NightRider

EDIT: Acura has always made a name by being a niche car that does not directly compete in established segments. The TL basically sits right between the 3 and 5 series or C class and E class. The RL between the 5 series and 7series or E class and S class, although it competes better with 5's and E's IMO. Also, notice that newer Lexus models seem to be pushing towards a sportier side in both car characteristics and styling. I think that reliability and newfound wider consumer appeal will give Lexus sales a boost.

mrdeeno

I disagree with your statement that Acura is a "niche" player. They are NOT a niche player and they VERY MUCH try to compete DIRECTLY in the established segments. The sizes may be "in between", but that doesn't determine which segments each car competes in, price is what distinguishes where the car competes.

TL/TSX - near-luxury segment, similar to Lexus's IS/ES strategy of having 2 near-luxury cars. the TL doesn't compete at all with the 5-series...it may be similar in size, but it competes DIRECTLY in the near-luxury segment.

RL - Midsize luxury segment, similar to the 5, E, M, GS, A6. The M is classified as a full size car, but that doesnt' mean it competes with the 7-series, another full size car. The M, like the RL, competes DIRECTLY in the midszie luxury segment.

MDX - Midsize luxury SUV segment, simlar to FX, X5, ML, RX. The MDX is larger than all these, but it still competes directly in the segment and is nowhere near competing with full-size luxury SUVs.

As for being a "niche" company, EVERY segment that Acura competes in is a non-niche segment. Niche segments are the sports car segments (corvette, Z, S2000, boxter), the ultra-lux segments (Bentley, Rolls, Aston, maserati), exotics (ferarri, lambo, former NSX), and even inconvenient affordable convertibles are niche segments (S2000, miata, sky, solstice). But near-luxury, midsize luxury sedan, midsize luxury SUV, etc.? No way, these are mass-market segments.

jhr3uva90

Really it is difficult for the mainstream luxury car driver to perceive Acura as a luxury car brand when:

1. Their "flagship" is a mid-sized sedan with a V6 engine.
2. They have no RWD cars.
3. They have no coupes or convertibles.
4. They have no V8 or V12 powered cars.
5. Their best selling car is built in Ohio on the same assembly line as the Honda Accord.

I'm not sure if HMC really wants really compete in the luxury market, despite what Acura in North America says. However, if HMC and Acura are not careful, Infiniti will pass them by.

neuronbob

Actually, they already have in the mid-luxury segment. Infiniti M FTW!

But that's OK, I still love my RL. Just because the M is winning this time doesn't mean the RL is any less a great car. And I recall that just a year ago I was looking seriously at jumping ship after all those Hondas and buying an M.

mrdeeno

I think that day has already begun...The G35 and IS250/35 are probably stealing some sales from the 3-series, but I think most of the "cross shopping" is between them and the TL. The next TL will have to pull a miracle out of its ass in order to stay competitive given the RWD advantage of the competitors (and the higher HP/torque levels that come with it without having to add a heavy AWD system).

It's obvious the 4G TL will have at least a 3.5L engine with 300+hp and SH-AWD (considering that the Accord gets a 3.5L engine and everyone else in this segment offers 300+ hp and the TL would need SH-AWD, unless Acura miraculously pulled a RWD platform out of its ass). But I don't see a 4G TL having the same "value" as the current and past TL's have considering a 3G TL-S with less HP and FWD is still more expensive than a G35 with more HP and RWD ($38,125 vs. $31k-33k), or even AWD for those who need FWD or AWD ($38,125 vs.
$33,450).

The advantages the 2G and 3G TL had over the previous renditions of its closest competition (IS and G35) have become all but a blur, and I actually see those advnatages completely vanishing in the not-too distant future.

jhr3uva90

I wonder if HMC really cares. I'm pretty sure that HMC is getting a pretty fat profit margin from the TSX (Japanese Honda Accord), Acura TL (made at same factory as US Honda Accord with similar parts), and the RL (Japanese Honda Legend that also shares parts with the Honda Accord, although SH-AWD probably eats into the profit margin somewhat). The price of electronics drops over time, so I'm sure features like ANC in the RL get cheaper for Honda to manufacture over time. Toyota, on the other hand, is willing to take a hit on models like the LS 460, which has a platform to itself, in order to establish and maintain the perception of performance and luxury.

