I find it unfortunate that you have to delete posts that don't favor your beloved CL(S). You bicker with Lexus owners and someone comes along and posts a story about beating your Acura and you delete it. Gimme a break.
I realize that we all love our own make and sometimes it's hard to be totally objective but I have to say that you guys continue to ignore facts, reason and general automotive knowledge. Is the IS 300 a piece of crap? Come on. Please. Is the inline six a tough engine to derive power from? Come on. Ever heard of Porshe or BMW?
I think it would behoove everyone if you cut back on the defensive and insecure posts as well as embrace more facts.
Just my two cents.

 

which porsche, exactly, has an inline 6? I've heard of various boxers and a couple of inline 4s, but never heard of i-6s from the porsche camp...

kinda like the mythical i-4 harley-davidson.

[This message has been edited by tankmonkey (edited 02-16-2001).]

 

Current engines as we all know are horizontally opposed but Porsche built Volvo's 24V inline six for the 960 and abandoned another internal project that was based on the same technology. And we sure as hell know what the M5 can do. Stay tuned for the manual IS and what L-Tuned/TRD does to that inline six. This will make for some fun competition between the CL-S and IS.

 

the engine in the 960 wasn't anything to write home about (at least until it got turbocharged on the s80) and I think comparing the is300 engine to it (even indirectly) is a disservice to is300 owners.

gee, porsche abandoned the engine design? wonder why?

yes, we certainly do. we also know:

1. you aren't driving an m5
2. bmw switched to a v8 for the current m5

so then the is300's straight line performance might actually catch up to the heavier, less expensive, auto equipped cl-s?!?? better late than never, I guess.

'course, some folks chose the cl-s because it's fast, auto or otherwise.

as far as l-tuned/trd is concerned, speed equals money and most anything can be made faster by the simple application of scads of cash...

 

Getting pissy, are we?
1) At the time the engine was built it was a very nice, reliable block that produced north of two hundred horsepower. If that isn't any good in a large four door for you, fair enough. Do you know why Porsche abandoned the project? Well I don't know either.
2) Thanks for the update on the new M5 b/c I was totally unaware of the 4.0 v8 or the limited production 3.0 v8 they produced over five years ago. My point, numbnuts, is that BMW has gotten spectacular performance from this technology many years ago and will further that with the upcoming M3.
3) No, I don't own an M5. I own a GS 400. What's your point?
4) You're right, the CL(S) is a good solid buy that I almost made but the car struck no emotion from me. You get what you pay for, dude, and you've bought yourself a nicely equipped and tuned Accord coupe. And don't even start with the IS and Altezza. Totally different engine. And there is NO relationship to the Corolla as you jokers like to think.

 

you picked the song, I'm just singin' along with you...


odd. by the time the 960 was axed in favor of the s80 it was churning out *less* than 200hp. either way, not a terribly impressive example with which to sway a skeptical audience.


then clearly you were aware that the m5 is actually a 4.9 liter v8 (as opposed to the 4.4).

my point, slapd!ck, is that bmw clearly thought they'd reached the [admittedly high] limits of what the previous gen m5 motor could reliably do.


no point. just a lucky guess...

I think gs 400s are awesome cars, but you aren't *really* here to find out what I think, are you?


and you clearly had a somewhat larger car-buying budget than many who bought the cl-s, myself included.

would I like a gs 400? hell yes! where do I sign?

but the price of entry is, alas, too rich for my blood.


you're letting your predjudices show again...


yeah, and totally different performance. but at least l-tuned/trd mods will help even out the horsepower issue, right?


aw, c'mon. really?


[This message has been edited by tankmonkey (edited 02-16-2001).]

 

One might ask why IS300 owners are so ticked that some CL-S owners (and a small number at that) are talking a little shit on a CL-S board?

On the topic of engines, execution is at least as important as theoretical advantages. An inline 6 is exceptionally smooth and inherently balanced. However, it's long crank (longer than anything short of a V12) tends to develop torsional issues sooner than the cranks of shorter engines. Thus, to make a high revving I6 you've got to pay close attention to the bottom end. If you're not going to go to forced induction (and void your warranty) you're going to need more displacement or more revs to get more power.

