619rcr

Thefireball, are you running a B series TB and P2R IACV relocation bracket?

If so, I would remove it and run the stock setup just to rule it out as a possibility. I could never get it to run right even with larger fittings on the adapter and a fat hose running straight from the manifold to the IACV. It's flawed in my opinion.

NVM, it seems you're running a larger manifold altogether. Having mods makes it even harder to diag.

Thefireball

I'll just pull one off of a junk car. Plenty to pull from. I appreciate the link though.

I had gotten it to work on the J32 just fine.


Test drove the car today. It was idling normal. Flushed and topped off the coolant. Driving around the neighborhood, it drove fine. Then the CEL and VSA light came on. Still drove fine though, except when I gave it some gas. I was already in limp mode, but I punch the throttle a bit from 2nd to 3rd, and getting into the higher RPMs, it felt like it misfired a little bit. Other than that, it drove fine, until I got back to my home and parked, where it began to knock. I suspect the knock sensor plug got pulled again. I really need to replace that plug.
However, I have noticed that this engine backfires a lot more than my J32 did. The J32 would always backfire upon shifting gears, but this J35 backfires a little bit at idle, and backfires a lot upon revving/acceleration. It has me worried that it could be something bigger. Could valves being out of spec cause this, or is this just normal for a frankenstein monster? I'm still not sure if I adjusted the valves correctly. They are pretty noisy, tappy wise.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

What, about the valve adjustment process, are you concerned about that makes you think they are not adjusted correctly?

In addition, just to clarify. The knock, heard on your video, reappears when the knock sensor connector dislodges? When that sensor is reconnected, the knock goes away.

Thefireball

Just the fact that it was my first time actually doing it. I made sure it was tight on the higher end, and loose and the lower end of the feeler gauge. I just don't know how easily the feeler is supposed to be moving under the valve. They're within spec, no doubt, but I'm wondering if I left them slightly too loose. How much give, slide, tension should there be on bigger portion of the feeler gauge? Should it be able to move at all?

And yes, the knocking goes away once the knock sensor is plugged in. But the clip that holds it in place on the actual sensor itself broke off. It either broke during the swap, or it was already broken on the J35 motor. The knocking is actually just pre detonation.
​​​​​

zeta

iTrader: (1)

You may have watched this video already; but, EricTheCarGuy does a pretty good job of going through the 'what to feel', as far as drag on the feeler gauge, that you mention starting at 17:20. ;dunno:
I'm going to budget for one of those valve adjustment tools. It appears to make the job a lot easier.

Thefireball

I watched his other video of him doing a valve adjustment on a J series. I might just give the valve lash another check when replacing the knock sensor wire. They are really noisy, so I probably have them slightly too loose. Better than being too tight though.
Still though, not sure what's up with the back firing.

atrainn

Hey buddy. Your timing belt skipped time a tooth or two. When you verify your timing marks use indent on the teeth of the cam pulley, not the numbers. Verify the crank key is on arrow and both cam marks are dead on. Did you turn the crank around 5 times by rachet to take up tension on the timing belt before starting it? I would verify your valves again too. a tooth or 2 out of time will produce your symptoms, and so will a sticking valve. if you have heads off again you can verify turning the17mm cam gear bolt check the valves open, close and seat properly.

Thefireball

I will check the timing marks again soon. I've had the timing off before, and it sounded like a Harley motorcycle before. But I did turn it over by hand multiple times, and everything was aligned properly. It could have skipped a tooth, due to not having camshaft seals and oil being thrown everywhere inside the timing covers. Though, it wasn't as big of a mess as I had thought it would have been.
But which symptoms are you saying are related to bad timing? The backfiring, or the pre detonation?

atrainn

You may have solved you're problem. I got that error , checked it and found caked sludge over sensor, cleaned and back to normal. Your going to be J series pro no doubt. Also do you have old block? Swap sensors in if you do. Pic of harness ground to check for and pic of move hood shock nipple to pre thread spot, disconnect passenger shock when working on it. Just wish you the best.

