SpicyMikey

Like a girl, right? Looks are what first attract you, but then it needs to perform for you to stick around

VOdoc

Agree...the M is not a good-looking car by any stretch. All that chrome around the huge, misshapen taillights is waaaay too blingy for me. Consumer Reports has done quite a job for Nissan with their puffed-up review. No other explanation makes sense.

OTOH you have to look to Cadillac for a truly butt-ugly design. I was behind a Caddy XLR tonight and could not imagine what drugs the designer was taking in order to arrive at such a noxious arrangement of angles and bulges. Come to think of it, there WAS a certain vague resemblance to the hideous Acura Concept Car. Hope the Acura design staff kicks their drug habit prior to getting busy with the next-gen RL/Legend...otherwise it might be something completely different for me next time.

jhr3uva90

The Infiniti M doesn't need as much brand prestige partially because car magazines have been gushing over the car ever since it debuted a couple of years ago, while the GS has been generally panned.

And Audi doesn't have much brand prestige. In fact, the Wall Street Journal had an article a couple of years ago that stated that there are many people in middle America who don't even know what an Audi is.

mrdeeno

But what do magazine articles have to do with anything if you keep claiming it's all about "brand prestige"? Even if reviews are panning the GS and gushing over the M, if you claim it's all about "brand prestige", then the GS should still be heavily outselling the M.

As i said before, the RL's problem is NOT "brand prestige", although there are some "fans" here that keep on believing so to make themselves feel better.

mrdeeno

spoken like a true Acura fanboy.

So CR gives the M a glowing review so the RL "fanboys" have to claim it's "puffed up". But we all know if the RL was given a glowing review, it would have been "deserved".

SpicyMikey

I agree it's not ALL caused by "follow the leader" problems. So what do you think it is? BMW sold 23,000 5's so far this year. Acura sold 3400 RL's.

Is that all because people don't want AWD? I agree I wouldn't want to pay extra for AWD in Florida, but the RL comparably equiped is $13k less then the 535. That's not it.

Is it because it doesn't have an 8 cylinder. I'm sure 90% of their 5 series sales are with the 3.5 v6 with comparable low end power. That's not it.

Is it because of handling? Half these cars I see are driven by women and are all mall crawlers. 95% of the drivers don't need to win a slalom run. That can't be it.

Is it looks? The 535 and RL are classic mid size sedan lookers. Some will like one more then the other, but that certainly can't explain 20,000 extra sales!

So, if it isn't image, then what one tangible mechanical or feature shortcoming can explain horrible sales of a vehicle that wins or matches in every important category for 95% of the drivers and is $13k less expensive? Or, is it a perfect storm of everything?

Rob144

CR has probably helped Infiniti raise their brand awareness with their high rating of the M. CRs ratings get exposed to a wide audience because CR's ratings get mentioned in other publications.

On the other hand, while the RL came in very high in C&D (2nd), and Edmunds (1st) comparison tests, those publications don't have as much weight or quotability as Consumer Reports.

Ultimately, the problem goes beyond brand prestige. It starts with brand awareness. Acura has very little brand awareness, generally. For Acura to have prestige would be icing on the cake.

Rob144

GoHawks

These are the issues that are holding the RL back.

No RWD option.
No V8 option.

That is it.

I've posted ad nauseum several articles where the RL either outperformed or was neck and neck with either the M or the GS. So from a performance standpoint it's not an issue, it's comes down to choices.

While we all may extoll the virtues of SH-AWD, most people view it only as a foul weather benefit and don't see the need for the added cost, weight and subsequent drag on fuel economy. Having a RWD based platform would validate the RL as a "performance luxury" sedan to most.

As for the V8, yeah most wouldn't opt for it, but it does become an image thing. It validates it as a performance sedan to most.

As for being a "fanboy", remember most, if not all of us had a choice when purchasing the RL.

Me personally?

I don't care what CU or anyone else said, I just didn't like the styling of the M. That's not an indictment of the car as I have no doubt it's a great automobile, it just didn't do it for me.

I REALLY liked the GS, but when I compared it to the RL, I liked the RL better. Now in fairness when I was buying I was comparing the GS300. It may have been a little closer if the GS 350 was out, but my point is that I made my choice. I chose the RL. I didn't settle.

SpicyMikey

I agree brand awareness is huge. It's why Sony still sells MORE TV's and stereo's then their competition AND can sell them at a premium price, eventhough the units are all made by the same chineese guy's somewhere in Bejing.

That could explain Mercedes or Lexus sales. But, Infiniti doesn't have more brand recognition then Acura. How can Infiniti sell 3 times as many M's as Acura sells RL's if it's all about brand recognition. That doesn't explain it all either.

