522 RLs Sold in August
09-12-2007, 04:37 PM
#121
Three Wheelin'
What if Acura came out with a $60K sedan and actually advertised it? Also, what if the new flagship was available on a new full-sized platform that could be be shrunk down to a mid-size? In other words, instead of having the RL based on the same platform as every other Acura and the Honda Accord, have it share a platform with the new flagship? Just make the new RL smaller (but the same size as the current RL) and offer the same engine as the flagship as an option? That could help differentiate the RL and spread the cost with a new flagship.
09-12-2007, 04:39 PM
#122
Go Big Blue!
Originally Posted by jhr3uva90
What if Acura came out with a $60K sedan and actually advertised it? Also, what if the new flagship was available on a new full-sized platform that could be be shrunk down to a mid-size? In other words, instead of having the RL based on the same platform as every other Acura and the Honda Accord, have it share a platform with the new flagship? Just make the new RL smaller (but the same size as the current RL) and offer the same engine as the flagship as an option? That could help differentiate the RL and spread the cost with a new flagship.
09-12-2007, 04:40 PM
#123
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
Of course the RL is a flagship. Every brand has a flagship. You do not have to be full sized or a V8 to be a brand flagship.
But categorically as a flagship the RL is an anomaly. It is not a fullsized flagship. It is not apples to apples as a luxury flagship (which apparently requires full size AND a V8 in the minds of most). And of course, as we are discussing, does the Acura brand have enough cache to be considered a luxury brand? Apparently not.
But keep in mind the RL is a dual purpose vehicle. It is the Global Honda flagship and the North American Acura flagship. That straddle is a good reason why it does not fit the apples to apples flagship categorization. Even Honda recongnizes the LEGEND is too much car for the Honda brand and not enough for the Acura brand (as a flagship).
I am very happy with the RL's configuration and being the Acura flagship. I realize I am the minority. I respect the viewpoint that is Acura wants to be branded as a luxury brand player, they NEED a bigger, V8+ flagship in the line up.
I only hope that means another model positioned above the RL? I fear what may be done to this magnificent vehicle in the name of bowing to popular perceptions (and the need to move metal).
But with the Accord moving up a few notches, the TL obviously will trump the Accord, the RL must follow suit. But does that the RL will become the meglamaniac everyone whines about to 'fit' flagship definition? Maybe so, I just hope it is purposeful more than fashion.
But categorically as a flagship the RL is an anomaly. It is not a fullsized flagship. It is not apples to apples as a luxury flagship (which apparently requires full size AND a V8 in the minds of most). And of course, as we are discussing, does the Acura brand have enough cache to be considered a luxury brand? Apparently not.
But keep in mind the RL is a dual purpose vehicle. It is the Global Honda flagship and the North American Acura flagship. That straddle is a good reason why it does not fit the apples to apples flagship categorization. Even Honda recongnizes the LEGEND is too much car for the Honda brand and not enough for the Acura brand (as a flagship).
I am very happy with the RL's configuration and being the Acura flagship. I realize I am the minority. I respect the viewpoint that is Acura wants to be branded as a luxury brand player, they NEED a bigger, V8+ flagship in the line up.
I only hope that means another model positioned above the RL? I fear what may be done to this magnificent vehicle in the name of bowing to popular perceptions (and the need to move metal).
But with the Accord moving up a few notches, the TL obviously will trump the Accord, the RL must follow suit. But does that the RL will become the meglamaniac everyone whines about to 'fit' flagship definition? Maybe so, I just hope it is purposeful more than fashion.
09-12-2007, 05:01 PM
#124
Three Wheelin'
I just don't think HMC cares all that much about luxury cars. I think they are more concerned with alternative-fuel vehicles, which has much more growth potential than luxury cars.
09-12-2007, 05:57 PM
#125
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Hey guys, you know all this hand wringing over WHY the Acura RL doesn't garner the respect (prestiege, status symbolism, cache, etc, etc.) seems to me to be just a case of a need for self-justification for being the owner of an RL in the first place.
In the marketing and advertising trade it's called "cognitive disonance" -- a form of second-guessing oneself about whether your purchase REALLY gives you all the satisfaction you thought it would, when you were going through the purcahse decision-making process.
Want to convince yourselve of the excellence of your choice and the real superiority of Acura's build-quality and engineering, compared to the "prestiege" marques (MB and BMW)? Then hop in your RL's and take a run down to the local Benz or Beemer dealership when they're closed and you can really inspect and compare the fit, finish, materials and under-body engineering and design with your own car alongside an E350 or 5 Series.
If you know only a fraction as much as I think you do, about things automotive, you'll come away with a new respect for and total satisfaction with the design, quality, refinement and excellence of finish of the RL.
You'll see expensive forged, light weight alloys where the German cars use ordinary steel stampings. You'll see body panel gaps that even American made cars now put to shame. And, you won't see, even in extra cost metallics, paint finishes worthy of the lofty price stickers.
Let the poseuers imagine that their Benz or Beemer tells the world what an automotive connoisseur they are.
As an Acura owner we can take genuine satisfaction in "knowing" that our cars actully "are" what the Benz and Beemer owners only imagine their cars to be -- after paying a premium price for what's really just an image.
Call me smug and self-satisfied, but knowing what a truly excellent product and superior value the RL is, is all the satisfaction I need.
In the marketing and advertising trade it's called "cognitive disonance" -- a form of second-guessing oneself about whether your purchase REALLY gives you all the satisfaction you thought it would, when you were going through the purcahse decision-making process.
Want to convince yourselve of the excellence of your choice and the real superiority of Acura's build-quality and engineering, compared to the "prestiege" marques (MB and BMW)? Then hop in your RL's and take a run down to the local Benz or Beemer dealership when they're closed and you can really inspect and compare the fit, finish, materials and under-body engineering and design with your own car alongside an E350 or 5 Series.
If you know only a fraction as much as I think you do, about things automotive, you'll come away with a new respect for and total satisfaction with the design, quality, refinement and excellence of finish of the RL.
You'll see expensive forged, light weight alloys where the German cars use ordinary steel stampings. You'll see body panel gaps that even American made cars now put to shame. And, you won't see, even in extra cost metallics, paint finishes worthy of the lofty price stickers.
Let the poseuers imagine that their Benz or Beemer tells the world what an automotive connoisseur they are.
As an Acura owner we can take genuine satisfaction in "knowing" that our cars actully "are" what the Benz and Beemer owners only imagine their cars to be -- after paying a premium price for what's really just an image.
Call me smug and self-satisfied, but knowing what a truly excellent product and superior value the RL is, is all the satisfaction I need.
09-12-2007, 06:29 PM
#126
Burning Brakes
+1. Well put Mr Zilla. 
The educated consumer will make an intelligent choice and be satisfied emotionally. The emotional consumer will make and emotional choice and might not be so happy when they find out what they could have had.
Rob144
The educated consumer will make an intelligent choice and be satisfied emotionally. The emotional consumer will make and emotional choice and might not be so happy when they find out what they could have had.