Thefireball

I think I know which plug you're mentioning. It's some weird slide on plug with a like a black rubber shroud around it, right? The rubber shroud is torn up on mine. I could probably do with swapping it out with a different one. Looks like more soldering is in my future.
The old block has been tossed already. I was considering keeping it, but I had no where to store it. I will soon though, so maybe I'll pull another motor and do some actual work on it. It'd be nice to have a backup motor in case mine blows, or my girlfriend's blows and either of us need a replacement.
​​​​​​

atrainn

I saw in your video you have the sensor ground grounded. You'll see mine has a quick disconnect but I'm still using original ground clip to plug onto. I had low voltage crank sensor code and whilst checking the ground found the end of the wire had gone hard and brittle. I clipped and striped the wire back to where it was flexible again crimped blue plug on . before I did that it also missed a little and bubbled at idle. problem solved.
Intake valve clearance is .008 up to .009 in.
Exhaust is .011 up to.013 in.
I have 400k on my j, I rarely have to wrench on it. I beat it every day without regard and you'll need over 425hp to walk on me. It's a solid but finicky engine. Once you get it right your done. Crank sensor is $75 at AutoZone. If it ain't your fix get your $ back . And when checking spark always use coil on plug to block .

Thefireball

What kind of a setup do you have that requires 425HP to beat you?

atrainn

Haha lol. Let's get you going then we'll talk about my set up. Point is you shouldn't be having this much trouble. J a very reliable engine.

Thefireball

I just got done replacing the knock sensor wire and IACV, and the motor is still knocking, or pre detonating. I don't know what gives. The pre detonation will sometimes switch cylinders when ever I remove the coil pack that's knocking. Right now, the knocking is sticking to cylinder 6. However, no I'm getting power surging again, and misfiring. I'm kind of scared that a valve may have been bent now.
I'm beginning to think this motor is just a dud. I have no clue what could be causing this motor to act up like this.

Thefireball

I just checked the coil pack in cylinder 4, and it didn't make a difference in how the motor was acting. I believe it is misfiring from that cylinder, and I just made sure that the spark plug IS making a spark. I'm wondering if the engine is out of time, a valve is bent, or the valve lash needs to be readjusted. Still, the knocking is in cylinder 6.

Thefireball

Checked the tensioner & pulley for the timing belt today. Neither are the cause of the noise. I verified both by hand, and running the motor for a second. Belt is nice and tight.
I then decided to redo my valve adjustment, opting to go a bit tighter. The thicker portions of the gauge, .013 for exhaust and .009 for intake, were able to slip right in and had little drag. So I figured they were too loose, on all of them. Well, now the motor runs like crap, so I guess they're too tight. This valve adjustment stuff if very finicky. The knocking was still present however.
I'm starting to think the knock is either one of two things:

​​​​​​1. A bearing is actually bad, meaning I will need to cut my exhaust to be able to remove the J pipe and inspect them
Or
2. I happened upon a forum for Odyssey's where someone was having a similar issue as me. They even replaced the knocked sensor. I wasn't able to hear a sound clip of their issue, but their fix was replacing the ECU. Their ECU was advancing the timing instead of retarding it, causing a spark knock.
I've already had to replace my ECU in this car once due to having a CEL that came back as a bad PCM. The car ran and drove fine. It didn't feel abnormal, but that CEL would just never go away. So I eventually just replaced it with a junkyard one and paying $100 for a locksmith to program it.

I'll be checking the bearings first, as the sound does seem like it's louder underneath, but I could just be crazy. It sounds loud both on top, and below. But once I cut that pipe, I'll need some one to weld it back for me, or put a flange in place. Whatever it takes to get her back on the road.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Could you temporarily wrap the J pipe cut with fiberglass header tape, or what ever it's called, and then place a band clamp?

Then once you get the car sorted or a new engine, weld it up.

Thefireball

That's definitely something I can do, lol. I want to get into welding stuff with the garage. The 27th couldn't come any sooner. I'll probably use a clamp like you linked until I can get everything to start welding things myself.
After listening to some videos, I'm starting to think that a bearing is bad, 100%. I listened to a video that was on a completely different motor, and it sounded just like it. My question is, can I simply just replace the one bearing, do I have to replace all of them, or do I need to go and replace any other parts while doing this?

Thefireball

It'll be some time until I can drop the oil pan and take a look at the bearings, but I did check the oil today. The dipstick looked clean and no signs of metal, until I wiped my fingers on it, and noticed a very small amount of gray stuff on my finger. I'm sure there's more in the pan. More than likely will have to be swapping motors and rebuild this one.
On the other hand, I wanted to figure out the other issue; the popping & crackling, or backfire as I previously called it.. I noticed before that it was happening more in the rear bank of cylinders. The rear bank is known for getting more hot than the front, and tends to be a little dirtier looking. I was wondering if my camshafts are in bad shape and needed to be replaced, or if the rear is just dirty and looks more worn, as it might be the issue. What do you guy's think? Are they still useable? The rear ones look a lot more worn than the fronts.