Mr Deeno and GoHawks think it's all about the drive train. Gavine and Touge think it's mostly about looks. Others even think it's the AWD holding back Acura.

I don't pretend to know. I never gave it more then a passing thought. However, I'm pretty sure it's not one thing. It's probably not even just two things.

mrdeeno

BMW and MB are a different case where their image DOES increase sales...but when comparing the RL to the GS, M, A6, etc., image is only a SMALL part of the bigger problem. The 1000 or so difference in monthly sales between the M and RL can't be explained by image, can it?

Why are you comparing a car with almost no image to a car with a STELLAR image? Sure, your "image" theory applies when the RL is compared to the MB or BMW, but it falls completely apart when all the other players in the segment are included. I'm not theorizing why RL sales suck compared to the 5-series, I'm theorizing why RL sales suck compared to the ENTIRE SEGMENT.

And I'm sure sales of most other cars in this segment are 6-cylinders also...but the RL STILL sells much fewer 6-cylinder RL's as its 6-cylinder competitors. I take it you don't understand "halo effect".

Did you forget we are talking about the midsize luxury segment here? What a car has and what it can potentially do is more important than what the buyer will actually use. 95% of drivers don't need V6's in their cars either. 95% of drivers dont' need heated leather seats. 95% of drivers don't need 17" or larger rims or navigation systems. 95% of drivers don't need speed limiters at 155mph or "super handling" AWD systems. Point is, in this class, what a car CAN do is more important than what a car will do.


No, but looks aside, the RL and the 5-series are still very DIFFERENT, aside from image.

Who ever said it was "one" thing? It is MANY things...and image is one of them, but it is one of MANY things (lack of V8, lack of RWD model, lack of major options and trims, conservative styling, etc. etc.).


My conclusion (as stated every month when the sales figures come out), is that it is beyond brand image...it is many things, brand image being a small part...and as evidenced by Infiniti, overall product (offerings, optinos, marketing, styling, everything about the model) can easily make up for lack of brand image...so for all those who keep crying brand image, you're WRONG!

mrdeeno

No, I'm not implying that anyone who chose the RL is a fanboy. A fanboy will not give props when it is deserved and will make up ANY reason, no matter how blatantly biased or outrageious, just to discredit another car. I'm not an infiniti fanboy, I give the RL props that it deserves and will give Infiniti the flogging it deserves, but I try to keep my opinions as my opinions and facts as facts. Sure there are many here that feel that just by me pointing out the obvious (RL sales suck), makes me an RL hater and Infinit lover, but that is far from the truth (except to the fanboys who feel that if you didn't buy an Acura, you're a hater).

Prime example...VOdoc's post. Since CR gave the M gushing reviews, he believes it must be "puffed up". But if the RL got gushing reviews, it would be because the RL deserved it. How much more "fannish" can he get?

jhr3uva90

Something else to consider: perhaps the GS is selling less than the M because the GS is not a "typical" Lexus and therefore does not appeal to the "typical" Lexus driver. For example, I remember being at a Lexus dealer, and sitting the GS, when one of the female customers referred to the GS as a "guy's car." Then it occurred to me that Lexus drivers tend to be middle-aged women who might not be interested in what the GS has to offer, while the GS is aimed more at middle-aged men. The Lexus brand is generally not associated with sports sedans and their typical drivers might not be into that type of thing.

Brand isn't every thing, but it is VERY important. What people associate with the brand is also important. Unfortunately, people tend to associate Lexus with comfy/cushy rides (and that's what their drivers want) while people tend to associate Acura with "high-tech Honda." Infiniti has been so invisible to the general public for so long that the general public might not really associate the Infiniti brand with anything, giving Infiniti a clean slate.

The M is an amazing car regardless. I almost bought one but went with the RL because: 1) the RL was cheaper, 2) the local Acura dealership gave me a better trade-in value on my previous car, 3) I like the way the RL implements gadgets better (i.e. I like the GPS in the RL better, I like how the standard audio system could play MP3 and DVD-Audio, etc.). If Honda had offered a RWD version of the RL, made it sportier like the M and kept the technology content the same, I'm sure they would have sold more cars. But honestly, I'm not sure if HMC WANTS to sell more Legend/RL's. Anyone who is familiar with the over $45K car market has a good idea of what the customers in this segment want, and I'm sure HMC knows as well. Instead of giving those potential customers what they wanted, they created a niche product mainly as a production test vehicle to see if they can make SH-AWD work in the real world. That seems to be the Legend's claim to fame. Too bad so few drivers really care about that feature.