The 3.0 in the IS is a nice motor (I've spent a lot of time in an SC300 manual with a similar motor - more hp, but apparently the VVT-i provides a better torque curve in the IS), but I question what its maximum hp potential NA is. It's a pretty old motor, valvetrain updates notwithstanding. 215-225 hp out of 3.0 liters is very respectable and I could see a 240-250 hp version of the IS engine from Toyota. But I have been shocked not only by the factory output of the J32 in the Cl-S, but by the way it responds to simple modifications. With a simple header, intake and exhaust this is a legitimate 300 hp engine! That's only 30 hp short of BMW's similarly sized M3 engine in a car that is substantially less expensive (and less technologically advanced - lower compression, SOHC, no infinitely variable valve timing, no individual throttle bodies). Not to mention the engine is based on that horrible Accord powerplant :-).

Anyways, you guys should lighten up. You'd complain if someone was talking smack on your board (with good reason), you complain that people are doing it here, next you'll complain because someone might be doing it in the privacy of their own home :-) All anyone has said is that they think it's a piece of shit (not agreed with by everyone), that it's slow compared to a CL-S (it is, sorry, but that's the truth) and that they don't like it. A couple of subjective opinions and a fact. Do you really care that much about people's opinions here?

UL

 

ultimate lurker, where you from... switzerland?

 

Just a couple points of clarification:
1) The 960 DID have just north of 200 hp.
2) Everyone has their opinions and I respect that but I confess it bothers me when people abandon all objectivity and call any Lexus or Acura a POS. Are IS owners bitter about acceleration shortfalls? Sure, but they are also cognizant of it's stellar midrange power, rwd prowess over fwd and its truer suspension. Yet, it seems that IS owners don't call the CL(S) a POS.
3) I'm always interested in a good exchange of information and enjoy new information, insight and opinions more than most people. I don't have a need to be right.
4) I have no allegiance to any particular car make so I can unequivically say that I am objective in my posts about the CL(S) and its obvious derived transformation from the Accord, both in chassis and looks. I concede that it probably offers the best value for under 35 grand. Value doesn't always dictate the best purchase for everyone, however. Here's hoping for more amiable exchanges between both groups.

 

indeed. from 92-94 it produced 201 hp. however, what I said was that by the time it was axed in favor of the s80, it was producing *less* than 200. 181 hp, in fact, from 95-97. why do you suppose that happened, anyway?


I certainly agree with you there. however, your original post in this thread seems to be a bit inflammatory towards the general population, rather than those who you feel slighted you: the moderators/admin you allege deleted some of your posts. if you have a problem with that, maybe you could take it up with those folks directly, or you could target your public criticisms a little more precisely.

otherwise, it's just something else for the rest of us to harrass you with.


what, exactly, is a "truer suspension?" is this a "less false" one?

I'm just curious, because I was under the impression that both cars run a double wishbone-type front and rear, and the primary issue is which wheels are driven and the resulting weight distribution issues.

if you're simply of the opinion that the IS is the better handler, just say so. sheesh.


can't speak for the others, but some of this may have to do with the near-constant trolling by non-CLers with less than honorable intentions...


how much new information, insight and opinions do *most* people enjoy, anyway? can you quantify?


I guess I wasn't clear about this. I'm not questioning *facts*, such as whether the two cars share platform and component engineering. rather, I'm questioning the *interpretation*, specifically yours, of this information. why, exactly, do you imply that using the accord as a starting point for the CL is such a "Bad Thing?"

my impression of the accord is that it is a thoroughly up-to-date and well-engineered car: solid chassis design, double wishbone suspenders, advanced engine design, high build quality, etc. it seems to me there are many worse cars out there to start from when designing a sporty-luxo coupe, fwd or otherwise.

from an aesthetics standpoint, your opinion is every bit as valid as everyone else's, so I guess we'll all just have to live with some dissention in this regard. sorry 'bout that.


ditto on both points.

