Yeahh son, but what you DON'T know is that I've been racing and tuning for a long time and own 2 4 cylinder vehicles that will spank most K series cars and I actually know how to tune. I've also been extensively involved in Cam research and testing on my specific engine and have benefitted from the results.

Again, knowledge is key here. You have to know that the Honda K series engine is a DOHC engine and the AC's are SOHC. I can take an intake or exhaust cam gear and move it one notch and get more or less horsepower from just that simple 2 second tuning adjustment. When you understand the principle of DOHC and the relationship to the intake valves and exhaust valves opening and closing for different lengths of time and when they open and close, you will begin to understand how a 40hp increase is achieved. I gurantee you wont get the same result with the 3.0 or 3.2.

This is not a flame, its just to enlighten board members who may not be as knowledgeable as Im sure you are.

 

i dnt thnk anyone is lookin for 40whp gains here but im sure even a minimum of 10whp on a NA engine would make the majority of ppl jump on the cams...

 

Correct, 10-15whp is what we're looking for and is reasonable. The 3.0's going with the type S cams untuned saw a minimum 10whp increase (it varied from member to member because of the mods, location, blah blah blah). At most there was a 15whp increase with that cam swap alone on the 3.0

So, if we can get similar results, I'm more than sure most members will be satisfied with just that. Coming from a car that doesn't have much aftermarket support, we'll take whatever we can...

 

Damnit! I have a compression leak they said! I called them for a small update, but they said they'll call me back with the full details of everything.

 

point taken, but all knowledge aside, i've seen some pretty wild things. the point is, you will not know until you try it. i never once promised any specific number. all i said was what we are hoping to achieve. you have no idea how aggressive we made the cams so understanding the physics of valves is not going to predict the future. we have to try it, and if it fails, so be it, at least we can say we tried.

 

So once again have the specs been finalized and if so what kind of specs are we going to run? Is it the RL specs for both vtec and non-vtec lobes, just this time they'll fit

 

OK, fair enough.

If 10-20 HP gains are decent numbers then let me know if you guys are interesting in trying some new ideas that I may fairly familiar with on the Forced induction side of things. Again, the Super ITC which advances the timing thru the ecu can be a monster of a mod if you know how to datalog and tune. Datalogging in itself can get you additional HP without having to goto a dyno everytime you change something or get a new mod.

Hopefully the cams are a big success.

 

the apex itc is an interesting device, however it's not made anymore and I don't beleive it would work with this particular ecu. I saw that it was listed for an odessey, although i think some earlier oddesseys came with a 4banger(maybe that one) , but think it's possible that's in error. I've run a emanage for quite some time, and you could not advance the timing on this motor, not even one degree! It looks like the itc is similar in function to the emanage, except for the other features the emange does.

One reason I suspect that it's hard to overcome advancing the timing on this motor is on the cam gear, there are 4 pick up triggers on the gear. I beleive if there were one, it would be doable. I don't understand the 4, what do other honda 4banger use, dohc and sohc models?

 

First let me qualify that I dont profess to be a honda expert, my expertise is more with DSM's. I believe the B, H and K series DOHC's have 3 lobes. To my knowledge, the two smaller ones bump the valves below 6k rpms and then final stage vtec kicks in and the middle lobe gives a different lift and duration allowing for more power. Of course, with the use of a SUPER AFC vtec version, you can trick the ecu into having vtec kick in wherever you want. (I think it kicks in at 4800 on the CL)

The CL's share the same configuration as the D series motors in that they are SOHC VTEC. I have heard that SOHC VTECH's dont like too much lift, but are much more efficient with longer duration. When you are experimenting with grinds, try to keep this in mind. I have also heard that it is a good idea to upgrade your valve springs. I personally recommend that and upgraded retainers. Most of your 4 banger power gains are on the high side from 4500 to 6500 rpms. Fair gains in low end to mid range. I have heard good things from a company called exospeed. While I haven't used them myself, I cannot fully endorse them. Check them out at your own risk.