SpicyMikey

OK, then you and I are actually on the same page. It's a combination of many factors. There's no clean and easy answer.

For the record, that means you (and I) don't know what the problem is.

On a side note; I think you're being too hard on people in this forum. It's understandable someone who owns something is going to be biased towards it to defend their purchase decision. It's human nature. If you say you don't do that then you're probably 1 in a million. Obviously you don't own an RL. It puts you at an advantage to see things more fairly.

mrdeeno

Brand is important, but I still think brand is a result of the product, not a never-changing concrete slab that some make it out to be.

BMW and MB would never have the brand image they have if the products never lived up to the image. If the product doesn't come close to the image, the product would erode the brand image (see 1st gen. IS300). But if the product can go beyond the current brand image, then the brand image can improve to meet the product.

The 1st gen. RL was invisible, if anything...it had a blank slate to go by and nothing to really live up to. The 2nd gen RL should have not only been head and shoulders above the last RL, but head and shoulders above most competitors in the segment and at least offer what is on par with what can be considered the best in the segment (in terms of performance, engine options, drivetrain, trims, packages, etc.). Instead of 5-series and other $50k midsize luxury sedan buyers, Acura aimed the RL at potential Accord and TL buyers...but then priced it out of their reach.

Rob144

I think Infiniti HAS enough brand awareness and image that people grasp it as a Japanese BMW, while Acuras are seen as fancy Hondas.

Infiniti has a straightforward product line-up of sport sedans & coupes with little obvious overlap with itself or to the more pedestrian Nissan lineup.

Awareness, Image, & Product are all factors. It's kind of like Rock, Paper, Scissors. Awareness and Image beats Product in the marketplace. Awareness and Product will establish Image. Image and Product means you have Awareness, and you're off to the races.

I think Acura has Product, but hasn't been able to shed the "fancy Honda" Image for something more aspirational. Acura Awareness is low -- moreso in my opinion since they dumped the brand equity of the Legend name in the US.

Rob144

jhr3uva90

Some problems:

1. Acura's brand image. Sometimes it is better to have practically no brand image like Infiniti than a brand image that is not conducive to selling $50K+ cars. "Value luxury" is an oxymoron.

2. SH-AWD. Even though you can get an RL with SH-AWD for the same price as an M without it, there are many people who simply do not want an AWD car, period. If HMC really cared about selling lots of Legends/RL's, they would offer a RWD version like everybody else.

3. What makes the RL unique in this segment? SH-AWD that many drivers do not want, and a lot of features for the money. The problem is that most of the people who drive $45K+ cars want status, performance, etc, but are not that pressed about having a lot of features for the money. Those who really want a lot of features for the money drive TL's.

4. To prove that they don't understand the true luxury market instead of the near luxury market, Acura downscaled the RL by offering a version with LESS content instead of upscaling it by adding MORE content. They should have made A-spec standard and kept the price the same instead of offering an even cheaper version. And why does the 2008 model have fewer features (like no OnStar) than the 2006 model?

5. Dealer experience is still inconsistent. Acura needs a consistent luxury dealership experience.


4. The RL offers a lot of gadgets that are well implemented from my perspective. However, the target market for a mid-sized over $45K+ sedans doesn't see gadgetry as a top priority.

dwboston

You make some good points. To clarify point #4, it was the Acura dealers that pushed for the de-contented 2007 RL Base model. Some buyers didn't want Nav (or didn't want to pay for it at least) so the Base model was born. Funny how some folks here bought the base model then immediately wanted to add the Nav back. As to OnStar, again some people don't want it. It's seen as superfluous in the age of cellphones. Also there has been specualtion that Acura may expand AcuraLink to an Onstar-like service. And face it, OnStar is linked with GM.

The dealer experience really needs attention. I've been in Honda dealerships that are nicer than Acura dealers around here.

Rob144

The RL as a product is clearly competitive with the V-6 GS, M35, 5 series, A6, and E-Class. It is in a tough spot because it exists within a brand seen as fancy Hondas and is sized and powered similarly to other cars within the brand family, so the casual observer can easily dismiss it. And the dealership experience isn't all that hotsy-totsy. It isn't until you live with the RL that you appreciate what it offers against the cars that are in its class, and how much better it really is than the TL and Accord.

The 1st Gen RL was a refinement of the 2G Legend -- they made it bigger, quieter, added power, and tried to push it upmarket to go against Lexus. It didn't have much overlap with the Honda lineup, size-wise & powerwise in terms of power and engine layout (FWD, but longitudinal layout).

