civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I can't open the links because Comcast sucks balls and keeps throttling my speeds, but the rust preventative coating will most likely scrub off the first time you hit the brakes.

I can't open the link for the eBay either but if the lines are less then $110 shipped its a good deal.

And I love my Red stuff pads. People say the dust alot, but Im not seeing it. They bite hard though.

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

Yea i know the rust preventative stuff will come off the contact area but the whole rotor is covered. The goodridge lines are 120 shipped do you have a better deal?

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

http://www.ajusa.com/details/Russell...rake+Line+Kit&

Use promocode "TOUCHDOWN" and you'll get another $10 off, so $98 shipped. Russell lines are the same quality, and Im running them. Theyve been in the business for awhile and they do alot of stainless steel line work.

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

k thnx ill look into those. btw your new avatar is disturbing i liked all the others better

CL-S progression 01

iTrader: (2)

get XLR8 stainless steel lines... they look like they have the BEST coating on them to prevent rusting. and they are incognito BLACK

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

ordered the ebc ultimax rotors. Got the fronts for 152 shipped pretty good deal. Bought redstuff pads also. Now i just have the lines left to buy.

01RedCLS

Where'd you get them for that price - eBay?

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

yes

01RedCLS

Cool, I was just pricing these and that was the cheapest I saw them. Keep us updated in this thread with the install and your opinion after a few thousand miles! If I go this route, I'll prob be doing in late March/early-mid April or so.

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

I prob wont install mine till march also.

01RedCLS

Also, let us know if you get flack for trying to return the CL cores!

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

I got my ebc ultimax rotors in. The fronts i ordered are vented style rotors. The rears are solid type. Is this normal to have vented in front and solid in the back or did I order the wrong ones? The part numbers seem to match what the online site lists for our cars.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Yea. The rears are always solid.

Misha322

So guys,

I did the Legend LS swap on my TL and have a bit of an issue. Car keeps pulling to the right. I wen to get alignment done and was told that the right caliper is getting stuck in closed position. They did not take it apart, but that is their diagnoses. Also, on the left caliper I could not get the bleeder valve to lock and not leek, had to use a bolt.

I purchased the calipers from RockAuto, Raybestos FRC10627/8, for the '95 Legend LS Coup. I called to get them exchanged and am getting crap back. They wanted to talk to the shop, then wanted to know what car I am installing it on. I told them '95 Legend LS. They wanted VIN number. I gave them my friends VIN, he has 4dr '95 Legend LS. Well, now they are saying the calipers I purchased are for a Coup, not 4dr and told me Raybestos will not warranty them.

I told them the calipers are the same on the two cars, but without such confirmation I can't get a swap. Can any one confirm the two are the same? Any other suggestions?

PAYMEE

iTrader: (1)

just found my next mod...thanks boys...
i recently swapped all my rotors and pads... i went with EBC slotted and dimpled rotors with the zinc coating and posi-quiet ceramic pads..
love the new setup but hate the way the old calipers look...this should look nice when its all said and done
one problem what do i do about the rears??

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Raise hell. Theyre giving you the runaround for subpar parts.

Misha322

Just spoke to Acura dealer parts department, was told 2dr and 4dr have different part numbers....... Not sure how to proceed now. They obviously fit, by left works fine, but without showing them same part numbers I don't see how I can win the argument.

PAYMEE

iTrader: (1)

does any one know what the part numbers are for the 95 ls or gs front calipers? left and right? i see alot on ebay but not sure which ones to get...

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

I think the part number changes depending on who remanufactured the calipers. Mine are Duralast and the box's have numbers c9208 and c9209. I just went to autozone and had them look up the legend gs calipers. They didnt have any options for coupe only sedan so I just made sure they were dual piston ones. They had ones for the 94 ls coupe but those are single piston. Both calipers have the number 17cl15vn on the top and are nissin brand. Dunno if this helps.

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

hmm that sounds like a shitty situation. This is a reason it might be better to order from your local store. Easier to return.

Misha322

You are correct. Was my first time ordering from RockAuto, did not anticipate problems with something that was Rebuilt. Ordered from RockAuto after with no problems, but all were new parts. Just goes to show you that new is always better, if you can afford and find new.

PAYMEE

iTrader: (1)

it should thanks for the info..

PAYMEE

iTrader: (1)

are these them?? ebay
93 94 95 LEGEND L. CALIPER FRONT SDN 4 DR GS

PAYMEE

iTrader: (1)

i came across this while searching for the legend calipers...apparently the 17cl15vn is the stock number nissin caliper for all 11.1 honda/acura rotors i thought it was very interesting...long but good..don't really get the part with the bleeding and which side they should be on...this guy is called the brake expert on another site..don't wanna post the link cause the mods might take it away...can anyone clarify...