 

Well, I have no idea what was inflamatory about by original post. It came from the heart and seems to be on the money. Don't you think?
*Concerning the decantered inline six I almost liken that to what Infiniti did with the Q: why change it? It's a mystery to me.
*The IS has a truer suspension in that it is more faithful to spirited driving. Yea, it has rwd and better weight distribution but it also handles much flatter and better than
the CLS. Can you attribute this solely to weight distribution and fwd? I doubt it.
*Your comment about my statement of enjoying a good exchange of information baffles me.
*The Accord is a good car but you don't take a loaf of bread and turn it into a sporting coupe, ever. My point is that the S2000 ground up philosophy should have been applied to the CLS. It's too bad that didn't happen. The car would have been more handsome, more than likely, and certainly rwd and a better handler.
*Last, please give me some latitude on voicing my complaints to the general populas. Okay? And please, stop being such a nazi when it comes to specific wording just b/c a gerund might be incorrect or loosely based. You're not my professor for Rhetoric 101. But I'll give you this, you're probably an interesting person, albeit a little argumentative and anal.

 

Liar.

I've been here for at least two months now, and excepting the last few days, I've seen all of one troll post, and that was from the bimmer forum. In contrast, I see cheap shots at the IS300 on a weekly basis both here and in the General forums. Perform a search for "IS300" and/or "Corolla" and you can see for yourself.

As everyone knows, trolls bash other cars to declare the superiority of what they own. I'd say that's kinda hard to do that without referencing said car. It's also kind of telling that the vast majority (95%?) of the posts that that contain "IS300" and/or "Corolla" are from CL-S regulars with high post counts. Some regulars have even gone as far as to incorporate IS300 swipes into their signatures.

However, what should be said is that there has been a recent decline in cheap shots, refrainment from trolling in the IS300 forums, and increasing recognition that the IS300 and CL-S are both great cars executed with different foci. That's certainly a positive direction.

But don't pass this kind of BS to put the blame on us.

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051/LP/SR/LD/HH

[This message has been edited by DtEW (edited 02-19-2001).]

 

First of all, I don't think anything has gotten deleted about racing an IS because those posts go into the racing stories forum and nothing as far as I know has gotten deleted here. Only Adam mods it, and he usually doesn't delete or move shit, he leaves that to his mods.

Secondly, trolling of the IS boards by members of this board or tims board I am sure has pretty much stopped. There were problems with the IS people coming to Tim's board and trolling in retaliation and causing problems, but I think the trolling has for the most part stopped.

------------------
True Hip-hop junkie

 

I believe the word you're looking for is "pedantic"...

(and I must say that I'm resisting the urge to inquire as to how the addition of "-ing" to a verb can cause it to become "loosely based"... )


[This message has been edited by tankmonkey (edited 02-20-2001).]

 

whoa there, chief... that was my *opinion*. (hence, the phrase "can't speak for the others")

wanna disagree with me? knock yourself out! but don't go around calling other people liars because you fail to see their point of view.

 

Oh. Sorry. I missed that part. But I've made my counterpoint.

For whatever reason, there's still a lot of sniping at the IS300. That's not for anybody to do anything about, since this is, after all, a CL board. But part of the reason I've been here all this time is to determine the veracity of some CL-S trolls' claim that they're retaliating for trolling on CL-S boards. This is the reason why I've been keeping in touch with the moderators of both forums, acting as a kind of whistleblower (crybaby?). While I can't say anything about the time previous to my arrival, as far as I've seen until the last few days there has been no trolling by IS300 people, and even those in the last few days didn't really qualify as trolling since none tried to slam the CL's.

There's been no justification for the continued sniping.

------------------
051/LP/SR/LD/HH

[This message has been edited by DtEW (edited 02-20-2001).]

 

"your probably just some
weak kid who thinks hondas are the best car on earth. cant wait til you grow up to be a real
man and learn what a real car can do."
That was a quote that Ronin posted on a different topic. But maybe your right, that doesn't sound like bashing at all ...

 

And that explains all the derogatory remarks that the CL-S board has leveled at the IS300 previous to that, sure. Here's some I found with a half-@ssed search from just the past 30 days:

http://www.acura-cl.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000649.html
http://www.acura-cl.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000844.html
http://www.acura-cl.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000928.html
http://www.acura-cl.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000993.html
http://www.acura-cl.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001120.html
http://www.acura-cl.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001146.html
http://www.acura-cl.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001439.html
http://www.acura-cl.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001597.html
http://www.acura-cl.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000011.html

And eclipse23 has an interesting signature. Hope he doesn't ever meet up with Accord-R.