Rob144
09-12-2007, 07:58 PM
#127
Go Big Blue!
I think you're right Jack about much of that. We think we made a good decision and want to justify it in our mind to defend our decision.
But I already know I made a wise, logical, rational, decision (void of most emotion) when I purchased the RL. I think most of us here do. For me, I engage in these discussions with you guys because, first, I enjoy the discussions, but, secondly, because I'm curious to understand why people do what they do sometimes. It's just a puzzle and I enjoy the intellictual debate to try and solve it.
But I already know I made a wise, logical, rational, decision (void of most emotion) when I purchased the RL. I think most of us here do. For me, I engage in these discussions with you guys because, first, I enjoy the discussions, but, secondly, because I'm curious to understand why people do what they do sometimes. It's just a puzzle and I enjoy the intellictual debate to try and solve it.
09-12-2007, 08:01 PM
#128
Cruisin'
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Originally Posted by Jackzilla
Hey guys, you know all this hand wringing over WHY the Acura RL doesn't garner the respect (prestiege, status symbolism, cache, etc, etc.) seems to me to be just a case of a need for self-justification for being the owner of an RL in the first place.
In the marketing and advertising trade it's called "cognitive disonance" -- a form of second-guessing oneself about whether your purchase REALLY gives you all the satisfaction you thought it would, when you were going through the purcahse decision-making process.
Want to convince yourselve of the excellence of your choice and the real superiority of Acura's build-quality and engineering, compared to the "prestiege" marques (MB and BMW)? Then hop in your RL's and take a run down to the local Benz or Beemer dealership when they're closed and you can really inspect and compare the fit, finish, materials and under-body engineering and design with your own car alongside an E350 or 5 Series.
If you know only a fraction as much as I think you do, about things automotive, you'll come away with a new respect for and total satisfaction with the design, quality, refinement and excellence of finish of the RL.
You'll see expensive forged, light weight alloys where the German cars use ordinary steel stampings. You'll see body panel gaps that even American made cars now put to shame. And, you won't see, even in extra cost metallics, paint finishes worthy of the lofty price stickers.
Let the poseuers imagine that their Benz or Beemer tells the world what an automotive connoisseur they are.
As an Acura owner we can take genuine satisfaction in "knowing" that our cars actully "are" what the Benz and Beemer owners only imagine their cars to be -- after paying a premium price for what's really just an image.
Call me smug and self-satisfied, but knowing what a truly excellent product and superior value the RL is, is all the satisfaction I need.
In the marketing and advertising trade it's called "cognitive disonance" -- a form of second-guessing oneself about whether your purchase REALLY gives you all the satisfaction you thought it would, when you were going through the purcahse decision-making process.
Want to convince yourselve of the excellence of your choice and the real superiority of Acura's build-quality and engineering, compared to the "prestiege" marques (MB and BMW)? Then hop in your RL's and take a run down to the local Benz or Beemer dealership when they're closed and you can really inspect and compare the fit, finish, materials and under-body engineering and design with your own car alongside an E350 or 5 Series.
If you know only a fraction as much as I think you do, about things automotive, you'll come away with a new respect for and total satisfaction with the design, quality, refinement and excellence of finish of the RL.
You'll see expensive forged, light weight alloys where the German cars use ordinary steel stampings. You'll see body panel gaps that even American made cars now put to shame. And, you won't see, even in extra cost metallics, paint finishes worthy of the lofty price stickers.
Let the poseuers imagine that their Benz or Beemer tells the world what an automotive connoisseur they are.
As an Acura owner we can take genuine satisfaction in "knowing" that our cars actully "are" what the Benz and Beemer owners only imagine their cars to be -- after paying a premium price for what's really just an image.
Call me smug and self-satisfied, but knowing what a truly excellent product and superior value the RL is, is all the satisfaction I need.
09-12-2007, 09:08 PM
#129
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
Originally Posted by hungphan8
I did the same thing, but with a test drive of BMW 335 xi? in July. After driving for 5 minutes, I returned to the dealer and wonder why MSRP is ~40k (a bare model)! Even the seats are manual. The transmission is jerky. The car is noisy... Not a single thing I like (except styling). But I see quite a few people in my area (seattle) driving one. My collegue has a brand new AWD 5 series (~60k+). I was in the back trying to compare to the RL. I think I still prefer the RL. At ~42, 43 k, nothing can beat RL. However, I think the nav and bluetooth link are a little old compared to Lexus. I like to be able to enter phone number on the nav, the nav displays both street name and number, and limit the search by region (so that it can search faster), instead of displaying addresses thousands of miles away! In lexus, the screen can split into 2, quite nice.
My perspective on Toyota/Lexus navs since my Land Cruiser has the exact same Nav that is installed in the Lexus models.
Inputing the number on the screen is worthless since it grays out the buttons once the car starts to move. Even if you use the Navi hack, it doesn't work for the phone features. Limiting search by reagion isn't that big of a dealo since you can sort by distance in the Acura system. Also I don't notice any quicker calculations between the nav in my LC versus the RL.
Additionally, the nav in the Acura adjusts ETA based on the speed in which you travel. with the Toyo/Lexus version you select the speed to be used for residential/rural/highway speeds. It doesn't adjust based on your speed.
Voice recognition is absolutely worthless on my LC. Now I do have the Gen IV Nav, and I've heard that there has been marginal improvements with the Gen V system, but nowhere close to the Acura version.
I'll tell you something. THe Nav in my old '01 TL was still more user friendly and intuitive than the system in the LC.
I've lived with the Nav in my '01 TL, In my Land Cruiser and now in my RL. Hands down, every other manufacturer doesn't come close to the NAV systems in the Acuras.
Period.
09-12-2007, 10:37 PM
#130
Suzuka Master
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Originally Posted by Jackzilla
Hey guys, you know all this hand wringing over WHY the Acura RL doesn't garner the respect (prestiege, status symbolism, cache, etc, etc.) seems to me to be just a case of a need for self-justification for being the owner of an RL in the first place.
In the marketing and advertising trade it's called "cognitive disonance" -- a form of second-guessing oneself about whether your purchase REALLY gives you all the satisfaction you thought it would, when you were going through the purcahse decision-making process.
Want to convince yourselve of the excellence of your choice and the real superiority of Acura's build-quality and engineering, compared to the "prestiege" marques (MB and BMW)? Then hop in your RL's and take a run down to the local Benz or Beemer dealership when they're closed and you can really inspect and compare the fit, finish, materials and under-body engineering and design with your own car alongside an E350 or 5 Series.
If you know only a fraction as much as I think you do, about things automotive, you'll come away with a new respect for and total satisfaction with the design, quality, refinement and excellence of finish of the RL.
You'll see expensive forged, light weight alloys where the German cars use ordinary steel stampings. You'll see body panel gaps that even American made cars now put to shame. And, you won't see, even in extra cost metallics, paint finishes worthy of the lofty price stickers.
