Does a CHECK ENGINE LIGHT guarantee a smog failure?

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Old 06-29-2004, 08:36 PM
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Does a CHECK ENGINE LIGHT guarantee a smog failure?

Hey guys, my GF's Sentra is getting sold probabley sometime this week, and the registration can be renewed in September without a Smog CHeck. However, now she wants to sell it and the Check Engine light is on. Does the new owner have to smog it in order for the title to change hands? Nissan said that she will fail the check for sure. Is this true?
Old 06-29-2004, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ktgumbo
Hey guys, my GF's Sentra is getting sold probabley sometime this week, and the registration can be renewed in September without a Smog CHeck. However, now she wants to sell it and the Check Engine light is on. Does the new owner have to smog it in order for the title to change hands? Nissan said that she will fail the check for sure. Is this true?

I would bet that if the check engine light is on for an engine related problem, you’re going to fail.

I believe the seller is responsible for all of the smog issues when selling the car in state. There's an exception to this, if you sell to a car dealer (well, that's what I was told).

At least find out what the code is causing the engine light to come on. If it's just an O2 sensor, it shouldn't be too hard or expensive to fix.
Old 06-29-2004, 09:23 PM
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Can a normal repair shop tell me what the code is to repair the problem?
Old 06-29-2004, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ktgumbo
Can a normal repair shop tell me what the code is to repair the problem?
It depends. OBDII scanners are universal up to codes 1000. After that, the codes are brand-specific, meaning you HAVE TO go to the dealership to find out what the problem is.

In most cases, however, issues related to the emissions controls are Federally regulated and are subject to the universal codes.

Go to AutoZone in the area and get it scanned for free. Then you can find out what to do. If it is an O2 sensor, then it's probably like a 100-dollar fix. But if it's something else, like the catalytic converter, that's gonna hurt your wallet.

Either way, find out what code it is and let us know. Then we can help point you to the right direction.
Old 06-29-2004, 09:53 PM
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IF she does go and get the Smog Check and does fail. Does that go to the DMV, and they make take away her privilage to register her car again for the next year without it?
Old 06-30-2004, 01:11 AM
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I thought when your check engine light is on, you automatically fail visual part of the smog inspection.
Old 06-30-2004, 02:02 AM
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Hehe... Michigan doesn't have emissions tests.

Well, at least not until 2007.
Old 06-30-2004, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by sgmotoring
I thought when your check engine light is on, you automatically fail visual part of the smog inspection.
Bingo!

That's what supposed to happen. If the guy is in a hurry and just checks it off, well, dumb is dumb. We seem to get the anal guys, and a friend of mine gets people that would probably miss a NHRA top-fuel S/C poking out of the hood…

If you don't get the smog #s you need -- and you are considered a "gross poluter", you're going to be heading to a referee station for some real fun...


LINK: http://smogtips.com/visual_inspection.cfm

The Visual Inspection

During the visual portion of the Smog Inspection, the smog technician will be looking for the presence and proper connection of several State of California required, emission components. These components are all designed to reduce overall engine emissions. The technician must locate the components and verify that they are properly connected. Along with the components listed below, the smog technician will be looking for any defective or disconnected electrical connections, vacuum hoses and/or any pipe or plumbing which would effect engine performance and emissions increase.


Note: The technician's inspection is visual, and does not include the testing for proper operation of any emissions component. The technician is required to simply locate the components visually and insure they appear properly connected. If a vehicle fails the smog inspection, it is up to the vehicle owner to have the individual components inspected for proper operation.

This is true for all emissions components except the EGR valve and "Check Engine" light. The EGR valve will be inspected for functionality anytime a vehicle undergoes the "Basic" version of California's smog test, as opposed to the "Enhanced" smog test (which utilizes a Dynamometer). The "Check Engine" light is inspected on all vehicles which are equipped with one.


During your personal inspection at home, ensure all hoses and wires properly connected. The following is a list of emission components that will be examined by the smog technician:


The Under hood Emission Label
Exhaust Gas Recirculation Valve (EGR)
Positive Crankcase Ventilation valve (PCV)
Charcoal Canister (Evaporation Control System)
Catalytic Converter (CAT)
Oxygen Sensor (O2 Sensor)
Air Injection System (AIR)
Pre-Heat Tube
In any event, if the light is on, the car needs someone to find out what’s causing the light.

It's really that simple.