Let's talk brakes - ode to the 17CL15VN caliper« » 12:55 AM 12/10/2008 Reply Edit

Well I know, humbly, I do not have an ITR, and I thank you for graciously letting me bask in the presence of the type-R gurus.

So, I'm obsessed with brakes. Lets talk about your brakes:
ITR - 11.1" front ventilated disc, clamped by the almighty 17CL15VN.
Of all the brake setups I've run, I've found this to be incredibly effective courtesy of its fantastic caliper rigidity, zinc dichromate coating, and very well engineered pad.
As you all know, the 17CL15VN caliper first appeared in the US on the 1991 Acura Legend. Its the same as it is for the Type-R but with the bleeders mounted on the opposite side because of the mounting location. The caliper was non-directional so could be swapped left to right to mount on Integras. This caliper featured a fantastic pad. The ITR/Legend pad is awesome. Super stiff backing plate, big in size, and gives that great shape to give a large sweeping area and an outline that uses leading and trailing obtuse angles to reduce vibration and give decent radial heat distribution.
Its bracket, stamped 23T, used a very beastly design with retainer clips and really sturdy pins. The bolts for them are a grade 8 14mm flange bolt. I'm so glad Honda uses these big ass Flange bolts all the time. Working with domestic cars every so often, I realize how spoiled I am to have a Honda. Even old and seized, our bolts can be broken loose with some muscle, but try breaking loose an undersized 3/8" bolt on a ford expedition and you'll figure out why your lucky to have a Honda, their design for bolts suck and strip too easily. The bracket is thick enough to allow it to be milled for fitting Type-R brakes on Integras and Civics as I have done many times.
The 17CL15VN caliper got a revision in the early 2000s. As I first saw on an 06 Accord, the 17Cl15VN calipers it had were different. It now took the RL/CL pad, where its like the ITR pad, but the lower shoulders are wider, giving about 10-15% more surface area. The bracket is the same but the retainer clips now are springs. The caliper was modified where it no longer took an overhead pad spring, and the whole body was lightened a bit. The calipers are now directional - the piston is NOT centered between the mounting holes. The reason for the legend GS and NSX using unequal pistons with two is to give a more even pad contact. If the pistons are the same, the leading piston seems to push more, giving uneven pad contact. If you've ever seen an RX7 4 piston caliper, the pads have torrential pad wear. So the NSX and Legend 2 piston calipers have smaller leading pistons to account for this. The same theory was applied on the new 17CL15VN caliper, moving the piston toward the trailing edge of the pad to increase pressure on that side and reduce it on the leading side. I think its great how even though I've never had uneven pad wear on these pads, Honda is still improving where many others have said "good enough", and the old 17CL15VN calipers were awesome to begin with!
I've dealt with many cars. I've done lots of brake jobs on a lot of makes of cars, and I'm very convinced that looking at stopping power, build quality, design, and all else considered, the Type-R caliper remains today as one of the best calipers ever fitted to any car anywhere. Its just fantastic, even looking at modern car's brakes, you can actaully tell sometimes by looking at the shape of the brake which cars use a similar design, but the Type-R caliper's real key is in the effeciency of Nissin's engineering. That pad is just so big, especially for a car as compact as the Type-R. Netting a stopping distance of 107 feet from 60 is even now impressive for modern cars. For reference, the Viper does it in about 105 feet, but look at the width of its tires and the fact that the rotors are SO much bigger and the whole system is over twice the weight, even with its aluminum brembo calipers.
Working with so many different brake setups on my Civic, I can really appreciate how well designed the 17CL15VN is. Now I'm running Porsche calipers/pads and 2 piece 12" rotors that are curved vane. But I did run the ITR brakes before, and I can honestly say, you can get the same stopping from them, and it did give a much better brake feel. You can feel that solid iron caliper clamping. Sure I have a 5lb caliper thats aluminum, but the pad design on the 986 caliper doesnt compare. Of all the modification I did to the ITR setup, I ran many sets of used pads, used rotors, even ran over an ITR caliper, my wheel scratching the slide pin of one of em on the middle. That particular caliper ran on my car for well over 6 months, worry free. I never had vibration on the road, never had any noise, and always had a solid pedal feel, from the rusty pads I got at the junkyard to the AEM and Axxis pads I ran - shims weren't even needed as these never made noise. Because of the pad design and the sturdyness of the iron, you can really truly beat the ever living shit out of these brakes and they'll survive just fine. I've seen people run their pads down to the backing plates on tracked ITRs, but the brakes still didn't vibrate, whereas my Porsche brakes are like little girls, needing to be bedded in ever so slowly to ensure a long, vibration free life, and yes, I've compensated for that fact that I'm running a hard metal rotor (opposed to german soft metal ones). So, to all of you, compared to all the car's youve driven, how do you think the ITR brakes stack up?