(3rd post, 4-day-old account? Too scared to stand behind your regular nick?)

------------------
051/LP/SR/LD/HH

 

Dtew,

What is your problem? This is an Cl board, hence the over enthusiasm for the CL. Who annointed you the IS/CL moderator? Sure there has been bashes to the IS in the past, but that's true for bashes of the CL on the IS board. Heck a lot of the bashes on the IS board have been with misinformation that owners of other cars had to correct. Plus, this happened way beforeyou were here. But since I've been on this board, the mood has changed. We no longer really care about the IS. Yes we do snipe at it every once in a while but it's all in a joking manner, just like we would any other car. Sure some take it further than others. If you were to ask anyone I don't think they really care about the IS. Do you not have a life that you consistently do this. I have found some of your posts to be very insightful. But posts like this makes me wonder is you're schizo or not. These are posted in the racing forum where the testosterone level may be a little higher.

 

Your a very confused person...
First you claim that no one from the IS300 side has been bashing:

"I've seen until the last few days there has been no trolling
by IS300 people, and even those in the last few days
didn't really qualify as trolling since none tried to slam the
CL's."

Then when I prove you wrong with Ronin's quote you decide to forget your original argument and proceed to waste you time searching for IS300 bashing. And what's with the conspiracy therory? You think that since I just started posting that I'm really a person who's been here a while, and I decided to create a new nick? Why would I need to hide on a web board????!!!! As I've posted on a different topic, I don't even have a CL-S. Your getting all wrapped up in emotion which is really making your premise questionable.

 

well, the fact that your "half-@ssed search" mostly turned up threads where the phrase "is300" is simply mentioned is telling...

some of those threads even debate the merits of the is300 (and eclipse and bmw 3-series, etc.) versus the mighty (on this board, at least) cl. and in each of those debates, someone had the unmitigated gall to hold the (apparently unpopular with you) position that the is300 (or eclipse or bmw 3-series, etc.) is the lesser car for whatever reason. the fact that there are numerous people on this board (yourself included, apparently) doing a fine job of championing the opposing viewpoint isn't satisfactory to you for some reason...

I'm just a little confused about what you are trying to prove by citing all these threads? that the is300 (and eclipse and bmw 3-series, etc.) gets short-shrift on this board? gee, thanks for the info.

I think a more important issue to discuss is the thin-skinned nature of certain is300 owners (and is300 hangers-on) with regard to their beloved car...

maybe you're just confused as to what constitutes "bashing" in this day and age of free discussion (and extreme political correctness). maybe we should just be referring to the is300 as being (currently and in stock form, all caveats for the is300 crowd) "performance challenged" and having a "differently sized" interior...

seriously, if you're really so shocked and appalled that a cl discussion board would be frequented by people who (vocally) prefer the cl over most other cars, your naiveté is every bit as touching as it is surprising.

maybe if you is300 lovin' guys weren't so darn paranoid all this would be more fun for you...

[This message has been edited by tankmonkey (edited 02-21-2001).]

 

Read what I said a few posts up:

"For whatever reason, there's still a lot of sniping at the IS300. That's not for anybody to do anything about, since this is, after all, a CL board."

And that's good. I've seen this too. Again, read a few posts up:

"However, what should be said is that there has been a recent decline in cheap shots, refrainment from trolling in the IS300 forums, and increasing recognition that the IS300 and CL-S are both great cars executed with different foci. That's certainly a positive direction."

You are missing the entire point of why I even got involved in this thread. tankmonkey voiced the opinion that a lot of the anti-IS sentiment here was caused by IS trolls. I am and have been saying that as of the last few months, there have been no IS trolls to account for the still prevailing (although slowly decaying) anti-IS attitudes. Stravis cited an IS troll post that was made recently, and I countered to show that the attitude existed before the that post.

***

My original argument, if you can read further up than the post just previous, is that IS trolls do not account for the prevailing anti-IS sentiment. There has been no IS trolls to justify the posts that I cited. Sure, ronin trolled just now. Perhaps my comment that there is no trolling at all was a bit hasty. But you are making a peripheral remark the main point. Care to argue against my main point?