The TL will continue to sell as long as there are people who don't know what torque steer is and can't tell the difference between FWD and RWD. I remember driving an Infinti G35 for the weekend during Labor Day Weekend 2004. After that, I realized that I did not want another FWD sedan, which eliminated every Acura sedan except the RL. Too bad SH-AWD makes the car so heavy, though.

mrdeeno

I hope they care about long term success over current profits. They CURRENTLY have very good products that are selling based on product...but the competition isn't competing only based on product, but also on brand image.

Yes, 10-20 years ago Honda/Acura could be considered leaders/pioneers in certain segments...they could even be considered "aggressive" to a point. But lately they seem to be milking their past laurels while other automakers are surpassing them (how long has the competition had DOHC engines while the next accord will STILL have a 3.5l SOHC?)

The day is not here yet, but the day is coming when Acura will be surpassed by not only the competition, but companies they never even thought they were competing with (ie hyundai).

Chas2

That is the truth! Hyundai RWD V8 will eclipse in most people's minds any AWD V-6 Honda cares to put forth.

CL6

Acura does compete with the others directly. The problem is the game has changed and Honda did not adapt ahead of time. When the TL came out in 2004 its Nav was like nothing else on the market, same was true with its stereo (DVD-A) and the Bluetooth. Believe me, I sold tons of TLs at that time. The economy was also booming but the TL was killing them and so was the MDX (which was in its 3rd model year). The game changed around by Jan-Feb 06 it seems and the old FWD platform didn't cut it any more. Basically, the competition got that much better. Acura needed to switch to AWD Fall of 05 really, to stay ahead of the curve but they didn't... now they pay the price.

And I bet had the 04 RL come out in 02 it would have knocked them dead and now we'd be onto the next RL. Honda let that old RL die for too many years. The 04 RL is the best buy out there and it's a great, safe, reliable, good car with good technology. Not exciting, but a good solid buy.

jhr3uva90

I'm glad someone mentioned Hyndai. To me, if you put leather seats in the the top-of-the-line Hyundai, it could pass for an Acura TSX or even TL.

The RL was a VERY impressive car in 2004. However, it would have been an AMAZING car in 2002. Now the RL is just okay relative to the competition. I was happy to buy a new RL in the spring of 2005 but I wouldn't be that excited to buy a new RL in the spring of 2008. The other cars have gotten that good. And I wouldn't even consider getting a TL in spring 2008, not with what Lexus, Infitniti, and BMW are offering. Hell, Lexus is squeezing the TL from both sides with the IS and ES models.

Here's an interesting side note: a friend of mine was looking for a compact SUV. He wanted the cubic feet of space that a small SUV provides, without the long overall length of a larger SUV. I recommended the Acura RDX to him. He asked me why he should get that vehicle over the CR-V. I mentioned SH-AWD and turbo. He didn't know or care what that meant. He ended up getting the CR-V instead. That is part of Acura's problem: they can't convince Honda owners and others why they should move to the Acura brand. That's a damn shame, for all of the Acura models.

Chas2

Here is an article on the Hyundai RWD V8 flagship that might be similar to the Genesis Concept Car.

http://news.windingroad.com/auto-new...aught-testing/

And from another site

http://www.zercustoms.com/news/Hyundai-Genesis-V8.html

"To give the big sedan some go, Hyundai has fitted it with a "Tau" 4.6L V8 engine developing more than 300hp. The Genesis will accelerate to 60mph in 6 seconds using the V8, but there are plans to use a range of engines, as well as the possibility of a supercharged or turbo model. Transmission duties are done by a 6-speed automatic....A production version is expected to go on sale in the second-half of 2008, with prices for a 3.8L V6 expected below $30,000. "

This may be a reason for Honda to speed things up a bit on the RL.