he goes on too compare the calipers:

Okay, comparison on the three brake setups:

ITR caliper
NSX caliper
Legend GS caliper
Spoon twinblock caliper
As you know, they all take the exact same pad, same shape, same part number, pads are interchangable. Each of these three setups uses an 11.1" disc.
The ITR caliper uses a 23mm rotor and gives a fantastic clamping force. The spoon twinblock caliper was designed as a straight bolt on replacement, and for those with wide enough wheels and ITRs (or Legends or 97+ Preludes and a few more...) it is a straight bolt on replacement. Its benefit of course...is the reduction of unsprung weight in front of the axle on the steering knuckle. The Spoon caliper is just under 5lbs whereas the stock ITR caliper is about 12lbs. Remember too that a pair of new ITR sized pads are just a hair over 1lb per pad, meaning 2lbs per caliper. I've personally never had the opportunity to drive on a car with spoon calipers, so I can't comment on how the pedal feels, but I can say, that having gone from the 97+ NSX caliper to a Porsche 911 caliper of half the weight (over the same rotor) that you DO notice that large chunk of unsprung weight missing from the car. Immediatly backing out my driveway, I found it just a bit easier to turn the wheel, and I wasn't actively paying attention for it, but you really can tell.
The Legend GS caliper has a few benefits over the single piston ITR/Legend caliper. The Legend GS was meant for a car with 28mm rotors, so the throat was extended an extra 5mm to allow for the thicker, heavier rotor for the 6 speed, 200hp beast. The caliper design over the ITR caliper has two real benefits. One is of course that it has two pistons, smaller leading than trailing, and this ensures the best lateral pad wear. Also the increased surface area of the contact between the back pad and piston, being two insted of one that only touches part of the pad, is that it can help pull heat to the back of the caliper away from the pad, helping cool the brakes a bit better. The other benefit, less known, is that despite having two pistons insted of one, the legend GS caliper body is actually lighter than the single piston version.
The NSX caliper has the same benefits and basic design improvement as the Legend GS caliper. Its got two pistons, and its throat is longer by 5mm as the NSX also has 28mm thick front rotors. You may be wondering why a luxury car and supercar have the same front brakes, but remember than the NSX was mid engined, so the front brakes do less proportional work - the NSX has big, ventilated rear brakes to help out.
The NSX caliper has slightly smaller front pistons than the Legend GS as it was much more heavily tweaked from the factory for absolute perfect braking balance suited for a hand-built supercar. Its other obvious benefit is that the caliper body has a bunch of raised lines on it and the NSX letters protruding. These are typically known as heat vanes and increase surface area of the caliper body, allowing for better cooling through convection.
The NSX, Legend GS, and ITR caliper bodies are all interchangable, and the Legend GS and NSX use the same 28T caliper bracket. The 91-96 NSXs all took this but the Zanardi editions and 97+ NSXs all have slightly different caliper bodies which are still interchangable, but the bracket is different. If you wanted to loose some unsprung weight on an ITR caliper bracket, you can simply remove the single piston caliper and bolt on the NSX or Legend GS caliper, which are both less by about half a pound or so. With the Legend GS calipers, bleeding must be done with the caliper pivoted upward since its bleeder will point downward when running, and since the pistons are uneven, the caliper must be bolted on its respective side. The NSX caliper bleeders would point up, so no change is needed on Hondas with the calipers mounted in front of the axle. On Hondas with the calipers mounted behind the axle, you would need to bleed the NSX calipers disconnected and Legend GS calipers normally if you were putting these brakes on a car like an 01+ Civic, S2000, or RSX. Because the NSX and Legend GS took thicker calipers, the pistons will be protruding 5mm out farther than stock if you use the 23mm ITR rotors. If you are going to be track racing and getting your rotors extremely hot, what you can do is to actually use the Legend GS rotor and the 28T bracket with either the NSX or Legend GS caliper body. The rotors are about 3lbs heavier per side. If your brakes aren't going to get that hot to make use of the rotors, and you want the less weight, you can stick with the stock rotors and 23T stock brackets. To compensate for the NSX or Legend GS pistons protruding 5mm more than stock, you can either make some piston inserts in the shape of a plunger than stick to the pistons to account for this added area. What I did was take a completely dead pad (which is just the backing plate essentially) and use some anti-vibration compound to sort of temporarily 'glue' it to the back of the inner pad to make up for the extra piston travel. Please note that adding this extra weight of about half a pound will pretty much make up for the weight lost by switching to the GS or NSX caliper bodies, so make sure your doing the upgrade for heat dissipation reasons, as they do help.

Blazin Si

Has anyone compared the price between the NSX and Legend GS calipers from a local parts store like AutoZone?