Also, if it’s a cat or 02 sensor, it’s much cheaper to have a good mechanic do the job that you tell them to do (the OBD II diagnostic code will generally let you know if the cat is fried and/or if the 02 sensor is trashed – along with myriad other things). captainobvious:
Old 06-30-2004, 04:17 AM
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More info. P0 = generic. P1 = specific. AutoZone -> good info!

Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
It depends. OBDII scanners are universal up to codes 1000. After that, the codes are brand-specific, meaning you HAVE TO go to the dealership to find out what the problem is.

In most cases, however, issues related to the emissions controls are Federally regulated and are subject to the universal codes.

Go to AutoZone in the area and get it scanned for free. Then you can find out what to do. If it is an O2 sensor, then it's probably like a 100-dollar fix. But if it's something else, like the catalytic converter, that's gonna hurt your wallet.

Either way, find out what code it is and let us know. Then we can help point you to the right direction.
The codes starting with P0 are generic codes.

The P1 codes are manufacturer specific.

Even my cheapo EQUUS hand held has a link for looking up manufacturer specific codes. If we were talking about a brand new Porsche Carrera GT, I wouldn't count on being able to every single code. However, a lot of the higher end diagnostic gear makers have connections and ways to get "most" if not all of the manufacturing specific codes.



And, here is a link that is for the little $130 EQUUS:

http://www.iequus.com/obd_def.asp

And, yes, you are so right about getting that scan at a local mechanic, buddy, or AutoZone. Good suggestion! The dealer charged a friend $400 to diagnose and replace an O2 sensor on his Maxima. Nice -- huh?

Some info and useful links:

Engine Management - An In-Depth Look At A High-Tech System

CHECK BLUE ARE RED AREAS IN THE QUOTED SECTION BELOW

Engine Management - An In-Depth Look At A High-Tech System
by Larry Carley
The performance and emissions that today's engines deliver would be impossible without the electronics that manage everything from ignition and fuel delivery to every aspect of emissions control. Electronics make possible V8 engines that deliver excellent performance, good fuel economy and produce almost no pollution. But there's a price to be paid for today's technology, and that price is complexity.

Many powertrain control modules (PCMs) today have 16-bit and even 32-bit processors. Though not as powerful as the latest desktop personal computers, PCMs can still crunch a lot of information.

It's been said that today's automotive PCMs have more computing power than the Space Shuttle's main processors. Kind of scary to think about, isn't it?

So, does it take a rocket scientist to troubleshoot and repair drivability problems in today's cars? No, but it does take a lot of knowledge, experience and sophisticated diagnostic equipment. Fortunately, you don't have to be an expert to sell your customers the engine management replacement parts they need. But you do have to be familiar with the basics of computerized engine control, know what many of the sensors do and understand how difficult it is to accurately diagnose and repair many drivability problems today.

IN A NUTSHELL
From the outside, most PCMs look similar: just a metal box with some connectors on it. The PCM's job is to manage the powertrain. This includes the engine's ignition system, fuel injection system and emission controls. The PCM receives inputs from a wide variety of sensors and switches. Some of the more important ones will be discussed in the following paragraphs.

THE SENSORS
The oxygen sensor provides information about the fuel mixture. The PCM uses this to constantly re-adjust and fine tune the air/fuel ratio. This keeps emissions and fuel consumption to a minimum. A bad O2 sensor will typically make an engine run rich, use more fuel and pollute. O2 sensors tend to deteriorate with age and may be contaminated if the engine burns oil or develops a coolant leak.

On 1996 and newer vehicles, there is also an additional O2 sensor behind the catalytic converter to monitor converter efficiency.

Though most O2 sensors have no recommended replacement interval (replace "as needed" only), sluggish O2 sensors can be replaced to restore like-new performance. Unheated one- or two-wire O2 sensors on 1976 through early 1990s applications can be replaced every 30,000 to 50,000 miles. Heated three- and four-wire O2 sensors on mid-1980s through mid-1990s applications can be changed every 60,000 miles. And on OBD II equipped vehicles, the sensor could be replaced once it has seen 100,000 miles.
The coolant sensor monitors engine temperature. The PCM uses this information to regulate a wide variety of ignition, fuel and emission control functions. When the engine is cold, for example, the fuel mixture needs to be richer to improve drivability. Once the engine reaches a certain temperature, the PCM starts using the signal from the O2 sensor to vary the fuel mixture. This is called "closed loop" operation, and it is necessary to keep emissions to a minimum.

