ModAddict

OK so with that in mind, a couple of questions come to mind.

1. If we're 310 stock, can we, with our current set-up, remove the FMU and tune with an aggresive injector pulse, or do we need to move to bigger injectors right out of the chute?

2. If we go to the 440's now, before we're intercooled/high boost, will they be too large to tune for our current set-up?

3. OT,... re: wiring,... when we hooked up the EMS, I think we tapped the MAP sensor power and ground. What would you think about using them for the power and ground you diagramed from connector "B", or will that mess up the MAP signal?

4. How is your IC project progressing?

5. Last, but not least,....Trick or Treat?

allmotor_2000

The problem with big injectors is idle... not WOT. You can tune WOT even with 800cc injectors - its the idle that sucks.

Ant7701

OK...more understandable now...thanks guys. Also has anyone ordered the e-manage w/o the S/C...like a CL-S 5AT NA...I like to workability w/ the e-manage...I just wanna know if I would be able to get somewhat of the same hp increases w/ the e-manage??

allmotor_2000

No point (so far) to buy an E-manage on an NA car. Save some $$ and buy a V-AFC.

mattg

why a v-afc? is there a way to alter ignition w/ it?

allmotor_2000

The E-manage cannot advance... and you don't need to retard on an NA car!

mattg

i knew that. i was just wondering why you would recommend the v-afc.

allmotor_2000

Oh... dunno, its somewhat user-friendly... easily available... not that expensive and quite popular!

scalbert

1. We don't know exactly where we are, just guessing. I truly suspect somewhere in between. The problem as it is right now is that we have no room to work with. Even running larger injector would put us to a point where we are still at 80% duty cycle.

We now know the ECU commands 75% - 80% at redline at WOT when it sees a MAP reading of 2.8VDC. However, the stock signal will go to about 4.5VDC under boost. Even with a large offset from 150% larger injector it would still command that same pulse width. So we can add some pulse width from there but not too much as we are already crossing the accepted 80% duty cycle limit.

Had the factory duty cycle been down around 50% to 60% (as is with some other makes) we would have much greater flexibility. But the combination of the high factory pulse width and the need of clamping the MAP signal significantly limits our potential.

The more I think about it based on my installation and desires I will probably start with additional injectors; three 370cc units. This will be enough to support 450 - 500 hp and there is a perfect place to mount them in the new manifold to provide even distribution. I know this will work and is very tunable but am still curious about just running larger injectors.

But I think my choice is made since it will work without impacting the stock idle and low load fueling. Plus, it only requires two or three injectors versus six. But also the issues with potential timing variations will be negated as it will use and then later the normally operation timing.

2. IMO, 440s would run bad at idle or very light load. But again, this would need to be tested.

3. I would not want to draw well over 1 Amp from what the sensor power the ECU provides. Those sensor power signals should be left alone, especially since this unit will drive injectors and ignition coils.

4. The IC seems to be fine as of the last time I check. I was supposed to drop by the machine shop and drop off the base plate to get welded. Unfortunately I have been too busy to make it by there even though it is just three miles from my office. :o

I will definitely stop my Monday and get an ETA on the completion of the body and will report back.

This UniChip and e-Manage thing put me in a hold since I knew I could then control the air and fuel as needed with the addition of the IC. But now it seems everything is coming together. BTW, my female connectors came in today now I am just waiting on the male side....

scalbert

No ignition advance available from what I can tell. So the gains will be limited. But we'll know more in the next few weeks.

allmotor_2000

Steve. I thought the E-Manage can only control 2 additional injectors? Also.. where do you plan on mounting them if its in the plenum?

scalbert

Actually, the e-Manage, without the additional cable and software is better priced than the VAFC and provides the same ability at a lower price. However, that neat vacuum fluorescent isn't included.

With the support tool the e-Manage is much better than the VAFC since it provides greater mapping resolution.

scalbert

It can only control two independent sets but it can drive multiple. If three are used, two would be triggered at the same time. Since they are triggered multiple times per revolution this would be more than adequate.