Rob144

What is the verdict on Acura getting its way with the "Base" RL? Did it help sales from being even worse? Did Acura expect the RL would be a teaser car, and most people would opt for the Tech or CMBS package?

What if Acura had gone the Apple route, and just lowered the price of the RL rather than going crazy with the incentives? Would potential customers have ignored the car because it was too inexpensive when they shopped a price range?

What would the model line-up have looked like if they didn't opt for this de-contented variant? Are they stuck with it for the next generation RL?

Rob144

TampaRLX-SH

Why is the sky BLUE?

How many is this?

Are we there yet?

Can we go home NOW?

Can I PLEASE stay up longer?

Rob, Rob, Rob.....please switch to an unsweetened cereal.

jhr3uva90

Acura capitulated to the dealers. They are the ones who wanted the de-contented RL, not Acura itself.

SpicyMikey

My dealer said for every 10 RL's they sell, 1 is a base, 8 are Tech, and 1 is CMBS

Jackzilla

Most auto buyers, especially of up market brands, conform to a sort of herd instinct. In this thrall, they tend to flock toward whatever the so-called auto taste makers (the automotive buff magazines, in this case) declare to be "the" hottest", "now" cult car de jure.
The fact that BMW and Porsche seem to be permanently enshrined with this status, in large part, explains their remarkable success in "moving the iron". Their cars, while quite good, enjoy a cachet out of all proportion to their actual, real world reality -- a good bit less than steller when it comes to practical and reliable everyday transportation.
However, the words practicality, economy of operation, and bullet-proof reliability are seldom used in describing the remarkable attributes of these "astonishing" machines. As a matter of fact, in the lexicon of buff book writers, these seem to actually be pejorative terms -- only applicable to lesser, more mundane automobiles, such as Honda Accords or Toyota Camrys.
So the soution for selling more Acuras by now should be fairly obvious -- somehow Acura must find a way to get the buff auto writers to confer "halo" status on one of its products, as they have on BMW and Porsche. Not an easy task, because the egos of these "experts" don't easily admit to there being "any" upstart to equal their anointed cult favorites.
Acuras best chance of pulling it off now rests on the development of the new "Super" NSX, due (according to stories) sometime between 2010 and 2012. It's supposed to have everything these guys demand in a "great" car, but I'm not betting on it becoming an auto book favorite -- after all, as good as the original NSX exotic was it never quite won the hearts or jaded minds of these taste makers. Despite its undenieable super exotic credentils, it was just "too practical and relable as everyday transportation".

jhr3uva90

2010 or 2012 might be too late. Again, I question if HMC is truly committed to making Acura a strong brand.

Rob144

Too many Mocha Frappuccino's in the morning! Wheee!!!

I just got to thinking that the dealers thought they had an answer with the introduction of the "base" model. But apparently that answered a question that no one asked. You'd have thought they'd have a clue to help sales.

Jackzilla has an interesting thought. Hondas have always been about balance -- they usually do everything pretty well, but no one thing is a standout. That's fine for an Accord, but not for a luxury Q-ship or halo car. The 2G RL has raised the bar on balance (as did the NSX in its own way), but it's a hard sell in a world where name recognition usually wins.

Rob144

mrdeeno

How come Acura didn't capitulate to dealers when they asked for a V8 RWD RL?

Acura could NOT, I repeat could NOT lower the price of the RL (like apple did with the iphone)...without at least "decontenting" it. Lowering the cost of the car without decontenting it would be admitting that they totally over-priced the car, making them look like they had higher expectations for the car than customers do (ie demonstrating they are out of touch with customers) and Honda would rather save face and lose sales than to show any implication they are out of touch with customers in the midsize luxury segment. No matter how clearly out of touch they are, they will NEVER admit it.