Rear:



Front:




Each pic is a different segment of the camshaft, not me turning them. Replacing them gives me the opportunity to upgrade to other camshafts as well.
​​​​​​

Thefireball

So, I recently worked on my car again, because I was tired of passing by it everyday and doing nothing. I made a video, because it helps to understand the issue when you can at least see & hear. It's hard to hear certain things, like the knock, just because of everything I've done on it that causes it to be so damn loud, but here you go:

Now, in case you don't want to watch a 7 minute video, I'll sum it up.
​​​- Other forums for Honda's, mainly the 4 bangers, have reported knocking noises from bad LMAs. Well what did I replace upon swapping out cams.. the LMAs. So I swapped back in the old design that came with the J35A3 originally.
- Replaced the knock sensor with the new one that I had put in my J32A2 previously. Upon doing this, I had found that the knock sensor I had put in was not tightened down. It was sitting loosely in it's threaded hole.
- I checked every rocker arm and shaft, everything looked fine, except for one intake shaft missing a guide pin. The bolts should be enough to hold it in place though.
- Redid my valve adjustment, this time making sure that the next size didn't go in, but the size under would.
- Making sure the head bolts were at the correct torque value. It was.
- Checked the oil, had a slight silver/grey color to it, but the rest of the oil looked clean. Wiped it, checked it again, and it was perfect.
The results: An engine that idled roughly at start, along with the knocking noise. I let it idle for a bit, no difference. I revved it, still the same. I rev it some more, and the knocking dissapeared, and it idles perfectly fine. The knocking is gone, but what remains is a slight tapping noise. A tapping noise that sounds like it's coming from the timing belt.. almost like it's the hydraulic tensioner or pulley.
I will be removing it, and inspecting it, and probably replacing it altogether considering I've compressed it like 10 times by now. At the same time, my battery is bad and will no longer hold a charge, so I need a new one to further test some things.
But, upon revving it in the driver's seat, there was some sick backfiring. My phone's mic really doesn't pick up on it, but to me, it was a very audible POP POP. A healthy pop, too; not a misfire pop. So that's cool at least.
​​​​​

zeta

iTrader: (1)

^
It sounds better!
When I listen to your video, all I can hear is kind of what sounds like your P/S pump making noise? Can't really hear any tapping or knocking.
Maybe run the engine without the P/S pump belt to rule it out?
That may help with hearing any suspected TB tensioner or pulley noise?

Thefireball

The power steering was making a whining noise that would come and go before the original motor blew. I had actually bought a whole set of new o rings to put into, but we'll.. you know what happened.
The knocking turned into a tapping, and you can hear it when I'm sitting in the car revving it. It's faint, but it's there. It's much more audible in person.
There was also the issue of after I got it to settle and idle correctly, that I went to rev it again, and then the RPMs would get so slow, that it sounded like it wanted to stall. I revved it a couple more times, and it corrected it self.
I'm not sure what that was about, but there's so many weird things happening.

Thefireball

WELP, it's official.
I went to go test it out the motor again. Started it, slight knocking noise, along with a shitty idle. Revved it like normal, because that's always fixed it, and it did. The idle settled and was normal. So I revved it a couple more times, and all was good.
Alright, so I thought I would go ahead and record the backfiring. I prop my phone up against something and have it facing my exhaust. Rev, pop pop; cool. Rev some more, pop pop. Rev a little higher, pop p-CLACKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAK
The awful noise of when my engine blew up came back. The sound of two gears grinding, along with a much, much worse knocking. The engine is officially dead. I can say with 100% confidence that the motor just threw a rod. I didn't let it run long after it happened. I don't know if the motor is even salvageable at this point.

Well, I was already planning on swapping in another motor, I'm glad the problem finally revealed itself though. Question is, should I post my stupidity on YouTube for all to shame me?

Thefireball

zeta

iTrader: (1)

^
So, is your final engine assessment that the rod issue was present at the start from the salvage yard MDX?

Thefireball

I'm not sure. It's hard to tell if it was there upon first starting the engine, when I didn't do the valve adjustment and it was misfiring like crazy. I think a combination of age, the misfiring, the shaking, pistons hitting valves, and my stupidity killed it.
I think it would have ran fine untouched and put into the car, but I don't think it would have held up long hitting redline often. I think it would have died within a year. So yes & no.

​​

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Do you have another local J35A3 in mind?