Let the poseuers imagine that their Benz or Beemer tells the world what an automotive connoisseur they are.
As an Acura owner we can take genuine satisfaction in "knowing" that our cars actully "are" what the Benz and Beemer owners only imagine their cars to be -- after paying a premium price for what's really just an image.
Call me smug and self-satisfied, but knowing what a truly excellent product and superior value the RL is, is all the satisfaction I need.
In the marketing and advertising trade it's called "cognitive disonance" -- a form of second-guessing oneself about whether your purchase REALLY gives you all the satisfaction you thought it would, when you were going through the purcahse decision-making process.
Want to convince yourselve of the excellence of your choice and the real superiority of Acura's build-quality and engineering, compared to the "prestiege" marques (MB and BMW)? Then hop in your RL's and take a run down to the local Benz or Beemer dealership when they're closed and you can really inspect and compare the fit, finish, materials and under-body engineering and design with your own car alongside an E350 or 5 Series.
If you know only a fraction as much as I think you do, about things automotive, you'll come away with a new respect for and total satisfaction with the design, quality, refinement and excellence of finish of the RL.
You'll see expensive forged, light weight alloys where the German cars use ordinary steel stampings. You'll see body panel gaps that even American made cars now put to shame. And, you won't see, even in extra cost metallics, paint finishes worthy of the lofty price stickers.
Let the poseuers imagine that their Benz or Beemer tells the world what an automotive connoisseur they are.
As an Acura owner we can take genuine satisfaction in "knowing" that our cars actully "are" what the Benz and Beemer owners only imagine their cars to be -- after paying a premium price for what's really just an image.
Call me smug and self-satisfied, but knowing what a truly excellent product and superior value the RL is, is all the satisfaction I need.
I don't know how much engineering or automotive experience you have, but I have to disagree with you.
As an mechanical engineer, I inspected/checked everything on the cars I test drove and ultimately decided on the M45 sport. The RL and M were on par as quality of materials and fit and finish were concerned. I checked everything, even to the way the windshield washers sprayed, so i'm not bullshitting you. The RL "layout" was nicer, but fit/finish and quality of materials were not anywhere near as "above" any other car of the same class as you make it out to be.
As for Benz or Bimmers, my family is a benz family and I would put the fit and finish of a comparable benz (E-class) up against the RL any day. With that being said, I would give the fit and finish edge to the benz by a long shot, but reliability (based on history) to the RL by a long shot. I have no idea where the "expensive forged light weight alloys" that Acura uses where the Germans use regular steel stampings...NONE of the body panels of the Acura are "forged expensive alloys", so please provide a specific examples, because I do not see what you are seeing (especially when everything is painted).
I can't comment on the 5-series, but from what I have heard and seen, again it's fit and finish is on par if not above the RL, and from what I know, the 5-series uses more "expensive lightweight" materials than the RL.
09-13-2007, 08:18 AM
#131
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
I think he was referring to the aluminum in the suspension and body panels along with the carbon fiber drive shaft. Saying that, I have to admit I haven't done much research as to how much more aluminum the Rl has over the competition.
09-13-2007, 08:20 AM
#132
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
I saw a commercial last night. A simple meadow with a bird standing in the grass. No cars, no product. The voiceover was "....inflate your intelligence, not your ego..." Then at the bottom of the screen was a very subtle Hyundai logo.
Hmmmm.... I had almost hoped it was an Acura commercial. *sigh*
It appears Hyundai is approaching the branding recognition issue before it's upmarket products hit the road (i.e Genesis). I would think they want to open up public perceptions of the brand FIRST before touting the products to be launched.
Smart.
Hmmmm.... I had almost hoped it was an Acura commercial. *sigh*
It appears Hyundai is approaching the branding recognition issue before it's upmarket products hit the road (i.e Genesis). I would think they want to open up public perceptions of the brand FIRST before touting the products to be launched.
Smart.
09-13-2007, 10:18 AM
#133
Racer
With everything that has been said, Acura is not in bad shape like we make them out to be. No, they're not #1 in sales, but they're not dead last either. I think that Honda/Acura is starting to get it. I am very confident that the next generation of vehicles coming will change the perception and sales of the brand (The RL really). Now that Acuras will be designed on there own and not by Honda, separate drive trains and platforms (SH-AWD), better technology, etc. this will help to further seperate Acura from Honda.
In due time people won't look at Acura as an "Upscale Honda" anymore and the brand will be able to stand on its own. I think this is why Honda Dummed down the new Accord. Honda could have easily put turn signal mirrors, push button start and other gadgets in there, but where would that have left the Acura brand? You definately don't want Accords and TLs, RLs to have the same gadgets, because what would be the justification to buy an RL if the Accord has similar gadets and technology? I think by Honda backing off a little, this will give Acura room to flourish. Now the marketing and advertising departments is another animal!
It's kind of frustrating that people always associate Acura with Honda. Not neccessarily in a bad way, but still. How many times has somebody complimented you on your car and said, "Nice Acura, plus they're made by Honda so you know it's a good car". I can't stand that. People don't associate Lexus with Toyota, or Infiniti with Nissan the way they associate Acura with Honda. And that's why people don't feel an Acura is worth 50K plus. Because they THINK it's a 50K plus Honda. Hell, just until recently you had Honda labels all over Acuras. I don't want to drive an Acura and see a Honda label on my windshield! What the fuck were they thinking? So actually, Honda has helped to kill RL sales. Everywhere else in the world, the RL is the Honda Legend, does that sound like a 50K plus flagship car to you? Goes right back to the whole prestige thing. You can't make much of a statement with your RL if it's called a Honda elsewhere in the world!
In due time people won't look at Acura as an "Upscale Honda" anymore and the brand will be able to stand on its own. I think this is why Honda Dummed down the new Accord. Honda could have easily put turn signal mirrors, push button start and other gadgets in there, but where would that have left the Acura brand? You definately don't want Accords and TLs, RLs to have the same gadgets, because what would be the justification to buy an RL if the Accord has similar gadets and technology? I think by Honda backing off a little, this will give Acura room to flourish. Now the marketing and advertising departments is another animal!
It's kind of frustrating that people always associate Acura with Honda. Not neccessarily in a bad way, but still. How many times has somebody complimented you on your car and said, "Nice Acura, plus they're made by Honda so you know it's a good car". I can't stand that. People don't associate Lexus with Toyota, or Infiniti with Nissan the way they associate Acura with Honda. And that's why people don't feel an Acura is worth 50K plus. Because they THINK it's a 50K plus Honda. Hell, just until recently you had Honda labels all over Acuras. I don't want to drive an Acura and see a Honda label on my windshield! What the fuck were they thinking? So actually, Honda has helped to kill RL sales. Everywhere else in the world, the RL is the Honda Legend, does that sound like a 50K plus flagship car to you? Goes right back to the whole prestige thing. You can't make much of a statement with your RL if it's called a Honda elsewhere in the world!