I would mount them on the primary cover plate on my new plenum. They would be facing the intercooler core and shooting "into the wind". There is just open space here and would allow them to shoot into the primary plenum just above the runner inlets. I would space them evenly for even distribution.

allmotor_2000

Unless it can be mounted on the runner, I'd opt for mounting them pre-throttle-body - allow for better air/fuel mixture. However, you can't push a lot of fuel this way... so that's a limiting factor as well.

Can six injectors fit in the runners under the manifold? Shit.. wish I had my car!

scalbert

Nope, not enough room. But the plenum will more than suffice.

allmotor_2000

Yes, but where on the plenum? You coulc theoretically mount 6 additional injectors (or 4 if centered properly) divided equally between both plenums and pointing directly into each funnel - what do you think?

ModAddict

Very good advice!

I wired up the e-manage cables into the Frog harness last night, and I can't imagine trying to do that down at the ECU harness.

Steve, should I leave tails on the ground and power for the additional injectors?

scalbert

When looking at the below drawing; refer to the assembled unit at the bottom right. They would be installed at the bottom (per the drawing, actually on the side) pointing up towards the intercooler. They would spray above the intake runners. They would actually be mounted to the plate at the left center so they are easily removed for servicing.



But once again, I think I may have changed my mind. I might just try 370cc unit and when more fuel is needed I can use the stock injectors as additional units.

Also, I may have been incorrect about the number of sub-injectors you can run. It may be only two. But I could of sworn that I read somewhere about each output handling multiple units. I'll have to check into this further.

scalbert

BTW, I'm looking into making a change to the specifications I provided before. You should be fine but there may be a better RPM signal source which when used when running additional injectors would provide better control.

I should know for sure later today or tomorrow and will let you know.

BTW, my connectors came in except for the socket; that is coming from Japan. I got enough to make two, maybe three sets provided I don't screw anything up.

Also, for others, the straight through harness Brad is using will not work for the 6-Speed guys. The 5AT (including the 4AT AV6) have a 25P connector; whereas the 6-Speeds have a 24P connector.

ModAddict

I'm going to get a USB adabtor and try to download the communication program on my XP OS. If that works, I'll move on to the parameters and throttle setting. The only thing left will be to see if the engine will start and run.

1. I'm curious about the "D" setting on SW-1 ?

2. Do you think leaving the EMS installed, and the e-manage unchanged, will allow the car to run as if the e-manage was not there?

If you think I should wait for more testing, please speak up!

scalbert

The D setting will monitor the correct RPM, 7 would give you only about 1/4 of the correct value.

The EMS could be left in place for the time being. I would leave all tuning values at 0 so it would be running basically stock and leave it this way for a while.

As for trying it out, sure, the worst that would happen in your garage would be that it wouldn't start and/or throw a code. But if you want to wait until tomorrow for the new potential hook up and settings, that might work out better. I will have this done by around noon tomorrow and will report back.

ModAddict

To Late.

The USB adabtor software would not load on XP , so , I ran the cable straight thru the serial port. Plugged the E-Manage unit into the ECU, and the laptop, turned the car to ON, (not running), and opened the program from the desktop. I expected to be prompted to download something from the main unit, but there was nothing there, and the ONLINE indicator was on so, . After setting the throttle position and monkeying around a bit, I thought well let's see if it will start. It cranked, but No Go, so I tried again but when I turned the ign on, w/o cranking, right away there was what sounded like a small backfire. Tried again, and same thing. I was ready to pull it out and re-check the connections,....then I remembered the questioned SW-1 set on "D". So I changed that back to 7, and she fired right up. So off I went for a ride. Every thing was fine, but the boost cutout must need to be changed because I hit it half way to the top at WOT. The EMS is still hooked up because I was unsure.

All tuning values are untouched.

The settings are as follows,

SW1: 7
SW2: 8
SW3: D

JP1: 1-2
JP2: 2-3
JP3: 2-3
JP4: 1-2
JP5: Off, for now
JP6: Off, for now
JP7: Off

I'm not sure about downloading the latest firmware, or whaever that's all about, and we also know the rpm signal is incorrect at this time, but I'm happy to be this far at this time, but this was the easy part. Now I'll really need help!