Thefireball

Well, I'm in a pickle.
I had posted that right after it had happen. My assumption was that the motor had thrown a rod, I mean, it sure sounded like it, right?
Well, I gotta stop rushing to conclusions because here's what really happened. I believe the tensioner to the timing belt officially gave up. I was about to go and check which piston had some play it, to figure out which cylinder failed. Right when I went to go crank the motor, I noticed the timing belt was loose. I think the tensioner was the issue, even though I had checked it multiple times, and watched it and the pulley with the motor running. The knocking did not sound or look like it was coming from it at all, but from the motor.
Could a thrown rod cause a loose timing belt? Like it's loose loose. Do I just scrap this motor and swap in another one, or would it be better to swap the heads, that's if the piston's heads are fine. I checked every spark plug, and they are good, except they are fouled a bit.
Now I have two broken cars, because the Lexus has had a power steering leak since I bought it, which sits right above the alternator, and it just killed that. I hate cars.
​​​​
It would seem I'm following in the same footsteps as 2ndgentl.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

In regards to the Lexus, maybe you can score a salvage yard P/S pump and alternator for the repair to get back on the road?
In regards to the CL-S, maybe consider another J35A3, take the old one out and go back to it later to figure out its issue?
The timing of one or both of the above, of course, depend on your current finances and available time / facilities to do the work.

Thefireball

I still think a rod bearing might be bad. It sounded way too much like a rod knock. But every piston was solid, and I even touched the tensioner while it was running and felt no knock from it. I can attempt to fix this one again, but I have a feeling it would just happen again. I won't really know until I disassemble it.
I'm really going to wait until I move now. I'll be buying an engine hoist and pulling it, and from there, checking the bearings. Right now, I'll be taking off the timing parts and see what went wrong. I would do a compression test but.. well that's currently not possible. So I'll probably just try to take a look at the valves with the runners off, and if they look alright, decide what to do from there. But more than likely, this is going to end with a new engine. But again, gotta move and get that garage first.
Will oddy cylinder heads work? I believe it's a J35A4. Or do they have the casted exhaust manifold? 01-02 MDXs are seemingly rare at junk yards, and Type CLs & TLs are also a little uncommon. None near me right now that I can go to.

whitetiger5

I know it's a very basic question, but you mentioned that you had not done this type of work before on your car...after installing everything, did you turn the engine over by hand with a breaker bar or long handled socket @ the crank to confirm there was no binding? I believe that's also listed at the end of the timing belt replacement procedure...

Thefireball

Yup, I sure did. Multiple times. Before starting the motor the last time, I had to crank each cylinder by hand with a ratchet a little past TDC so that it was on it's downstroke, that way I could push on it with an extension to see if there was any play in the bearings. All were solid; no movement at all.

And I've done timing belt work before. The part about me never doing stuff like this is pulling & swapping a motor, pulling cylinder heads off valve adjustments, etc. But timing belt and tensioner, yes.

whitetiger5

oh...understood. I've got a 2G TL, we don't see much of this stuff happening over there...mainly transmission/fuel system related problems.

Having a strong admiration for my 18+ year old car, I must say those pictures are pretty gritty/graphic, thanks for sharing!

Thefireball

There might be more J series gore coming once I stop being lazy and take a look at those valves. I'm kinda excited to see what under the timing belt cover looks like.

Ericthecarguy has also given me a small amount of hope about my valves being okay, but probably not.

Thefireball

So I was rewatching the video of when the motor shit the bed. I had realized that there was a lot of white smoke coming out of the exhaust, followed by the popping. I'm starting to wonder if I didn't install the heads & gasket correctly. I'm beginning to think the knocking is from the heads not being sealed down correctly and leaking into other cylinders. Could explain how erratic the knocking is and why it comes & goes, as well as all of the other odd issues like power surging.

Thefireball

So I went ahead and took a look at the intake valves. I had wanted to loosen the rocker arms so that they weren't pushing down on the valves, but I was in a hurry, so I left them be. The good news: from what I can see, none look bent at all. Of course, a bent valve could be so small that I can't see it. It doesn't help that they're being pushed down on, so it's difficult to see if they're seated properly. But from what I can see, they look fine visually.

Cylinder 1

Cylinder 2

Cylinder 3

Cylinder 4

Cylinder 5

Cylinder 6


I'll get to the exhaust valves later. I don't feel like messing with the headers right now. Those J pipe to header bolts are a pain in the ass to get to. I'll also update with pics of the valves when the rocker arms are loosened.
On another note, I checked the oil; more metal in it. I'm not starting this motor until I can look at those bearings, or at least see what's going on inside. But I'm starting to think the knocking is one of two things: A crank bearing, or the cylinder heads not being seated properly. Maybe it's both. Who knows.