09-13-2007, 11:00 AM
#134
Cruisin'
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Originally Posted by Ac Man
With everything that has been said, Acura is not in bad shape like we make them out to be. No, they're not #1 in sales, but they're not dead last either. I think that Honda/Acura is starting to get it. I am very confident that the next generation of vehicles coming will change the perception and sales of the brand (The RL really). Now that Acuras will be designed on there own and not by Honda, separate drive trains and platforms (SH-AWD), better technology, etc. this will help to further seperate Acura from Honda.
In due time people won't look at Acura as an "Upscale Honda" anymore and the brand will be able to stand on its own. I think this is why Honda Dummed down the new Accord. Honda could have easily put turn signal mirrors, push button start and other gadgets in there, but where would that have left the Acura brand? You definately don't want Accords and TLs, RLs to have the same gadgets, because what would be the justification to buy an RL if the Accord has similar gadets and technology? I think by Honda backing off a little, this will give Acura room to flourish. Now the marketing and advertising departments is another animal!
It's kind of frustrating that people always associate Acura with Honda. Not neccessarily in a bad way, but still. How many times has somebody complimented you on your car and said, "Nice Acura, plus they're made by Honda so you know it's a good car". I can't stand that. People don't associate Lexus with Toyota, or Infiniti with Nissan the way they associate Acura with Honda. And that's why people don't feel an Acura is worth 50K plus. Because they THINK it's a 50K plus Honda. Hell, just until recently you had Honda labels all over Acuras. I don't want to drive an Acura and see a Honda label on my windshield! What the fuck were they thinking? So actually, Honda has helped to kill RL sales. Everywhere else in the world, the RL is the Honda Legend, does that sound like a 50K plus flagship car to you? Goes right back to the whole prestige thing. You can't make much of a statement with your RL if it's called a Honda elsewhere in the world!
In due time people won't look at Acura as an "Upscale Honda" anymore and the brand will be able to stand on its own. I think this is why Honda Dummed down the new Accord. Honda could have easily put turn signal mirrors, push button start and other gadgets in there, but where would that have left the Acura brand? You definately don't want Accords and TLs, RLs to have the same gadgets, because what would be the justification to buy an RL if the Accord has similar gadets and technology? I think by Honda backing off a little, this will give Acura room to flourish. Now the marketing and advertising departments is another animal!
It's kind of frustrating that people always associate Acura with Honda. Not neccessarily in a bad way, but still. How many times has somebody complimented you on your car and said, "Nice Acura, plus they're made by Honda so you know it's a good car". I can't stand that. People don't associate Lexus with Toyota, or Infiniti with Nissan the way they associate Acura with Honda. And that's why people don't feel an Acura is worth 50K plus. Because they THINK it's a 50K plus Honda. Hell, just until recently you had Honda labels all over Acuras. I don't want to drive an Acura and see a Honda label on my windshield! What the fuck were they thinking? So actually, Honda has helped to kill RL sales. Everywhere else in the world, the RL is the Honda Legend, does that sound like a 50K plus flagship car to you? Goes right back to the whole prestige thing. You can't make much of a statement with your RL if it's called a Honda elsewhere in the world!
09-13-2007, 11:10 AM
#135
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I don't know how much engineering or automotive experience you have, but I have to disagree with you.
As an mechanical engineer, I inspected/checked everything on the cars I test drove and ultimately decided on the M45 sport. The RL and M were on par as quality of materials and fit and finish were concerned. I checked everything, even to the way the windshield washers sprayed, so i'm not bullshitting you. The RL "layout" was nicer, but fit/finish and quality of materials were not anywhere near as "above" any other car of the same class as you make it out to be.
As for Benz or Bimmers, my family is a benz family and I would put the fit and finish of a comparable benz (E-class) up against the RL any day. With that being said, I would give the fit and finish edge to the benz by a long shot, but reliability (based on history) to the RL by a long shot. I have no idea where the "expensive forged light weight alloys" that Acura uses where the Germans use regular steel stampings...NONE of the body panels of the Acura are "forged expensive alloys", so please provide a specific examples, because I do not see what you are seeing (especially when everything is painted).
I can't comment on the 5-series, but from what I have heard and seen, again it's fit and finish is on par if not above the RL, and from what I know, the 5-series uses more "expensive lightweight" materials than the RL.
As an mechanical engineer, I inspected/checked everything on the cars I test drove and ultimately decided on the M45 sport. The RL and M were on par as quality of materials and fit and finish were concerned. I checked everything, even to the way the windshield washers sprayed, so i'm not bullshitting you. The RL "layout" was nicer, but fit/finish and quality of materials were not anywhere near as "above" any other car of the same class as you make it out to be.
As for Benz or Bimmers, my family is a benz family and I would put the fit and finish of a comparable benz (E-class) up against the RL any day. With that being said, I would give the fit and finish edge to the benz by a long shot, but reliability (based on history) to the RL by a long shot. I have no idea where the "expensive forged light weight alloys" that Acura uses where the Germans use regular steel stampings...NONE of the body panels of the Acura are "forged expensive alloys", so please provide a specific examples, because I do not see what you are seeing (especially when everything is painted).
I can't comment on the 5-series, but from what I have heard and seen, again it's fit and finish is on par if not above the RL, and from what I know, the 5-series uses more "expensive lightweight" materials than the RL.
As for BMW, you don't find the number of alloy components in the RL on a Beemer, until you move up to the 7-series. And, even there you'll find a McPherson strut front suspension instead of the aluminum double wish-bones used by Acura.
As for the fit and finish on the Benz, you don't even need a caliper (the naked eye is good enough) to see that the gaps around the doors, hood and rear deck lid are considerably wider than those of Acura. BMW is somewhat better, but still not as closely fitted as the RL.
Paint finish is in the eye of the beholder, but my eyes see far more micro-orange peel in the paint on Benz's and Beemers than I do on Acuras. Certainly, when a company charges an "extra" $900 for an ordinary metallic paint job (not a tri-tone or pearlescent) one would reasonably expect a flawless, glass-smooth finish, such as Lexus provides on its LS pearl finishes -- and at NO EXTRA cost.
Suggest you take another more careful look at what kind of material quailty some of these vaunted German brands are offering. It's not all that you think it may be, and it surely isn't worth the extra premiums they're asking. And, surely, as a mechanical engineer, you can recognize that Acura's double wish-bone front suspension is superior in maintaining low friction and proper tire contact patch geometry (though more costly) than the McPherson struts used throughout BMW's line
09-13-2007, 11:27 AM
#136
Go Big Blue!
Originally Posted by Jackzilla
As for BMW, you don't find the number of alloy components in the RL on a Beemer, until you move up to the 7-series. And, even there you'll find a McPherson strut front suspension instead of the aluminum double wish-bones used by Acura.
I haven't seen it yet, but I'm dying to drive it and watch how it does over the next couple years in terms of reliability. The MB was a nightmare for her. She had it in the shop 5 times in 3 years. I'll stick with my jap cars
09-13-2007, 11:35 AM
#137
Three Wheelin'
[QUOTE=mrdeeno]I don't know how much engineering or automotive experience you have, but I have to disagree with you.
