Shawn S

X 10

Shawn S

& page 9 OWNED !!!

spdy0001

Just cought this in your sig

Scrib

Before this gets locked, there are some GOOD tips mentioned in here. Thanks for everyone, including Tom and Zapata for their comments.

Shawn S

Notice MY change ???

Stock03CLS

This thread was fun, and now it's just sad. Let's sum up:

1) FACT: Driving your car causes wear....PERIOD. It doesn't matter if you double-clutch or just rev-match. SOMETHING is going to wear and you cannot stop it. Nothing you say here or pontificate elsewhere will change that fact.

2) FACT: Synchros were DESIGNED to help smooth out shifting, both up and down, by bringing the two shafts closer to each other's speed. Double-clutching to reduce wear on this part completely negates the benefit of having them in the first place.

3) FACT: Double-clutching is absolutely unnecessary and 100% optional in transmissions like ours and most other modern, stock street cars with manual transmissions. I'm not talking about racing trannys. I'm not talking about 1960's era cars. I'm not talking about 10-ton trucks. I'm talking about today and cars from the last 25 years (give or take).

So double-clutch if you want....if you think you're really saving something. Your car, your call. But please, it truly is a bunch of crap talking about the relative wear and tear of this or that when double-clutching vs. rev-matching. There are benefits and drawbacks to each method. Just drive your car the way you want and don't try to convince other people that you're right.

Seriously, Zapata, you might want to at least acknowledge the experience of people who have been driving stick for 10, 15, 20 years or more without resorting to insults. Only a suggestion...the rest is up to you.

Oh, and IBTL.

joeandcarol2

I second this last post. I have been driving manuals for 40 years. Never double clutched once. Never wore our one synchro. This is for seven manual cars. Just stick in the damn clutch, change gears, give a little bit on the gas (how much is something you learn by doing until its intuitive) and let out the damn clutch.
Oh and I also downshift from 4th to 2nd on city street right turns. Nothing to it.

Zapata

Heh, funny....i never started ANY of the insult hurling. Perhaps you want to updated your post? You can thank joeandcarol2, spdy0001, tom2 and all the other two year olds changing their sigs for taking this post completely away from what the original topic was and still is.

I presented an opinion about how to downshift correctly. An opinion. I never said it was the correct way or the only way, JUST ONE WAY.

AtlCl

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Titan and Zapata, you guys are just not listening to logic.

1) If the revs are matched perfectly, there is no wear on the syncros and shift is perfectly smooth.
2) There is no way pressing a pedal twice is faster than pressing it once.
3) Throw out bearings will wear out quicker than syncros

By the way, I went out during lunch and drove my car again and realized that blipping the throttle actually occurs as my hand is shifting to the other gear. As soon as I press the clutch, my hand starts moving the shifter into the other gear and in that split second I blip the throttle before the gear is actually selected. At no time during this operation do I slow down. How this could be done faster by pressing the clutch twice and stopping in neutral is beyond me.

But, you guys are entitled to your opinion and can shift however it pleases you. Just realize that the majority of people disagree with you.

also,

runnerX

wow... nice thread, the longest I've ever seen..

Has the war ended yet? If yes, here we go again...

I do occasionally use double clutch and here are the reasons:

1) smooth acceleration... (my wife would yell at me if I jerk the car)

2) preserve the life my synchros.. (looks like I will be driving this car for a long while since just bought a single home in Silicon Valley and planning to buy a Porsche for the wife)

3) safer cornering... I tend to jerk the car when not double clutching. I think stability of the car is very important during high speed cornering, especially with those stock tires that lose grip so easy.. yeah i am a bad driver.. I can release the clutch slowly to eliminate jerking, but does not that also eliminate the time advantage over double clutching? If double clutch correctly, you can floor the gas pedal without causing any jerk, that is the car will pick up full throttle instantly and smoothly.

4) It is fun to double clutch...

Yes, I do agree with you that double clutching is not necessary since there are synchros.

peace.....


P.S. I think the car reacts faster when toe-heel double clutching when cornering.. how can you lose time when braking and double clutching at the same time..

NSX-Tuner

I don't believe some of the BS that's been posted on this thread and the flaming that's going on.

You guys should listen to Zapata and the others who say double clutching for downshifts is the proper method for REAL road racing. When braking into a turn, heal-toe should always be used. Call up any race driving school like those held at Thunder Hill, Sears Point, Laguna Seca, etc... and they'll tell you the same thing. For everyday driving, double clutching and heal-toeing is unnecessary unless you're practicing. Please note: this applies to cars with a MT and a clutch, not paddle shifters with auto clutch for up/down shifting.

As far as using double clutching for up shifting... this is from films like Bullet which is completely bogus. NO ONE in REAL road racing ever uses double clutching for up shifting. That's because the relative RPM between the engine and pilot shaft of the tranny is only off from 500 to 1000 RPM. So by the time you up shift into the next gear, the engine has drop closer to a matching RPM - assuming you shift quickly. However, downshifting is a completely different scenario where relative RPMs begin engine and tranny are far greater (1500 - 4000, or much more).