Honda/Acura took the 2G Legend/RL to a new and different level with SH-AWD, and advanced technology beyond what competitors offered, but wrapped it in a subtle and somewhat compact package. It really represents a flagship for what the Honda brand and philosophy is all about. Clearly that isn't necessarily a recipe for success as an Acura.

I will be interested to see if sales increase in September with the recent publicity about the RL's strong safety ratings.

Rob144

SpicyMikey

That statement resonates with me. That's clearly a big PART of the problem. It supports the image argument actually. Does the Acura brand have the brand cachet to support a $50k automobile or is Acura just a move up brand for Honda buyers with a promotion. I was starting to buy that argument as the main cause at one time until I realized how well Infiniti was doing with the M (and also how well Acura is doing with the MDX). Seems the $45-50k price range is within Acura's reach. If that's a problem, then it's only a piece to the puzzle.

dwboston

You sir, are a rose-colored glasses wearing fanboy. Your biased opinions have no place here.

mrdeeno

I was confused for a minute...I didn't know if I was posting in agreement with you or against you...but I think we are on the same page.

There's no problem being biased for or against another car, as long as it's supported by opinion and/or fact..."I like XXX car's look better than YYY car's look" is support for prefering one car over another.

But discrediting another car that got good reviews by saying it was "puffed up", with NO supporting evidence or facts or reasons, is simply being a "fanboy" and adds nothing to the discussion except to display said person's fanboy mentality.

jhr3uva90

Still, by removing OnStar, Acura removed a feature that differentiates the RL from the TL. It is better to give customers too many features for the money than too few.

Back to GS versus M, here's something else to consider: why should a Lexus driver choose the GS when the ES is cheaper and the same size (if not bigger)? The Infiniti M, on the other hand, is clearly larger than the Infiniti G.

mrdeeno

That's the problem..the RL, as product performance is concerned, is clearly competitive with the V6 GS, M35, 5-series, A6, and E-class.

But there are 2 problems with this...

1) The segment is not V6 AWD midsize luxury sedans, the segment is midsize luxury sedans, which includes V8 models and RWD models.

2) The product may be competitive from a performance aspect when compared to V6 models in the segment, but the product is not competitive when all other aspects are taken into consideration...aspects such as where is the V8 option? Where is RWD? Where is the sport model (A-spec doesnt' cut it)? Where are the major option packages? etc. etc. etc.

In order for a model to be competitive in the segment, it must compete with the SEGMENT, not with only certain models inside that segment.

SpicyMikey

It's easy to be confused about my position because I don't have one. Other then to say, it's just not as easy as many are making it out to be. It's some brew of flaws where the whole problem is greater then the sum of it's parts.

Certainly another piece to the puzzle, but the RL seems to compete (probably even lead) in the largest part of the segment (v6 - under $50k) yet it still only gets a fraction of the sales. It's a true mystery. I think that's why there's always so much discussion on this subject when it comes up (often). The mystery intrigues us all. I know it does me.

SpicyMikey

Good question; I think that's why you see so many ES's compared to GS's. Not only because of price. When I stopped at the Lexus lot I drove both. Tell you the truth, I didn't see where the extra $15k was hiding in the GS. In the end, I didn't like either of them and bought the RL.

briny319

[QUOTE=Rob L]that is until something happens that could be stopped (ie 3 guys with simple utility knives taking over a plane with 50-100 people...hello, overpower the guys since you outnumber them huge) then most Americans cower in fear. QUOTE]

Your example is in very bad taste, especially this time of year.

I am not amused.

briny319

Your example is in very bad taste, especially this time of year.

I am not amused.

SpicyMikey

The guy doesn't like the U.S.A, He's made several comments over the months like that. But he should keep his comments to himself, especially since this is not a political forum. I told him what I thought of his comments already. Hope he gets the message and either sticks to the subject or goes somewhere else.

GoHawks

I completely agree with this statement (Scary isn't it?) and meant to point out this very argument, but work got in the way.

Curious, what are the M35x and GS 350 AWD numbers? If they're even broken out. I think that would show the niche the RL is playing in.

GoHawks

Different dynamics

ES=FWD
GS=RWD/AWD

SpicyMikey

The ES also seemed to have a bit softer ride. But still, I couldn't justify the extra cost. The interior was comparable and the features were similar on the models I drove. I could see the ES stealing a lot of sales away from the GS. They probably should shrink it down a bit to separate the two more. But, we digress.

mrdeeno

Because the ES is the near-luxury model and the GS was already established as the midsize luxury model. There are bound to be quantitative differences...better materials, better handling, available V8, RWD vs. FWD, etc.