As an mechanical engineer, I inspected/checked everything on the cars I test drove and ultimately decided on the M45 sport. The RL and M were on par as quality of materials and fit and finish were concerned. I checked everything, even to the way the windshield washers sprayed, so i'm not bullshitting you. The RL "layout" was nicer, but fit/finish and quality of materials were not anywhere near as "above" any other car of the same class as you make it out to be.
All things equal, the audio system in the M was the worst I have heard in a high end car. I rejected the M for that reason. I wonder if you checked the that out as well. As I have said many many times, at the 45k and up range its all nit picking with the exception of reliability. That bing said, at this point I would never consider a German car, or american. Do the math and you cannot beat an the RL. I am still tying too!
As an mechanical engineer, I inspected/checked everything on the cars I test drove and ultimately decided on the M45 sport. The RL and M were on par as quality of materials and fit and finish were concerned. I checked everything, even to the way the windshield washers sprayed, so i'm not bullshitting you. The RL "layout" was nicer, but fit/finish and quality of materials were not anywhere near as "above" any other car of the same class as you make it out to be.
All things equal, the audio system in the M was the worst I have heard in a high end car. I rejected the M for that reason. I wonder if you checked the that out as well. As I have said many many times, at the 45k and up range its all nit picking with the exception of reliability. That bing said, at this point I would never consider a German car, or american. Do the math and you cannot beat an the RL. I am still tying too!
09-13-2007, 04:09 PM
#138
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Originally Posted by dwest1023
All things equal, the audio system in the M was the worst I have heard in a high end car. I rejected the M for that reason. I wonder if you checked the that out as well. As I have said many many times, at the 45k and up range its all nit picking with the exception of reliability. That bing said, at this point I would never consider a German car, or american. Do the math and you cannot beat an the RL. I am still tying too!
quality of an audio system is SUBJECTIVE, unlike quality of materials and components used, which is objective.
I was not impressed by the RL stereo any more than the M's system...so please tell me how your OPINION is an objective observation.
Thanks again for your OPINION.
09-13-2007, 04:26 PM
#139
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Originally Posted by Jackzilla
I guess you never bothered to inspect the undercarriage of a MB. The lower control arms of the rear suspension, for example, are stamped-steel welded-up assemblies. Acura's entire front and rear suspension system (except the front coil-over spring assembly) is aluminum forgings. Also, the cradles attaching the suspension and power train (huge pieces) are entirely aluminum.
As for BMW, you don't find the number of alloy components in the RL on a Beemer, until you move up to the 7-series. And, even there you'll find a McPherson strut front suspension instead of the aluminum double wish-bones used by Acura.
As for BMW, you don't find the number of alloy components in the RL on a Beemer, until you move up to the 7-series. And, even there you'll find a McPherson strut front suspension instead of the aluminum double wish-bones used by Acura.
As for the fit and finish on the Benz, you don't even need a caliper (the naked eye is good enough) to see that the gaps around the doors, hood and rear deck lid are considerably wider than those of Acura. BMW is somewhat better, but still not as closely fitted as the RL.
Paint finish is in the eye of the beholder, but my eyes see far more micro-orange peel in the paint on Benz's and Beemers than I do on Acuras. Certainly, when a company charges an "extra" $900 for an ordinary metallic paint job (not a tri-tone or pearlescent) one would reasonably expect a flawless, glass-smooth finish, such as Lexus provides on its LS pearl finishes -- and at NO EXTRA cost.
Suggest you take another more careful look at what kind of material quailty some of these vaunted German brands are offering. It's not all that you think it may be, and it surely isn't worth the extra premiums they're asking. And, surely, as a mechanical engineer, you can recognize that Acura's double wish-bone front suspension is superior in maintaining low friction and proper tire contact patch geometry (though more costly) than the McPherson struts used throughout BMW's line
09-13-2007, 04:33 PM
#140
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BTW, my '96 civic had the "double-wishbone" suspension you seem to like so much...I guess that's why my Civic could outhandle any BMW with their "inferior" McPherson strut suspension.
09-13-2007, 05:24 PM
#141
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
quality of an audio system is SUBJECTIVE, unlike quality of materials and components used, which is objective.
I was not impressed by the RL stereo any more than the M's system...so please tell me how your OPINION is an objective observation.
Thanks again for your OPINION.
I was not impressed by the RL stereo any more than the M's system...so please tell me how your OPINION is an objective observation.
Thanks again for your OPINION.
09-13-2007, 05:42 PM
#142
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
quality of an audio system is SUBJECTIVE, unlike quality of materials and components used, which is objective.
I think Infiniti/Nissan has a lower interior quality than Acura/Honda.
09-13-2007, 05:47 PM
#143
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
quality of an audio system is SUBJECTIVE, unlike quality of materials and components used, which is objective
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Are you serious? Are you really going to mention "paint" as an advantage for Acura? HAHAHAHA
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I guess that answers why the RL I test drove rattled like a snake...everything is assembled so closely together!
I've been in 2 late model M-Bs over the last year, and the interiors of each of them creaked and jiggled more than any other "luxury" car I've ever been in. The late-model S-class car had cracked wood on the dash, a transmission lever that could get stuck in gear, and a trunk that wouldn't open.
Observations about the quality and engineering of the RL's alloy suspension components are hardly saying "the RL is a superior handling car while the 5-series is criticized as a has-been car in the handling/ride department."
Maybe these higher quality parts don't result in a car that outhandles a BMW 5 series, but they certainly make a compelling case that the RL is a higher quality and better engineered car.
Rob144
09-13-2007, 06:09 PM
#144
Go Big Blue!
Originally Posted by Rob144
Maybe these higher quality parts don't result in a car that outhandles a BMW 5 series, but they certainly make a compelling case that the RL is a higher quality and better engineered car.
Rob144
Rob144
We were playing with it in my driveway for about 20 minutes. I got her Phone paired up. That wasn't any harder then the RL, except, the PIN number is not set by YOU, it comes preset for that particular car. We had to hunt through the owners manual looking for the sticker that had her pin#. Why did they do that? Germans
The IDrive was very confusing. I see what people are talking about. No where near as intuitive as the RL interface and voice commands. Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think the voice recognition controls the climate system. The subcommands off the main menu (when you say HELP), only said RADIO, CD, NAVIGATION, and a couple others. When I tried saying "Temperature 72", or other variants of that, it got confused.
All in all, with the 20 minutes I had to investigate, I came away liking it but still very appreciative of my RL and it's value. I certainly liked it much better then her MB S class she traded in (what a piece of shit). Of course, it's not worth $90k, but with the phenom deal she got with the lease, her payments are only $1100. It's the only way to get that car. You can't buy it. Now I see why 70% of BMW's are leased. You can't beat their lease deals.
Sorry to highjack the thread with BMW talk. Just thought it might be interesting to the RL'ers on this thread.