Yes. Because if you were actually a newbie interested in the CL, you would have posted a question concerning the CL by now in the General forum. Your posts have been exclusively in the Racing forum, and only in response to IS people. You seem more interested in responding to IS people than talking about the CL. And as everybody knows, a person who keeps talking about his supposed neutrality is in fact, not neutral.

Don't ask me why you would hide. Only you'd know. But a "neutral" person certainly would not insert himself/herself in an argument that has no bearing to him/her. I might watch a flame-war between musclecar people and Honda people, but I wouldn't take sides if I was actually neutral.

Now there's a rock-solid piece of observation and logic.

***

Had you actually bothered to read those citations and compare those with a search for "IS300", you might have seen that these comprise about only 1/10th the hits. Sure, some of those threads did debate the merits of the IS300, but they do not justify flippant inflammatories along the lines of "the IS300 is an overpriced Corolla". The citations merely point to those inflammatories, and I completely ignored any assertions of IS300 inferiority. Otherwise, the list would take about a page.

No, smart guy. Figure out what that list was in response to. As I expressed to you once, the existent anti-IS attitude was not caused by IS trolls. Stravis cited a recent troll message, and I was proving that it does not account for the anti-IS attitude that existed prior to that. Note the point-in-sarcasm that went with that list:

"And that explains all the derogatory remarks that the CL-S board has leveled at the IS300 previous to that, sure."

Let's see, I've been here a few months and how many times have I argued in defense of the IS? It's not like I missed all those cutting remarks and just found those yesterday, ya know.

Your failure to read beyond what's placed in your lap is somewhat amazing:

"For whatever reason, there's still a lot of sniping at the IS300. That's not for anybody to do anything about, since this is, after all, a CL board."

If you weren't so dense as to miss the point again, you might see that I have not cared for what is being said about the IS. Note that I haven't responded to any of those assertions about any of the IS's perceived inferiorities. (If I had cared to voice my disagreement, the general board would be a hell of a lot livelier, actually.) I do object vehemently, however, to you or anybody saying that IS owners have brought the anti-IS attitude here upon themselves with trolling. If you can't tell the difference between my objecting to the outright lie in the cause of the present state, and supposed paranoia about the debatable merits of dissimilar cars, then you ought to brush up on your reading comprehension.

------------------
051/LP/SR/LD/HH

 

First the world doesn't revolve around you and whatever strange rules you may create. Want to know why I'm a new user? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I only discovered this site recently. I am a newbie to this site, but not a newbie to the CL. I don't need to ask simple questions about the car because I've already done my homework. If I feel the need to post in the other areas of this site then I will do it when I feel like it. I certain will not be posting because you say I have to. In terms of being neutral, as I stated in the thread:

http://www.acura-cl.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000002-2.html

"The fact that I don't have a CL-S make my previous post even more valid. There isn't any opinionated emotions clouding my comparison that might come from owning one of the cars in question.
I am however looking for a new car in the near future. I though since this discussion was about both the CL-S and the IS300 I would state some of the information I found from comparing both cars. If comparing two cars is "hating" then car magazines must be the most hateful publications of all. There is nothing wrong with comparing cars especially if your interested to buy a new one like myself."

 

why do you insist on calling me a liar when all I've done is express my opinion? can my opinion be wrong? certainly, but being wrong does not make me a liar. maybe you're the one in need of help with reading comprehension and/or vocabulary. try looking up the definition of "opinion" sometime.

as far as your alleged paranoia is concerned, hey, you're the one taking *obviously* light-hearted statements too seriously. hence the punctuating the last sentence of my previous post.

in addition, you've actually accused someone of changing their handles for the sake of participating in this discussion. geez, how paranoid is that?

 

Dtew,

In my opinion you are worse than a troll. Why? Becuase you come on to this site and try to police our emotions for our cars. The only time there have been bashing of the IS was a long while ago when there was a lot of flaming back and forth. But I do believe that the most misinformed bashers came from the IS board. Why don't you just stop trying to tell us how we should feel and add useful information that I know and have seen that you are capable of.

 

Hmmm. Writing form over function. Please disregard the "lie" part. But I still "object vehemently" to that particular interpretation of the chonology of events.

