in hard drive, memory, or whether it is a laptop or desktop, and wondering why people won't buy it even AFTER discounting it.

GoHawks

While you and I have generally agreed lately, I have to point out that these comments are what generally have inflamed most here.

It's not that you offer a different perspective. It's the manner in which you offer that perspective. The tone is condescending and belittling.

Yes some may offer opinions and treat them as facts, but there is a way to point that out without creating a hostile situation.

mrdeeno

it's only the noobs and the "fans" that are taking offense to everything I'm writing. And this is the internet...there is no "tone" to be condescending or belittling...it's just the 'fans' who take offense to anything negative that take it as condescending or belittling. I would just rather get to the point and not candy coat things to make the "fans" and noobs feel better about their purchase...if they take it too personally and can't take criticism of their choice, then they should get off the internet. (although the quoted you chose was in fact to "belittle" the fanboys, because i've had enough of their shit).

GoHawks

So why are you here then if you've had it?

I enjoy a spirited debate as much as anyone else, but if "I've had it", with a group of people, and internet forum or whatever, I would then have to question whether it's worth my time hanging around.

If you're here to contribute to the "community" and provide insight and healthy discussion, and possibly enlighten some of the "fanboys", that's one thing, but if you're intent on antagonizing everyone, that's another.

I guess that's up to you

dwboston

Yet you're still here. Wonder why?

neuronbob

OK, time to lock up, this thread is no longer productive and will never be again. I tried not to lock, but to no avail....