Ikko

I gotta admit, mrdeeno, at first(previous posts throughout the forum) I though you were a Acura/Honda hater. But the more I read(or reread) your posts, I'm beginning to understand your points. With Acura's situation! Let me just say(in short) that you are saying makes a lot of sense. And you seem to be a pretty rational guy. (Don't get all swell headed, now, lol)

GoHawks

After riding in a co-worker's M today, I am even more convinced that the issue has more to do with image and options as it does with the car itself.

Don't get me wrong. The M is a nice car. Interior quality between the RL and the M is on-par. I just don't understand how anyone can criticize the RL for being "Heavy and bloated" and not launch the same criticism at the M.

The issues at hand is that with Infiniti, if you don't want a V8? No problem. You don't want AWD? No problem. You want a V8? No problem.

With the RL, you have pretty much one flavor and you have to like it. I know, there are different trim levels, but the flexability goes well beyond whether or not you want Nav.

SpicyMikey

More times then not I agree with you Deeno, but saying the RL is overpriced? That's off base. That's the least of the RL's problems. Of course, price can compensate for just about any shortcoming. Offer it only in hot pink and you'd still sell them if you lowered the price enough.

We agree on your other point. Acura CANNOT lower the price to solve this car's problems. First and foremost (see prior paragraph). Secondly, it would have ramifications beyond the RL and could undermine the pricing for all Acura's. You just can't do that.

jhr3uva90

Actually, companies lower prices on products pretty often. You have a high initial price of a product to maximize revenues from early adopters, then you lower it to get the followers. If I'm not mistaken, Acura has not raised the price of the RL since the 2006 model, which results in a virtual reduction. The problem of the RL is deeper than price and it deeper than the car itself. There are many problems, in my opinion, starting with the Acura brand, but not limited to it. Another problem is offering the RL as SH-AWD only. It seems like a solution looking for a problem. HMC should have created a lighter, RWD version of the RL as well. SH-AWD is an interesting feat of engineering but: 1) American luxury drivers don't really care about feats of engineering, 2) SH-AWD is essentially a way of compensating for the limitations of a FWD platform. I've said this many times: if HMC really wants Acura to be taken seriously as a luxury/performance brand, they will need to make major changes starting with a new platform.

jhr3uva90

And as far as capitulation goes, it is much easier for HMC to capitulate to dealers by REMOVING a navigation system than to DEVELOP something new. Let's hope that HMC is indeed working on a V10 engine and let's hope they are not trying to use it on the FWD global mid-size platform. I really hope Honda realizes that they've taken that platform as far as they can go in the luxury/performance market. Personally, I still like my RL and hope to keep it for more years to come. However, this might be my last Acura because there really isn't anywhere to go after the RL. Every other current Acura is a downgrade, including the new MDX. I rode in it once and the shortcuts seemed obvious to me. Also, I think the TL is caught between a rock (Lexus ES) and a hard place (Lexus IS) and the Infiniti G is a very tough competitor. The RDX will eventually do well as a niche player in urban environments, but it will never be mainstream. And the TSX will continue to do well among those who want the pretense of performance.

I'm sure Acura corporate (not the dealerships), AHM, and HMC are making acceptable profits from the current Acura lineup, especially since most of the R&D was completed while working on the Honda Accord. However, I would really like for Acura to go where Infiniti is going, which is a more bold direction than simply milking the current platforms until they are dry.

F23A4

Opting for the motor with 336 lb-ft will negate some of that perceived heft.

GoHawks

No doubt, but the majority of Ms sold are the V6s.

F23A4

While that is true (as it is for the A6, GS and E), that V8 option is a nice alternative for those who are concerned enough about the heft to fork over the extra bills for more torque. That said, the VQ35DE's low end torque has no V6 equal (NA at least) when it comes to off the line prowess.

mrdeeno

For the way the car is currently sold (without the "halo" of a V8 or RWD to help V6 sales, with the conservative nature of the design), I do think it is overpriced. What MSRP did it start out with...right around $50k? There is a psychological barrier right around the $50k mark that the RL failed to break.