SPoolinspOON

iTrader: (5)

swaping side will make the bleeders on top. The Legend calipers are going to be cheaper then the NSX. NSX piston size is also a bit smaller then legend.

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

You cant find the nsx anymore. I tried all the online and local stores. Even if you can find them the nsx are pricey.

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

Got all my parts in ready to install. I might wait till spring tho since the roads are coated in salt. I went with legend calipers, ebc ultimax rotors, red stuff pads, and xlr8 brake lines. 200 for the calipers, 52 each if you can return cores, 310 for the rotors, 140 for pads and 100 for lines.

Misha322

As the "expert" on brakes stated, in contradiction to what everyone else has been saying on AcuraZine, the Legend calipers have to be mounted on their respective sides. The different size pistons apparently make a difference according to him. I personally have them reversed. Perhaps there is a long term effect that needs to be considered, if he is an expert that is.

97BlackAckCL

iTrader: (6)

A guy in the 1st gen forum did the nsx swap a few years ago, I had looked into the prices, but couldn't find the nsx ones for less than 250 or so for a set, I ended up getting the legend calipers for like 75 total

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

it says for the 17cl15vn caliper that after the year 2000 it is directional. The ones i have are 95 so dsnt that mean its only the 2000 or beyond ones?\

"The 17CL15VN caliper got a revision in the early 2000s" "The calipers are now directional - the piston is NOT centered between the mounting holes. "

Not sure if thats what this means or not.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

There are no 2000 Legends (aside from the Daewoo branded versions in Asia).

The way I am reading it is Honda made them non-directional and then revised them sometime between 2000-2004. Im sure if you look the original 1995 part number you'll see that it was superceeded by another a new one.

Misha322

Yes, according to this comment it can be swapped left to right. But another bit of info, he mentioned that Type-R has bleeders on opposite side. So if we go with Type-R, we then potentially don't have to do the left to right swap? Or am I reading something wrong? Also, from what I understand the caliper is the same on 91's till the 2000's. So why are we all getting the 95's and why Legends?

Misha322

Based on this, I don't understand how are these calipers non-directional. From his statement, the two pistons are of a different diameter (smaller front, larger rear) to distribute the pressure more evenly, as the back part of the caliper/pad sees more force.

From my conclusion, his argument on the the caliper being non-directional is due to the two pistons being centered between the two bolts. The new caliper after 2000 has the two pistons off-set to the rear of the caliper to alleviate some more stress off the leading piston.

But technically the fact the the two pistons are of a different diameter and the larger caliper is meant to carry the bulk of the pressure tells me they are directional, the fact that the new caliper the the pistons off-set to the rear just makes them that much more directional.

Misha322

So I found another post by the BrakeExpert on the:
Honda-Tach -> Tach -> the brake thread

"Legend calipers ARE similar to the Prelude/Integra-R/Civic-R calipers, though since the Legend had the caliper on the back, swap them left to right to keep the bleeder pointing up during bleeding. Legend GS calipers must be mounted on a Civic knuckle with the bleeders pointing DOWN because the calipers are directional (two unequal sized pistons)."

01tl4tl

on the TL and CL, gen2 99-03, you MUST install the 95 Legend calipers opposite their original use.
Left goes on right, right on left
The very small- we are talking less than 3-4 MM -differance in the size of each piston-- is of little importance for our use of them. There is not the braking loads the 2 door coupe was expected to generate in competition- where those cars were made to have some showroom stock or Improved Touring class fun on the racetrack, and caliper was mounted on the back side of strut with torque forces in mind

If it were a huge size differance that would matter-- but this is so close that visually its difficult to spot

The addition of a third `middle outer finger` on the Legend caliper stabilizes the outer pad and the dual pistons generate more even force across the width of the inner pad

No one in their right mind tries to bleed the calipers with the bleeder on the bottem, twisting it while off the car or whatever, just install them this way and dont worry- many of us doing it for years... and CL crowd is who started it!

Do prefill and prebleed the new calipers as much as possible- off the car

Use the 95 LS-C because it has the least size differance, each year and model had differances, these are the best I could work out with help of other ziner experts and actual and factory measurements

The parts store is HAPPY to get CL/TL calipers back!!- they can easily rebuild and resell those to someone else with a TL/CL,
while legend caliper customers are few and far between~ not many of them on the road.
Counter staff cant tell anything except its a caliper core,,,, get the old fluid out,,they appreciate that!
01tl4tl gen2 TL brake guru

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Thankyou kind sir!

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

So the 95 legend gs sedan calipers have a bigger difference in piston size than the 95 ls coupe?

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

I just measured mine and the piston size difference seems to be right around 4mm so it seems the same to me.

Blazin Si

Damn, that kinda sucks. I hate to admit it, but I wanted the NSX bling.

Wow, $75 sounds like a killer price. The prices I've come across are closer to $100 a piece without a core deposit.