Thefireball

4 posts in a row, going for a high score.

Made some discoveries tonight. Finally took a look at the timing components today, and to my amazement, the tensioner is not broken, nor is the pulley. This was what I found:



Thankfully, the bolt was not broken in the block. I checkrd it by screwing down the other bolt into that hole, and it went all the way in. I'm not even sure how the bolt came unscrewed with how much tension is being pushed down upon those bolts, but it just decided to come out.
Checking the timing, things were pretty off. The rear bank cam gear was a turned clockwise like 3 or 4 teeth ahead, while the the front cam gear was turned counter-clockwise about 3-5 teeth backwards. Though, there's no real way to know how much they were turned upon it happening and the motor running, visually, every intake valve looks fine. In fact, when I was cranking the motor by hand with the rocker valves loose (so all of the pressure was being pushed through the spark plug hole), each cylinder made a hearty woosh noise. They all sounded the same, and healthy. I've got a new compression tester coming to really verify things though.

Next thing that was checked was the oil again. Well, I stuck the dipstick down the hole a little bit further without the dipstick tube present, and this was what I found:

Lots of grey in the oil. The oil it self looks clean, and the greyish color is separated.

The next thing I discovered was that my coolant was low. I filled it up, and even ran the motor before to get all of the bubbles out and continue filling it up. There was no reason for it to be this low. I filled it up some more with what I had left, but it was still chugging it down. So I believe the popping in my exhaust is from coolant seeping into the cylinders.
A compression tester will help figure that out. When I finally move, I can even do a leak down. So that's something to look forward to. I also checked the timing belt tensioner, and well, it's fine. I can't even push it down at all. I'm just going to go ahead and replace it with the reusable P2R tensioner anyhow.

So what's next? I'll be doing a compression tester after reinstalling this tensioner (temporarily) to verify both that valves are good, and that the cylinder heads are seated correctly. If I end up pulling them off, I'll take them back to the machine shop to check over the heads. In the mean time, I'll be buying a pipe cutter and pulling off the oil pan.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

^
That's a shame about the tensioner bolt. Did the TB adjuster pulley, in the found position, where the tensioner rod contacts the metal, show signs of rubbing?
Maybe that was some of the source of knock?

Thefireball

I'll give it a check.

Thefireball

I think you maybe on to something. I tried to take a pic to the best of my ability, but before doing so, I did realize that the pulley was slightly loose. Not the wheel itself, but the arm that connects to the block. I could wiggle it back and forth. I think this was what I was hearing when the knocking would go away, and I kept saying I was hearing a tap. Here's two pics of me wiggling it back and forth to show how much of a gap there was:


It wasn't a huge gap, but wiggling it back and forth, it definitely made a tapping noise. Not enough for a knock, I still think that's internal, but definitely a tap. As for what you were requesting to see, here you are:


My guess is that I didn't tighten down the pulley enough, it rocked back and forth, causing enough movement in the tensioner bolt to just come out of place. At least the pulley bolt didn't come out. Would have been far more damage if the pulley had come loose inside the timing cover.

​​​​​​ Moving on, I did get to do some compression tests, and well.. they weren't good. Picture order is Cylinder 4, 5, 6, and then 1, 2, 3, just because the front bank is soo much easier to access.






As you can see, cylinders 3 & 4 are bad. I did have to redo my valve adjustment, so that could be affecting the numbers a bit. What I can say is that for sure, is that cylinder 4 has bent valves. I kept getting different results upon hand cranking the motor. I did every cylinder twice, and got the exact same results. Cylinder 3 was sort of different, but not far off from it's original number. 4 was a different story. I went slow & fast, cranking it about 6 times, and went from 30 PSI to eventually 60 PSI going fast.

I've officially signed the lease for the new place with a garage, and I won't be doing anything else to it until I can pull the motor. I'm going to be rebuilding it, but not at first. Considering the fact that I spent more on rebuilding cylinder heads than I did buying the motor, I'm just going to swap another motor in. I'm not sure what all I can do in terms of making this motor a 'monster', but I would like to find a vehicle to attempt a complete swap in. Maybe a Miata, or a Cappucino if I can get one imported.
Ah well, it's all a dream for now, but there's no sense in working on this motor any more until I can pull it. I'll be putting all my focus on getting the Lexus working until I can.