 

You missed the question, I'm not talking about primary, secondary or vtec(mid) lobes, we all know how that works.

 

Well Jim, one of your questions I thought I clearly answered by giving you what the other four bangers use. Maybe instead of which camshaft type each engine series uses, you meant which after market cams they are utilizing for decent gains? If that is so, then I have heard everything from crower to

The only other question that I can extract from your paragraphs is what do four lobes do on YOUR engines vtec that 3 lobes do on others. Didnt wanna insult your intelligence here, but I assumed that you knew that your vehicle is considered 24 valve SOHC. Each of the lobes controls a different valve when that camshaft spins around driven by the crankshaft. It not only drives the intake valves, but i drives your exhaust valves. DOHC engines have two cams, each of which drives its own designated set of valves, either intake or exhaust. Less work to do means fewer lobes needed. It still has that extra lobe to drive in VTEC mode. So, in essence, it has more work to do, not only because it drives exhaust AND intake valves, it drives valves in VTEC mode.

On your information about emanage and the itc:
True, it is not made anymore, but neither is the 1970 Boss Mustang.
Check Ebay periodically and you can find anything from ITC's to JIMmy hoffa.
Also, the ITC is a very easy hookup. Power, ground and 4 other wires that connect to each end of your CAM angle sensor and your CRANK angle sensor. Like Emanage, the ITC tricks the ECU into seeing a different numerical value read in volts or milivolts and causes the internal programing to adjust timing based on when the cranshaft makes its rounds each revolution.

Hope this thoroughly answered your questions Jim.

 

You know, now the point is moot. If you read what I wrote, I never so much as suggested "cam lobe", or how does vtec or sohc work, or how many valves our motor has, what cams each engine series uses, blab,blab. What I did ask was in reference to the cam gear and why I think the ITC won't work with our motors. The ITC turned out to be your topic. The question was if you knew how many triggers are on the stock 4 banger cam gears? I know how many triggers are on the j32, but not the 4bangers. I don't want to insult your inteligence here, but read and we won't be going through this horseshit.

 

 

LOL at horseshit ! Tell you what Jimmy, before you get anymore upset than you already are, Im going to keep tuning my cars and let you handle your own, that way you won't try and hold me accountable for how slow your car is.

Goodaye mate.

 

You're not going to gain credibility on this site with this type of attitude. ThinJim asked a specific question on your stated area of knowledge - how many triggers are on the stock 4 banger cam gears?

You either know or you don't.

Plus ThinJim has the highest documented WHP build on these boards at over 460whp - far from slow.

 

kooo stuff

 

Auto type-S cam gear on left, Manual cam gear on right. The manual has much different shape pickup points as well

 

Whatever girl, uh..gurl.

 

CleanCL: Did you get my pm? What do you think?

 

we are looking for more along the lines of a stock car or minor bolt-ons to get realistic results.

 

Like I said to Jim, Im sorry if I hurt his feelings in any way, I also started out saying that I wasn't trying to start a flame war, looks like we have some real sensitive people here, so again, I am only trying to state facts that will help out those who can extract positives from what Im offering. I already stated that my expertise is not in honduh its in DSM's.

I applaud anyone who takes pride in their vehicle and builds it up to ANY level, stock or 460HP. However, you can take Jim, all of his mods and documents, and line up next to my lil 4 banger and .............................

 

dude you still didn't answer his question or are you choosing to be an arse?

 

My feelings aren't hurt at all, I find this fun. It's evident you don't know what your talking about and still have not acknowledged the question that you did not comprehend as others have. Your just blowing up what ever self proclaimed forum knowledge you've obtained from being a forum flea (jumping from one forum to another since you probably won't comprehend the meaning) and wordsmith'd it to your fashion.