The TL is established as the near-luxury model, but the RL was never established yet, so making it so similar to the TL hurt it. Had the M, which was not established yet before the 2nd gen, been designed to be similar to the G as the RL is to the TL, I think it would have suffered the same fate.

Rob144

This is why the RL is in such a bind!

In order to distinguish it from Honda/Acura's other sedan offerings, they added SH-AWD. This managed to place the car into a small sub-segment of the market when I bet it was intended to trump the market and be a standout feature that drove sales.

The RL is fenced in by Honda's own lineup, and the absence of a V8 or super high-performance model (RL-S, anyone) means it also doesn't line up with the competition on all fronts.

To assess the sub-segment, you'd have to compare RL sales with the V-6 AWD GS, AWD M, AWD 5-series, & A6 Quattro.

Rob144

SpicyMikey

Honda definitely hasn't separated the two brands enough. I'd agree to add that as one more piece of the puzzle. Especially now with the 08 Accord (30% of HMC's unit sales) now being upscaled a bit with more size and HP.

I still think the AWD thing is only a small problem (if any). The RL is so competitively priced that the AWD is kind of free in the buyers eyes. You may not think you need it but it certainly goes in the plus column when price is not working against you already.

jhr3uva90

Actually, the ES pre-dates the GS by several years. I'm not sure how "established" the GS is, considering that it has been a relatively weak seller for about a decade now.

mrdeeno

Every model in this segment, save for the E-class and 5-series, is a "relatively" weak seller.
I don't think it's considered a weak seller at all...it's not expected to command the volume of the ES or IS obviously, and it's not expected to match the E-class or 5-series either. If the GS is a weak seller, then what word would describe RL sales?

I'm sure they aren't happy that the M35/45 is so close on its toes, but it's by no means a weak seller and is established in the Lexus lineup.

But by established, I mean that they would not entertain the option of dropping that model from the lineup, while OTOH, it's more probable that Acura would drop the RL because it is not "established" in the Acura lineup.

SpicyMikey

They won't drop the RL, it would leave a massive hole in the lineup. They already have no full size sedan, now they are going to drop their true midsize product? I know the TL somewhat fills that role, but it's even smaller then the RL and is sport orientated. If anything I'd almost like to see them grow the RL a little larger, get more separation from the TL and maybe create a whole new class spec'd between the 5/7 or GS/LS or E/S . No rule that you have to develop a product that specs out exactly with the competition. Since those mentioned sets are so powerful, maybe it would actually be smart to not go head to head with them.

GoHawks

What you're forgetting is that the RL is not exclusive to the US. It is sold worldwide (albeit as a Honda). As others have said, while US sales are weak, Honda may be satisfied with the worldwide numbers and as a result may be "established" enough.

mrdeeno

I thought we were talking the domestic market here, considering that the thread title implies that the 522 Acura RL's sold in August were in the U.S., not how many whatever Honda Legends are sold worldwide.

The RL is NOT established in the U.S., and I don't see them dropping it either, but the probability is much more likely that they drop the RL than Lexus dropping the GS...the GS may not be gaining much sales year over year, but they are at least maintaining sufficiency. RL sales just plain suck.

NightRider

Reasons the RL numbers dropped:
- RL is a couple years old and the new model is coming out.
- The new M35/45 has become nicer and is more appealing in sport and luxury IMO compared to the bloated Accord look of the RL. Although, the M does look too much like the G. Plus the M45 comes with AWD or RWD and V6 or V8, as compared to the "you'll like what you get" AWD V6 only RL.
- New TL model is also coming out, and I'm sure potential RL buyers will cross shop.
- New Accord came out which also will be cross shopped.

The MDX and RDX are Acura's newest models, of course they will sell well, especially with the aforementioned American affinity with SUV's and big vehicles. My editorial: Too many prototypical white people with big trucks, small brains (and possibly other body parts) and disregard for other drivers.

I have owned a Mercedes before ('97 C280, back when they could be considered more towards the reliable side of the scale!) and obviously sales numbers for Mb/BMW support prestige factor. Packages/options are some of the reasons MB/BMW/Lexus sell so well. If you want the V8 fully loaded you can get it, if you want the nameplate but are trying to stay on a budget, you can get the base vehicle. I can only estimate the number of base model 325/328's, 525/530's, and C230's I have seen around the Denver-metro area. I hope everybody is aware that the Acura nameplate was created for Americans. Honda is fine enough for most of the world, but American ethnocentrism will not allow for an "inferior" mainstream name upscale/luxury brand. This also IMO demonstrates why Inifiniti seems to be pulling ahead of Acura; Acura seems fat, dumb, and happy with being in the upscale category while Inifiniti seems to be pushing towards the true luxury category.