Tom2

If you read the thread, you'll see that Zapata thinks that double clutching is the proper method for driving his car on the streets (all the time). His argument wasn't really about road racing. He's doing it to save his synchros (and at the expense of his throw out bearing and other clutch parts)



BTW, Zapata, I'm still waiting for your so called "proof" of how you're not causing wear to your TOB. I'm a little disappointed that you haven't posted it yet

cusdaddy

I just asked my friend's father who is the head mechanic for a major NYC car dealership about the need to double clutch - I never do myself, but I am a fairly new manual driver, so I wanted their advice.

He laughed and said it is totally unnecessary on today's cars - only if I was driving a truck would I ever need to do it.

He also said that with a well driven manual, excessive synchro wear should not be a problem

My father, a driver of manual cars for many many many years agreed.

Sorry, but I'll take their opinions over a few of you here

cusdaddy

I also wanted to add that each person is free to drive as they feel is best. I just thought I'd add the opinion of a few people who really have good insight into this debate

runnerX

Yes, regular daily driving does not require double clutch or heel-toe at all.. but if you want to enter and exit a corner fast and smooth, then heel/toe double clutch is an ideal way to go.

I only heel/toe double clutching when hard cornering.. not when i am in traffic or regular cruising...



P.S Mechanic does not race... so it is normal that they don't know the advantage of h/t D/D when comes to hard cornering. :P

cusdaddy

Racing wasn't the topic at hand. It was around day-to-day driving. How often do most of us race around the neighborhood?

I never asked him about racing. I doubt I'll or many of us will be taking our cars to a racetrack anytime soon

Tom2

The vast majority of us here agree 100% with your father and mechanic.

It's only an ignorant few that disagree

cusdaddy

I should reword my previous statement to say I'll take their opinion over those that feel the need to double-clutch

Sorry about the misunderstanding. Much of the info in this thread is great.

joeandcarol2

Zapata. I certainly don't want to be involved in the name calling. My comments are in the spirit of a friendly, lively discussion that is entertainment (and a bit of enlightenment) for all. I meant no personal offense. Lets see. Don't remember if you are married by this time or not. But all the best and I'm happy for you.
I like everyone on this forum. Its a great bunch of people... Even the official Troll of Acura-CL.COM

Zapata

Joe,
No offense taken. This is car related chit-chat My door is always open and my hand is always extended for those who need it. Conversations, debates, arguments on this board are just that....life goes on etc., Hope all is well with you!

Doc.Booty

OMG, somebody else who realizes that a debate with someone else does not involve tearing them limb from limb?! UNPOSSIBLE :o

There's no better way to show both sides of an issue than a good debate. This certainly was an informative thread for all.

NSX-Tuner

What all this chatter really breaks down to is individual driving style for daily driving. I think most here would say if we were talking pure road racing, that the double clutching and heal-toeing technique is the only way to go through turns the quickest and smoothest. So the debate is mostly around how we normally drive our MT cars.

For those of you who don't want to or don't think it's necessary to double clutch, you are right in saying so for your driving style. For those of who prefer to double clutch / heal-toe for daily driving, you are right in saying so as well.

But when all has been said who do you think will be better prepared or will more likely have the technique of double clutching/heal-toeing mastered???

Tom2

Back in the late 80's (when I bought my first manual trans car), I learned how to double-clutch, heel and toe, rev-match etc... simply because I am an enthusiast and I wanted to know different driving techniques. Try not to misunderstand the debate here-- nobody is arguing that it's a waste of time to learn driving techniques. The debate centers around whether or not it is necessary in every day driving. If you (or anyone else) wants to experiment with double-clutching, then fine. But realize that even though you may be prolonging the life of your synchros, you are definitely shortening the life of "other" components of your clutch.

That is all I've been trying to point out here

ChadT

I learned how to double clutch for cheap entertainment on my boring drive to work. I mostly use simple rev matching to downshift. However, when I'm cruising along in 6th at 65 or so and I want to nail it in 3rd I always make a quick stop in neutral to bring everything up to speed. It was always my understanding of double clutching that matching the revs in neutral with the clutch engaged was what brought the shafts in the transmission to the same speed and rev matching simply brings the engine up to the proper road speed of the car.

runnerX

Can someone host the video from http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...light=fairlady ?

We all know that G35 coupe and Z350 have syncros, but these professional drivers are toe/heel double clutching on every corner. why? cuz they do it for speed, yes faster cornering... the engine is ready to pull when braking is done... where as engine is at lower RPM and not ready for the lower gear to pull instantly when braking is done. Every professional driver will brake before entering a corner, that is why doing double clutch when braking is not waste of time....

I downloaded the video.. If anyone can host it let me know. If I remember correctly it is a huge file.. I will need to check it tonight (Pacific standard time )


P.S. Like I said ealier.. toe/heel double clutching is not necessary for daily driving.. but it really helps when hard cornering or racing.