I think had they priced the MSRP right around $43-45k from the beginning (before decontenting it), it would have sold much better because it is far enough away from $50k to attract buyers who were staying away from $50k but who would have stretched for slightly above $40k for a nice car. A lower MSRP closer to what people expect to pay would also boost the resale estimates (since resale is based on MSRP), and therefore make the residuals look much better and lease out better. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would buy this car for $43-45k (non-decontented version), about the price it is selling at now, but ended up not even considering it because of the $50k MSRP.

There is NOTHING wrong with the RL itself, but there is a lot wrong with the RL as a model being sold the way it is sold in the segment it is competing in at the price Acura tried to sell it at.

jhr3uva90

The majority of the RL's competitors were sold with V6 engines. The problem with the RL, in my opinion, isn't that the engine is too weak. The problem is the car is too heavy, thanks to SH-AWD. A little more torque would be nice, though.

mrdeeno

I'm not an Acura/Honda hater at all...I came from a Civic to a CL-S, and the RL had priority on my list...had it impressed me as much as I expected it to (all the dealers were rumoring of a V8 and RWD about a year before it was released, which got my hopes up).

when the RL came out, I really really wanted to like it. Had my choices been the M35x or M35 vs. the RL, I would have taken the RL without hesitation...but brand loyalty can only go so far against the M45 sport, and the Acura dealership's ignorance and arrogance helped seal the deal that I was going to buy the M45s.

mrdeeno

True that companies lower prices all the time, but not the automobile market.

When have you ever seen a car's MSRP lowered? I do not ever recalling seeing an MSRP lowered. There may be discounts or rebates or special financing or freebies, or negotiations that lower the actual sale price, but I don't ever recall seeing an MSRP actually lowered (save for full redesigns).

The iPhone example is comparing apples to oranges (no pun intended)...not because its comparing a phone to a car, but rather because the iPhone is a POPULAR product that COULD sustain its initial higher price point, but Apple wanted even more market penetration which is why they lowered prices. The RL could NOT sustain the higher initial price point, yet could not just lower the price either as I given a reason for before, which is why they had to decontent it. A closer analogy with the iPhone would be BMW lowering 3-series pricing...it's a POPULAR model that COULD sustain a higher price point, but lowering the price would be for more market penetration.

jhr3uva90

Then I guess Acura should have started the 2005 RL with a much lower MSRP, especially considering that it was much higher than invoice. It is just another example that Acura, as a marketing company, is not ready to graduate from near-luxury.

SpicyMikey

Well, like I was saying, price can ALWAYS be a solution for slow sales. That doesn't mean it's the source of the problem.

A fully equipped RL/Tech MSRP's for $49k and sells for much less. A comparably equipped GS350 is several thousand more. A 535 is $10,000 more. A E350 would run you $15000 more! What do you get for the extra money? In the case of the BMW you get lower reliability. In the case of the MB you get lower reliability AND poorer build quality.

I know what you're trying to say. Obviously your right! The car is not perceived as a value to the average lux sedan buyer. But, price is only one variable in the "value" equation. Something else clearly needs to be fixed besides the price.

Ac Man

The RL doesn't sell well because it doesn't have the status or "Prestige" that BMW and Mercedes brings, which is what many of you have already said. That is the "ONLY" reason, simple and plain. Acura just doesn't have the status that the leading brands have. If you own a BMW, without anyone knowing what you do or how much money you have, they're going to ASSUME that you have money or you're successful, Acura doesn't bring that to the table. Simply put, if you want to make a statement, you're going to get a Benz or a BMW, not an Acura. I know it's stupid and doesn't make sense because Acuras are excellent cars. If anything, people know that Acura is a great brand, that's why the MDX, TL and TSX have sold well throughout the years. Mind you, those vehicles cost less than the RL, so they're more affordable.