09-13-2007, 06:49 PM
#145
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by SpicyMikey
My sis just dropped by to show me her new BMW 7 Series. Fully loaded. I took it for a spin and must say I was impressed. I suppose I should be, it MSRP's for $90k. Regardless, it was VERY nice. Very solid, lots of tech! Even has a built in phone pad that comes out of the dash when you push a button. Its not a phone, but it allows you to enter #'s directly to your paired phone. no need to say "send 0", etc. when talking with answering system menus. That's nice.
We were playing with it in my driveway for about 20 minutes. I got her Phone paired up. That wasn't any harder then the RL, except, the PIN number is not set by YOU, it comes preset for that particular car. We had to hunt through the owners manual looking for the sticker that had her pin#. Why did they do that? Germans
The IDrive was very confusing. I see what people are talking about. No where near as intuitive as the RL interface and voice commands. Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think the voice recognition controls the climate system. The subcommands off the main menu (when you say HELP), only said RADIO, CD, NAVIGATION, and a couple others. When I tried saying "Temperature 72", or other variants of that, it got confused.
All in all, with the 20 minutes I had to investigate, I came away liking it but still very appreciative of my RL and it's value. I certainly liked it much better then her MB S class she traded in (what a piece of shit). Of course, it's not worth $90k, but with the phenom deal she got with the lease, her payments are only $1100. It's the only way to get that car. You can't buy it. Now I see why 70% of BMW's are leased. You can't beat their lease deals.
Sorry to highjack the thread with BMW talk. Just thought it might be interesting to the RL'ers on this thread.
We were playing with it in my driveway for about 20 minutes. I got her Phone paired up. That wasn't any harder then the RL, except, the PIN number is not set by YOU, it comes preset for that particular car. We had to hunt through the owners manual looking for the sticker that had her pin#. Why did they do that? Germans
The IDrive was very confusing. I see what people are talking about. No where near as intuitive as the RL interface and voice commands. Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think the voice recognition controls the climate system. The subcommands off the main menu (when you say HELP), only said RADIO, CD, NAVIGATION, and a couple others. When I tried saying "Temperature 72", or other variants of that, it got confused.
All in all, with the 20 minutes I had to investigate, I came away liking it but still very appreciative of my RL and it's value. I certainly liked it much better then her MB S class she traded in (what a piece of shit). Of course, it's not worth $90k, but with the phenom deal she got with the lease, her payments are only $1100. It's the only way to get that car. You can't buy it. Now I see why 70% of BMW's are leased. You can't beat their lease deals.
Sorry to highjack the thread with BMW talk. Just thought it might be interesting to the RL'ers on this thread.
09-13-2007, 07:44 PM
#146
Go Big Blue!
Originally Posted by dwest1023
Thanks for the writeup. It made for good reading. I have never driven the 7 series, because there is no way I could afford that beast, at least not new. If BMW ever tfot their reliability act together it would be one brand I could consider. That 5 series twin turbo is very nice too. It would be nice if the next generation RL comes with a phone keypad too. I must say, I use the voice commands very little as I mostly drive with the windows down, and we know how well the commands work that way.
That would be cool in the RL. Of course the other thing it had was cooled seats. Don't even get me started on that missing feature in the RL.
09-13-2007, 08:09 PM
#147
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You know, MRDEENO, for someone putting themselves forward as a mechanical engineer, you betray a remarkably obtuse knowledge of what constitutes the best engineering practice in suspension design.
It happens to be a fact that in Formula I racing, where every aspect of suspension design is optimized for utimate performace, double-wishbone suspension is THE ONLY type employed -- and its components are made of the lighest, strongest material currently available, carbon fibre. So, Acura's use of lightweight aluminum for their suspensions parts demonstrates a design philosophy dedicated to offering customers the best possible design, whether most of them can appreciate it or not.
BMW's MacPhearson strut front suspension, which I never said was inadaquet or did not perform its basic intended function, has only one outstanding advantage -- which as a mechanical engineer I'm surprised you don't recognize -- IT'S CHEAP TO MANUFACTURE.
Your belief that the quality of paint finish on an automobile is immaterial as an indicator of quality suggests more interest in displaying disdain for others criteria in evaluating quality, than in contributing some substantive observation about what constiutes a high value product.
Early on you indicated you had purchased an Infinti M45 sport. I'm wondering why, although it is certainly your privilege, you spend so much time denigrating others discussions of the Acura RL? It would't be cognitive dissonance over your automotive choice, would it?
A final parting thought: for all the purported shortcomings you find with the RL, Acura IS still building it. The same cannot be said for Ininiti's original flagship car, the Q45. IT had a big V8, rear-wheel drive, even active suspension and all the other must have items that you've suggested the RL needs to be a market success. Any thoughts on why the Q45 was such a flop, if big power and rear-wheel drive are what it takes to play in the luxury big leagues?
It happens to be a fact that in Formula I racing, where every aspect of suspension design is optimized for utimate performace, double-wishbone suspension is THE ONLY type employed -- and its components are made of the lighest, strongest material currently available, carbon fibre. So, Acura's use of lightweight aluminum for their suspensions parts demonstrates a design philosophy dedicated to offering customers the best possible design, whether most of them can appreciate it or not.
BMW's MacPhearson strut front suspension, which I never said was inadaquet or did not perform its basic intended function, has only one outstanding advantage -- which as a mechanical engineer I'm surprised you don't recognize -- IT'S CHEAP TO MANUFACTURE.
Your belief that the quality of paint finish on an automobile is immaterial as an indicator of quality suggests more interest in displaying disdain for others criteria in evaluating quality, than in contributing some substantive observation about what constiutes a high value product.
Early on you indicated you had purchased an Infinti M45 sport. I'm wondering why, although it is certainly your privilege, you spend so much time denigrating others discussions of the Acura RL? It would't be cognitive dissonance over your automotive choice, would it?
A final parting thought: for all the purported shortcomings you find with the RL, Acura IS still building it. The same cannot be said for Ininiti's original flagship car, the Q45. IT had a big V8, rear-wheel drive, even active suspension and all the other must have items that you've suggested the RL needs to be a market success. Any thoughts on why the Q45 was such a flop, if big power and rear-wheel drive are what it takes to play in the luxury big leagues?
09-13-2007, 08:17 PM
#148
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Originally Posted by CL6
Wouldn't the difference in weight be OBJECTIVE but the 'quality' of 'materials' be SUBJECTIVE?
I think Infiniti/Nissan has a lower interior quality than Acura/Honda.
I think Infiniti/Nissan has a lower interior quality than Acura/Honda.
"quality" is an objective trait. You can have a lower quality material or a higher quality material...someone may like the lower quality material better, but liking something over another does not mean it is better "quality".
as for Infiniti/Nissan interior quality...I would give the M the edge in interior quality vs. the RL. Most of the materials in the M are about equal to the RL, but there were many things in the RL that really turned me off (the rattles during a test drive on a model with around 100 miles on it and those nice plastic boomerang things screamed COST CUTTING). I prefer the layout of the RL, but did not see anything in the materials or quality that made it exceptionally better at all.