The throttle position sensor (TPS) keeps the PCM informed about throttle position. The PCM uses this input to change spark timing and the fuel mixture as engine load changes. A problem here can cause a flat spot during acceleration (like a bad accelerator pump in a carburetor) as well as other drivability complaints.

The Airflow Sensor, of which there are several types, tells the PCM how much air the engine is drawing in as it runs. The PCM uses this to further vary the fuel mixture as needed. There are several types of airflow sensors including hot wire mass airflow sensors and the older flap-style vane airflow sensors. All are very expensive to replace.
Some engines do not have an airflow sensor and only estimate how much air the engine is actually taking in by monitoring engine rpm and using inputs from the throttle position sensor, a manifold absolute pressure sensor (MAP) and manifold air temperature (MAT) sensor. Problems with the airflow sensor can upset the fuel mixture and various drivability problems (hard starting, hesitation, stalling, rough idle, etc.)

The crankshaft position sensor serves the same function as the pickup assembly in an engine with a distributor. It does two things: It monitors engine rpm and helps the computer determine relative position of the crankshaft so the PCM can control spark timing and fuel delivery in the proper sequence. The PCM also uses the crank sensor's input to regulate idle speed, which it does by sending a signal to an idle speed control motor or idle air bypass motor. On some engines, an additional camshaft position sensor is used to provide additional input to the PCM about valve timing.

The manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor measures intake vacuum, which the PCM also uses to determine engine load. The MAP sensor's input affects ignition timing primarily, but also fuel delivery.

Knock sensors are used to detect vibrations produced by detonation. When the PCM receives a signal from the knock sensor, it momentarily retards timing while the engine is under load to protect the engine against spark knock.

The EGR position sensor tells the PCM when the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) valve opens (and how much). This allows the PCM to detect problems with the EGR system that would increase pollution.

The vehicle speed sensor (VSS) keeps the PCM informed about how fast the vehicle is traveling. This is needed to control other functions such as torque converter lockup. The VSS signal is also used by other control modules, including the antilock brake system (ABS).

A couple of things to keep in mind when selling replacement sensors: Parts that are physically interchangeable may not be calibrated the same and won't work properly if installed in the wrong application. To make sure your customer gets the correct replacement part, it may be necessary to refer to the vehicle VIN as well as OEM numbers on the original part. Some aftermarket parts may not look exactly the same as the original. A "universal" O2 sensor, for example, may fit a large number of applications but usually requires cutting and splicing wires to install.

OTHER PCM FUNCTIONS
On many vehicles the PCM also controls the transmission. But on some vehicles, a separate transmission control module (TCM) is used to oversee gear changes and the torque converter. But even if there's a separate module for the transmission, the PCM and TCM talk to each other and share data so each knows what the other is doing.

On many newer vehicles, the PCM also regulates charging system voltage; cycles the cooling fan on and off; interacts with the antilock brake system (ABS) module to reduce power if the vehicle has traction control; and may even interact with the automatic temperature control (ATC) module to operate the cycling of the air conditioning compressor clutch. The PCM may also be assigned vehicle security tasks.

One of the PCM's most important jobs is to make sure all the engine's sensors are working properly and that the engine isn't polluting. Since the earliest days of the onboard computer, a certain amount of self-diagnostic capability has always been required to detect problems that might upset the smooth operation of the system. On older vehicles, the diagnostics were relatively crude. If a sensor circuit went open (no signal) or shorted, the gross failure would set a trouble code and turn on the check engine light. But many conditions that didn't cause a total failure could also upset engine performance and drivability. What's more, the earlier systems had no way of monitoring many conditions that could increase pollution. So the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) required every city and state that didn't meet Federal clean air standards to institute some type of vehicle emissions inspection program.

EMISSIONS AND OBD2
Emissions testing has certainly helped boost the sales of aftermarket PCMs, sensors and emission control parts. But more importantly, it has made a significant improvement in the air quality of most large metropolitan areas. Even so, many motorists will only seek repairs if forced to do so because their vehicle failed an emissions test. Many put off repairs until their vehicle is barely drivable or dies and leaves them stranded.
With computerized engine control systems, it doesn't take much of a sensor input problem to adversely affect drivability and emissions. A sluggish O2 sensor, a defective coolant sensor that always stays cold, a throttle position sensor that has a dead spot, an airflow sensor that isn't reading accurately, etc., can all hurt performance, fuel economy and emissions.