Basically, your clueless, oblivious, and living in a wannabe fantasy tuning land. If your expertise is not in honduh (which your spelling is disrespectful in itself to the other honda enthusiast on this board), then what is the purpose of you even trying to interject your opinion in the method you have done so? You know nothing of these motors and can't answer a simple questions about triggers on the cam gear. Any good tuner would have that basic understanding, and you sir are not a tunner.

So in short Kevin, lets you and I not add any more drama to this thread on Camshafts. Your empty imput had nothing to do with aftermarket cams, so, l say it's time you grabbed your flea bag and jump to another forum and dazzle a new group with your knowledge.

 

thinjim > *

 

something of interest to note, i picked up the cam gears for the 04+RL and they only have 3 pickup triggers.

 

Interesting, what does that mean for all of us? Also why dd you pick up the RL cam gears?

 

I suppose Im just going to throw in the type s cams in my type p

 

Ok guys I will let you all know whats going on in the DC area. I need to make my car faster for these maxima guys. They haven't beat me yet, but I know if they keep on modding there cars they will. I haven't done nothing yet, Well I really want to get the ball rolling. I am SC so I need to know where to start and wat to do. Guys this is really serious. They was calling my car slow acura, but not anymore. I dont want to put the high boost pulley on. I just want to up grade parts on the motor, Thanks in advance guys. This is s serious project. Over all I want to make my car faster and its my everyday driver to. So HELP HELP HELP

 

Are you even supercharged? You want more power, but don't want the HBP?

 

By the Hope aftercooler kit that Kan is selling:
http://www./forums/showthread.php?t=...highlight=Hope

This with the HBP should make your car faster and daily driveable.

It will probably be around $2100 for the aftercooler and the HBP unless you already have the pulley.

 

so where's the guinea pig?

 

I'll be the guniea pig if no one else wants to be, unless I have too many mods in your opinion

 

well, watcha got?

 

I'm in

 

Well besides the J32 6spd swap, on top of that I have:
-AEM CAI v1
-DIY upper IM port/polish (haven't done the bottom yet)
-UR SS pulley set
-Comptech headers
-stock Accord cat (also have RT cat)
-Magnaflow Accord catback 2.25-2.0 piping (stock CLS size)
-Apexi NEO vafc


Not too much else for performance mods. Last time before I put the RT cat on and did the DIY port/polish of the upper IM I put down 278 at the hubs over at Church's.

 

How is it that the Apexi Neo can have gains with the CLS ECU, but the regular VAFC's don't produce any? Is the Neo closer to an Emanage?

From what I remember, the VAFC's changed the info going into the ECU, and the ECU would alter it and change it canceling any gains from a tuned VAFC. An Emanage, would change the info coming out of the ECU, thus providing you with results from a tuned Emanage.

So my question again, is the Neo more like the Emanage as far as how it functions? Or is it worthless to the CLS like the VAFC? I ask this, because I was told the Neo was nothing more than a VAFC and a SAFC put together.

 

I have pondered these same questions quietly to myself ever since I bought the VAFC...

AV6400M, 278whp is decent with those mods, but possibly a bit too much? I think either a stock CL(s) or nothing more than I/H/E as I thought Cleancl had mentioned.

 

If you are supercharged, an easy way to faster your car even faster is with the Hope Intercooler. I am selling mine if you're interested.

 

Check out post number 230 I already mentioned your thread

The Neo has twice as many points, and looks cooler, guess you just need a good tuner when it comes down to it.

Well when you look at the thing sthat really matter, I pretty much have only I/H/P exhaust maybe since the piping is stock diameter and the mufflers are just a tad better then the CLS mufflers, so not much on the exhaust side really.

Up to CleanCL

 

We have a manifold Air Pressure Sensor (not a Mass Airflow Sensor). So when the VAFC adjusts the air/fuel ratio, the ECU notices that the intake manifold pressure is higher, and corrects it. There is a diode or resister on the ECU supposedly that can alter this so that the auto learning feature is disabled.