I don't know about the new G35/G37, and I the FX's interior is in need of heavy upgrading, but a blanket statement like "Infinit/Nissan has lower quality..." is just that, a "blanket" statement that does not apply to every model.
And it's funny how the 1st gen g35 and FX had low quality materials yet have since improved (especially the 2nd gen G35), yet the Acura lovers still like to claim that Infiniti/Nissan has low quality interiors...they conveniently forget that only ONE generation ago, the 2nd gen TL and CL were the posterchildren for cost cutting and low quality interiors in their respective classes. Are you telling me people have forgotten about the "bowling ball" trim or the hard plastic dash and center console and plastic aluminum-like shiftgate trim?
09-13-2007, 08:28 PM
#149
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Originally Posted by Jackzilla
You know, MRDEENO, for someone putting themselves forward as a mechanical engineer, you betray a remarkably obtuse knowledge of what constitutes the best engineering practice in suspension design.
It happens to be a fact that in Formula I racing, where every aspect of suspension design is optimized for utimate performace, double-wishbone suspension is THE ONLY type employed -- and its components are made of the lighest, strongest material currently available, carbon fibre. So, Acura's use of lightweight aluminum for their suspensions parts demonstrates a design philosophy dedicated to offering customers the best possible design, whether most of them can appreciate it or not.
BMW's MacPhearson strut front suspension, which I never said was inadaquet or did not perform its basic intended function, has only one outstanding advantage -- which as a mechanical engineer I'm surprised you don't recognize -- IT'S CHEAP TO MANUFACTURE.
It happens to be a fact that in Formula I racing, where every aspect of suspension design is optimized for utimate performace, double-wishbone suspension is THE ONLY type employed -- and its components are made of the lighest, strongest material currently available, carbon fibre. So, Acura's use of lightweight aluminum for their suspensions parts demonstrates a design philosophy dedicated to offering customers the best possible design, whether most of them can appreciate it or not.
BMW's MacPhearson strut front suspension, which I never said was inadaquet or did not perform its basic intended function, has only one outstanding advantage -- which as a mechanical engineer I'm surprised you don't recognize -- IT'S CHEAP TO MANUFACTURE.
I guess that's why Formula 1 racing cars are also FWD or AWD too, right?
As for appreciating the "best engineering practice in suspension design", double-wishbones may be the "best" when it comes to formula 1 cars on a perfectly flat track, but it is not the "best" when it comes to production cars. And as a mechanical engineer, I appreciate what WORKS best, not what someone or some company can "appreciate" for the sake of complexity.
Early on you indicated you had purchased an Infinti M45 sport. I'm wondering why, although it is certainly your privilege, you spend so much time denigrating others discussions of the Acura RL? It would't be cognitive dissonance over your automotive choice, would it?
A final parting thought: for all the purported shortcomings you find with the RL, Acura IS still building it. The same cannot be said for Ininiti's original flagship car, the Q45. IT had a big V8, rear-wheel drive, even active suspension and all the other must have items that you've suggested the RL needs to be a market success. Any thoughts on why the Q45 was such a flop, if big power and rear-wheel drive are what it takes to play in the luxury big leagues?
09-13-2007, 08:34 PM
#150
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Originally Posted by dwest1023
I am sure your ears can detect the difference between a transistor radio and a quality audio system. That was the difference to my ears. BTW tell me which stock audio system has impressed you.
Then you must have been listening to a broken audio system, because my M45's system is not as "bad" as you keep on claiming.
You act like the RL's stereo is God (in this thread and many others)...please get off your soapbox...it is not exceptionally better than the M's, especially since I can't tell the difference and I have not seen any other people complain about it. Maybe it's just that you're so "special", or that it's a matter of OPINION.
(seriously, get off your "my opinions are facts" soapbox).
09-13-2007, 09:58 PM
#152
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
(seriously, get off your "my opinions are facts" soapbox).
Thank god you're here to keep all of us "fanboys" in line.
09-13-2007, 10:28 PM
#153
Senior Moderator
Sigh.
C'mon guys, we're not snot-nosed school-aged kids. Don quoted me correctly. Keep it civil and on topic. Tired of hearing about fanboys on either side.
C'mon guys, we're not snot-nosed school-aged kids. Don quoted me correctly. Keep it civil and on topic. Tired of hearing about fanboys on either side.
09-13-2007, 11:07 PM
#154
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
"quality" is an objective trait. You can have a lower quality material or a higher quality material...someone may like the lower quality material better, but liking something over another does not mean it is better "quality".
as for Infiniti/Nissan interior quality...I would give the M the edge in interior quality vs. the RL. Most of the materials in the M are about equal to the RL, but there were many things in the RL that really turned me off (the rattles during a test drive on a model with around 100 miles on it and those nice plastic boomerang things screamed COST CUTTING). I prefer the layout of the RL, but did not see anything in the materials or quality that made it exceptionally better at all.
I don't know about the new G35/G37, and I the FX's interior is in need of heavy upgrading, but a blanket statement like "Infinit/Nissan has lower quality..." is just that, a "blanket" statement that does not apply to every model.
And it's funny how the 1st gen g35 and FX had low quality materials yet have since improved (especially the 2nd gen G35), yet the Acura lovers still like to claim that Infiniti/Nissan has low quality interiors...they conveniently forget that only ONE generation ago, the 2nd gen TL and CL were the posterchildren for cost cutting and low quality interiors in their respective classes. Are you telling me people have forgotten about the "bowling ball" trim or the hard plastic dash and center console and plastic aluminum-like shiftgate trim?
as for Infiniti/Nissan interior quality...I would give the M the edge in interior quality vs. the RL. Most of the materials in the M are about equal to the RL, but there were many things in the RL that really turned me off (the rattles during a test drive on a model with around 100 miles on it and those nice plastic boomerang things screamed COST CUTTING). I prefer the layout of the RL, but did not see anything in the materials or quality that made it exceptionally better at all.
I don't know about the new G35/G37, and I the FX's interior is in need of heavy upgrading, but a blanket statement like "Infinit/Nissan has lower quality..." is just that, a "blanket" statement that does not apply to every model.
And it's funny how the 1st gen g35 and FX had low quality materials yet have since improved (especially the 2nd gen G35), yet the Acura lovers still like to claim that Infiniti/Nissan has low quality interiors...they conveniently forget that only ONE generation ago, the 2nd gen TL and CL were the posterchildren for cost cutting and low quality interiors in their respective classes. Are you telling me people have forgotten about the "bowling ball" trim or the hard plastic dash and center console and plastic aluminum-like shiftgate trim?
As for your continual mention of rattles, I have absolutely ZERO rattles in my '06 which has about 22K on the clock right now, and aside from those who purchased early model '05s, I think you'll find few complaints about rattles in the RL, so try to keep some of those criticisms in perspective. I'm sure there has never been a complaint about rattles on the Infiniti forums... right?