It happens way too often when trolls attack the IS300 board. Despite their automotive inclinations, it's often very hard to trace back to the regular user on their respective boards. It may seem paranoid to you, but anything else would be pure naivete if you've experienced the scale of trolling that we have.

***

You seem to be unable to read. I'll try once more.

I don't respond to posts claiming the IS300 is inferior or whatever. That is your opinion, and it is what I would expect from owners of a competitive car at a similar price point. I involve myself when I perceive people to be attempting to cause a flame-war. My opinion is that as long as anybody else can take it upon themselves to try to disrupt the peace of these two forums, I can take it upon myself to counter that attempt.

As I've made it clear to you several times, you dared people for flames:

...which is what set your comment apart form everything else said about the IS300, which I would normally disregard.

I am involved here because tankmonkey was expressing a viewpoint of cause-and-effect that I disagree with a passion. I never once thought that he/she was trying to start a flame-war, although I had to voice my disagreement. It has nothing to do with what he/she feels about the IS.

And even in the midst of this, I do try to contribute to the forum. But do remember that I do not own a CL, and therefore cannot offer any insight on specific problems. As of late, there hasn't been many general automotive thread that I could add to.

------------------
051/LP/SR/LD/HH

 

Let's see...

1. You basically TROLL our board for any derogatory remarks about the IS. Is that not a fact?
2. This is a CL forum and America and yet we are not allowed to express our opinions on the IS?
3. Have there been any current flame wars? Wait, sorry. There has been no flame wars because of you the almighty keeper of the peace.

Like I said we love our cars we don't give a damn about the IS, unless an IS want to front... then it's on. But wait, that would happen with any other makes or types. As to my comments about trolls flame away... you are the one that took it and ran away with it. I posted my opinions and knew that any remarks about your beloved IS would be so insulting to your already fragile ego that you would attempt to defend it. There is no need to defend it. You will never be able to dissuade me from my opinions... you are not God. You in a word.... suck.

 

You're an idiot. My lesson learned of the day is to cease trying to reason with you.

------------------
051/LP/SR/LD/HH

 

IS300 TROLLER... go away.

 

Holy shit, what was the point here? This was a racing forum, wasn't it?

dtew, you've trivialized this to insignificance. You don't particularly care that people malign the IS, but you do care that some attribute the maligning to some IS trollers? You can't refute opinions and that's all either issue is. Anyways, give it up, its minutae now.

BTW, the only thing that has made this thread interesting is tankmonkey's PC descriptions of the IS (performance challenged, differently sized, hilarious).

UL

 

no shit, i come here looking for some racing stories and end up getting Debate 101.

these alleged 'trollers' give the phrase 'one man can make a difference' a bad rep. wish some ppl would just let things go. ppl have a right to an opinion, and so do you, can't we stop being hypocrites and be content? (thats my opinion so no need to prove my point and start bashing me )

 

Look on the bright side... Better an is troller than a Mustang troller. Those guys are nuts. Bat facial hair, cheap tatoos, beer guts the likes of which I have never seen. The pictures they posted of them selfes... Look at the backgrounds. Even their houses are messes.

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http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...698&a=11616550
Red 3.2 CL-S.
"Life is too short not to be Italian." -Paul Sorvino

 

Everyone loves to argue with a troll =)

------------------
'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
www.BMWExperience.com

'02 TL-S Soon!

 

Fellas, its time to shut the f*$% up.

My rhetoric and vocabulary has increased from your posts, thanks. You are not trolls anymore, but tools. Heated discussion of emotion and biases, big bunch of tools.

How about you do us all a favor here at the fun-loving CL board and go f*$% yourselves

Have a nice day!

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Hollywood is back, and so is...

Miss "Jackie Black" Black on Black 2001 CLS
Tint | airbox gutted - waiting for AEM CAI| resonator replaced by straightpipe | 12" JL Audio sub
PIAA 19170s | spoiler


14.6185 at 96.09mph 1/4 mile - Take that Car&Driver!!

 

great story!

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2001 CL-S
Black/Black
Moonroof Visor
Black Wood Dash Kit
Currently on TL rims with Nokian Winter Tires
My Bitch