ModAddict

I am perfectly fine leaving it just the way it is, but I would like to try to set the boost cut out so as to allow the EMS to do it's job, and allow me to get around town without stumbling around.

ModAddict

That would also be a good exersise to try to reprogram the main unit, so I know that's working.

scalbert

Try tapping into the Connector A, Pin 19, NEP signal for the RPM signal "Brown wire on the e-Manage"; instead of the IG1 ECU output.

This may be the correct signal for our car instead of an ignition signal.

Use the e-Manage software and read the live data of the RPM and let’s see if that is correct. If so I think we have found the settings and are good to go.

scalbert

Do you have the ignition run through the e-Manage?? If so, we are over the first and one of the bigger hurdles.

ModAddict

Will do.

ModAddict

Yes!

ModAddict

The boost map is preset at 5v across the entire range, and the EMS is still hooked up, so I don't quite know how the ECU saw the boost half way into a wot run, unless it wasn't a boost cut-out,...???

It's clamped by the ems before it goes into the emanage, so,....???

scalbert

We would have to see what all is going on. You need to monitor the input and output values. The ECU wouldn't see boost if the ESM was supplying the signal so there might be something else in the mix unless you somehow have advanced the airflow signal with the e-Manage (which it is quite capable of doing).

ModAddict

I was able to upgrade the main unit. I figured out you need to click on the "Update Main Unit" selection from the "Communication" drop down menu on the tool bar. It went right thru the serial port in about 2 minutes. So that's done.

I thought maybe I'd try to clamp the boost thru the eman, so I changed the clamp voltage to 2.8v which seamed to work ok, but I think there is a problem with the rpm set the way it is, besides the wrong rpm reading, or even because of that.

I took it for a ride with the new firmware and boost setting and threw a code on the eman. If I'm reading it right it's #40 which is "improper order of ignition input order", with the error description being "incorrect wiring order of the ignition signal wires". I cleared the code, and took it for even a longer ride, and car runs great with no problems untill I jumped the kick down gear, and it threw the code, but still runs good. I will re-check all the wiring, but I'm pretty sure it's ok, and wait for your confirmation on the rpm signal loation, re-wire it and try again.

scalbert

I'll have the new RPM Input tested in the morning and will let you know. This could cause a problem and set the code since the e-Manage would be getting ignition signals quicker than the RPM input.

I am certainly encouraged by this though as I expected monumental hurdles.

ModAddict

If we end up adding injectors, the eman will send the signal and there is one wire for each one. Will we pull power and ground from somewhere other than this harness, or should I add a couple of taps on the harness now for +/- for the future injectors?

scalbert

Just provide the Ch A and Ch B sub-injector driver leads only. We'll pull and fuse 12VDC from the battery to the injectors. The other side gets one of these two leads.

The e-Manage will pull the signal to ground to command the injector on.

ModAddict

I happen to have a few extra wires from the cabin into the engine room for future modifications.

ModAddict

um,....no that would be from switching #5 & #6 cylinder ignition wiring around.

So that's fixed, pending a test drive. I drove it again after I pulled the eman out last night, and it did seem to run a bit smoother. :o

ModAddict

And who said you couldn't advance the timing with this thing?

scalbert

Yep, SW1 should be set to 7 and the e-Manage RPM input tied to the NEP signal from the ECU. The NEP signal can be found at:

5AT: Connector A, Pin 19, Blue
6-Speet: Connector E, Pin 3, Blue

This tracked RPM perfectly. So I think we are good to go on the wiring, now on to tuning. I'll do up a 5AT and 6-Speed complete diagram including ECU hook-ups, within the next week.

scalbert

Yea, that would make a difference.

scalbert

Once I have mine in and running I'll hook up the scope to see if there can be any advance. Just because the e-Manage says it is advancing does not mean the signal is.