09-13-2007, 11:26 PM
#155
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
As for the Strut vs. Double wishbone suspension conversation, you're diluting the argument when you start mentioning the drive train layout. On suspension layout alone (Not drive train configuration) I bet you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would argue against the fact that a double wishbone suspension is a superior design to a Macpherson strut layout. The Double wishbone suspension does a better job of keeping the tire planted when cornering.
Hondas have always been known for their handling characteristics. BMW may have eeked and squeezed out every bit of performance they can out of the struts, and that is a testament to their engineering, but from a pure design standpoint, all things being equal, double wishbone is a more desireable layout.
The issue at hand with most Honda/Acuras is that they're burdened with a FWD layout. Therefore as good as a double wishbone suspension may be, it cannot overcome the laws of physics by having the majority of the car's weight sitting on the wheels that are also doing the steering.
Hondas have always been known for their handling characteristics. BMW may have eeked and squeezed out every bit of performance they can out of the struts, and that is a testament to their engineering, but from a pure design standpoint, all things being equal, double wishbone is a more desireable layout.
The issue at hand with most Honda/Acuras is that they're burdened with a FWD layout. Therefore as good as a double wishbone suspension may be, it cannot overcome the laws of physics by having the majority of the car's weight sitting on the wheels that are also doing the steering.
09-14-2007, 12:56 AM
#156
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Then you must have been listening to a broken audio system, because my M45's system is not as "bad" as you keep on claiming.
You act like the RL's stereo is God (in this thread and many others)...please get off your soapbox...it is not exceptionally better than the M's, especially since I can't tell the difference and I have not seen any other people complain about it. Maybe it's just that you're so "special", or that it's a matter of OPINION.
(seriously, get off your "my opinions are facts" soapbox).
You act like the RL's stereo is God (in this thread and many others)...please get off your soapbox...it is not exceptionally better than the M's, especially since I can't tell the difference and I have not seen any other people complain about it. Maybe it's just that you're so "special", or that it's a matter of OPINION.
(seriously, get off your "my opinions are facts" soapbox).
Gosh, you are rude.. It's funny how through all your posts you are always trying to put down the RL; the fact that you are still actively posting in this board says it all!. :pathetic:
You are obviously a happy M45 owner, well congratulations and good for you!, Its a nice car however personally I can't stand Nissan's design-quality-ergonomics; not even close to Acura's obsession for details or Lexus for that matter. As a Japanese myself, living in the States, I don't give a damn about your luxury rebadging, all I know is that the Honda Legend is a much much better car all around than the Nissan Fuga. For me, Nissan is a second tier car brand, with too much negative influence from Renault.
09-14-2007, 01:25 AM
#157
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Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud....
Eventually, you realize the pig likes it!
I have owned 3 Nismo products - each time I said never again. I think I finally learned my lesson.
Eventually, you realize the pig likes it!
I have owned 3 Nismo products - each time I said never again. I think I finally learned my lesson.
09-14-2007, 07:14 AM
#158
Go Big Blue!
I'm going to come to MrDeen's defense here -- sort of. Yes, he's biased, but so are we.
I still think he adds more to this debate then he takes away. It's good to have different perspectives in this forum, otherwise, we end up being what he suggests; just a bunch of fanboys patting each other on the back about how smart we are to have made the decisions we made.
We all just need to stop puffing, and stick to the facts -- as hard as that may be. As some already pointed out, you can't debate subjective issues. Opinions are just that. Links to facts and specs are what I personally find interesting, not people's opinions.
I still think he adds more to this debate then he takes away. It's good to have different perspectives in this forum, otherwise, we end up being what he suggests; just a bunch of fanboys patting each other on the back about how smart we are to have made the decisions we made.
We all just need to stop puffing, and stick to the facts -- as hard as that may be. As some already pointed out, you can't debate subjective issues. Opinions are just that. Links to facts and specs are what I personally find interesting, not people's opinions.
09-14-2007, 07:28 AM
#159
Torch & Pitchfork Posse
I am a fan of my RL. I love it. I am very happy with the decision I made. That is my choice. But I do not feel a need to stomp on every post that had opposing or varied views from mine. When I see a thread like this I try to 'step away from the keyboard!'. But this time, enough is enough. So time for my 
.
I think the point is more about targeting those who do not agree with you. Disagreement is healthy. Debate is good. But the tone and a right & wrong mentality is just juvenile.
If you do not agree with the spirit of a post, fine. Post your opinion. But there is not need to counter every opinion and qualify every statement. It is nothing more than a pissing match to see who last can leave musk marks. *yawn*
No one here is absolute. If there was absolute resolutions for these topics there would only be one car in the world and we all would be driving it. I'd hate that.
There is no need for every thread to end with a 'I am right, you are wrong' mentality. Instead I learn much more by reading (listening) to various views and weigh them upon my own. Talking over each other is something short tempered, narrow minded children do. Engaging in dialogue is something adults do.
If you enjoy the urine assaults, try the OTHER web board.
.I think the point is more about targeting those who do not agree with you. Disagreement is healthy. Debate is good. But the tone and a right & wrong mentality is just juvenile.
If you do not agree with the spirit of a post, fine. Post your opinion. But there is not need to counter every opinion and qualify every statement. It is nothing more than a pissing match to see who last can leave musk marks. *yawn*
No one here is absolute. If there was absolute resolutions for these topics there would only be one car in the world and we all would be driving it. I'd hate that.
There is no need for every thread to end with a 'I am right, you are wrong' mentality. Instead I learn much more by reading (listening) to various views and weigh them upon my own. Talking over each other is something short tempered, narrow minded children do. Engaging in dialogue is something adults do.
If you enjoy the urine assaults, try the OTHER web board.
09-14-2007, 07:43 AM
#160
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lower Nazzie, Pa
Age: 46
Posts: 5,349
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Originally Posted by cai06
Gosh, you are rude.. It's funny how through all your posts you are always trying to put down the RL; the fact that you are still actively posting in this board says it all!. :pathetic:
You are obviously a happy M45 owner, well congratulations and good for you!, Its a nice car however personally I can't stand Nissan's design-quality-ergonomics; not even close to Acura's obsession for details or Lexus for that matter. As a Japanese myself, living in the States, I don't give a damn about your luxury rebadging, all I know is that the Honda Legend is a much much better car all around than the Nissan Fuga. For me, Nissan is a second tier car brand, with too much negative influence from Renault.
You are obviously a happy M45 owner, well congratulations and good for you!, Its a nice car however personally I can't stand Nissan's design-quality-ergonomics; not even close to Acura's obsession for details or Lexus for that matter. As a Japanese myself, living in the States, I don't give a damn about your luxury rebadging, all I know is that the Honda Legend is a much much better car all around than the Nissan Fuga. For me, Nissan is a second tier car brand, with too much negative influence from Renault.
As for the Honda Legend being a "much much better car all around than the Nissan fuga", thanks for supporting that statement with examples.
I don't put down Acura or the RL, I just state what is true about it and what is not...which is more than what I can say for you since you are the one downing other cars.