But when you start talking about spending 50K plus for a car, Acura is no longer an ideal choice in peoples minds at that price. People feel that if they're gonna spend that kind of money on a car, it has to make a statement. The RL doesn't make that statement, period. Think about it, if a millionaire pulls up in a BMW or Mercedes, nobody will question their choice of car. But if they pull up in a RL people might say, "Damn, all that money and he/she drives an Acura?". Is this right?, hell no, but that's just the way it is.

This is all Honda's fault anyway. They have this stubborn, conservative attitude towards the auto industry that works for Accords and Civics, but not for the RL. The fact that the RL is a great car makes this pill harder to swallow. If the RL was a piece of shit, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But, Acura has done a terrible job of building up the brand, that's the REAL problem why the RL isn't selling. Because most people don't feel that an Acura is worth 50K plus.

SpicyMikey

I think we all can accept that conclusion -- to one degree or another. Personally, I think that's more of the problem then the fact that it doesn't offer a v8 option, etc. I've always thought the problem was mostly a price point issue for the Acura brand. However, I have to admit I'm surprised at the degree of impact it has on sales.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not naive. I understand how important status, and image can be to many. Hell, it's something I like as well. However, I'm surprised HOW MANY people are willing to reach in their pocket and spend $10,000 more for a BMW 535 just so they can make a "fashion" statement. Is it THAT important that you impress your neighbors? Do most people really care what their neighbors think of them? It most be a combination of more things.

jhr3uva90

Yes! Just realize that part of the reason why Acura does not have the same status as other brands is because they don't offer a V8 and they don't offer a full-sized sedan. Think about it this way: the Lexus brand is 3 years younger than the Acura brand, yet Toyota was able to come out of nowhere and build the most popular luxury brand in the USA. Part of the reason why Lexus is taken seriously as a luxury brand is because they started out with the Lexus LS, which was a full-sized sedan witha V8 engine. LS sales tend to be less than Mercedes S-class or BMW 7-series sales, but at least the LS helps to create the preception of Lexus as a luxury brand. Like you said, HMC has traditionally taken the cautious approach, and the RL is part of that approach. Instead of creating a whole-new platform, the RL is basically the FWD-based global mid-sized platform with SH-AWD bolted on. The sad thing (to me) is that HMC/Acura is emulating Audi's approach. However, Audi actually sells FEWER cars than Acura does! Why copy those who are behind you? That's like a runner trying to act like someone who is running behind him instead of ahead of him. It's a shame, really. I would really like to see an Acura that can compete with the Lexus LS, and then have the RL as a GS competitor. Maybe it will happen someday.

SpicyMikey

Certainly a fullsized sedan added to the linup with a v8 would change their image overnight. Don't touch the RL (as some have suggested), especially if we conclude the problem isn't the car but the brand. Maybe they should just stop trying to make it the acura Flagship. It's a role it can't fullfill

Chas2

And if not, perhaps one day in the not too distant future, Acura will find itself chasing Hyundai. This article is from April 07, and ends with some audacious statement that after driving the new Hyundai Veracruz RX50, why would you buy a Lexus RX350?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...032901431.html

jhr3uva90

A full-sized flagship might not change Acura overnight, but imagine what would happen if the new Lexus LS were an Acura instead. Image the type of press Acura would be getting if they came out with an AWD full-sized car with a V8 hybrid engine.

And part of the problem is that the RL is not a true flagship, but it tend to be compared to flagships because it is the best Acura has right now. The expectations are very high if you try to compare an RL to a Mercedes S Class or 7 Series BMW. Granted, an Acura flagship might not be a huge seller, but it would put out a message. Also, an Acura flagship could have a V10 engine that could also be used in the replacement NSX and as an option in the RL.

SpicyMikey

No question, if Acura came out with a $65k fullsize v8 sedan, the sales would be terrible. It would take several years (and a lot of advertising) to move the perception of this brand upscale. But, without doing that, no amount of advertising would do any good. It's where they probably need to start, like Toyota did.