In an attempt to ratchet up the self-diagnostic capability of PCMs, the California Air Resources Board developed a "next generation" onboard diagnostic system called OBD2. "OBD" is an acronym for "On Board Diagnostics." The "2" stands for "second-generation system." OBD2 first appeared in 1994, and it has been required on all cars and light trucks since 1996.

Unlike earlier onboard diagnostic systems that set a diagnostic trouble code only when a sensor failed or read out of range, OBD2 monitors most engine functions while the vehicle is being driven. It is designed to detect almost any problem that can cause emissions to exceed the federal limit by 1.5 times.

OBD2 is extremely sensitive. Some say it is overly sensitive because the vehicle manufacturers have been overly cautious in setting trigger points below the 1.5 threshold to reduce the risk of expensive emission recalls. As a result, some vehicles may not actually have an emissions problem when the Check Engine light is on. Nevertheless, the problem should always be investigated to determine the cause.



CHECK ENGINE LIGHT
The check engine light, which is technically called the "Malfunction Indicator Lamp" or MIL, is supposed to alert the driver when an emissions or sensor problem occurs. Depending on how the system is configured and the nature of the problem, the lamp may come on and go off, remain on continuously or flash - all of which can be very confusing to the motorist because he has no way of knowing what the light means. Is it a serious problem or not? If the engine seems to be running okay, the motorist may simply ignore the light.

To address this issue, AutoZone recently announced a nationwide "Check Engine Light Program" for its stores. When a motorist has a Check Engine light on, he can take his vehicle to an AutoZone store for a free diagnosis. A store employee plugs a code reader or basic scan tool into the vehicle's diagnostic connector and reads out the code. In theory, this provides a diagnosis so the appropriate part(s) can be replaced.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as it sounds. A trouble code is only a starting place. It's not the final diagnosis. Somebody still has to check out the various components in the affected circuit to determine exactly what is causing the problem. This often requires following a lengthy diagnostic chart to isolate the fault. Jumping to conclusions often results in a faulty diagnosis.

For example, let's say a vehicle has an OBD2 code for the oxygen sensor circuit (code P0130). The code might indicate a bad sensor, or it might indicate a loose connector or wiring problem.

Harder to diagnose are misfire codes. OBD2 can detect misfires in individual cylinders as well as random misfires. If it generates a misfire code for a single cylinder (say P0301 for the #1 cylinder), it only tells you the cylinder is misfiring - not why. The underlying cause could be a bad spark plug, a bad plug wire, a weak coil on a distributorless ignition system (DIS) or coil-on-plug (COP) system, a dirty or dead fuel injector or a compression problem (bad valve, leaky head gasket, rounded cam lobe, etc.). As you can see, there are multiple possibilities, so it takes some diagnostic expertise to isolate the fault before any parts can be replaced.

A "random misfire code" (P0300) is even harder to diagnose because there can be numerous causes. A random misfire usually means the air/fuel mixture is running lean. But the cause might be anything from a hard-to-find vacuum leak to dirty injectors, low fuel pressure, a weak ignition coil, bad plug wires or compression problems.

Something else to keep in mind about OBD2 fault codes is that some codes are false codes. GM has had problems with certain 3.8L engines setting P1406 codes, which indicates a fault in the EGR valve. Replacing the EGR valve doesn't fix the problem because the OBD2 system is overly sensitive to how quickly the EGR valve opens when it is commanded to do so by the PCM. The cure here is not to replace the EGR valve but to "flash reprogram" the computer so it is less sensitive to this condition. Referring to vehicle manufacturer technical service bulletins (TSBs) can save a lot of time and frustration for these kinds of problems.

Something else that complicates diagnosis is that "standardized" OBD2 codes really aren't. There are actually two different types. "Generic" OBD2 codes are the same in the sense that all vehicle manufacturers use the same code numbers to indicate the same type of problem. But each vehicle manufacturer also has their own special "enhanced" codes that cover problems not included in the basic OBD2 code list. These include many problems not covered by the generic codes as well as problems that are outside the engine management system such as ABS codes, climate control codes, body codes, air bag codes, etc.

Generic OBD2 codes all start with "P0" while the OEM enhanced codes all start with a "P1." Enhanced codes are often vehicle specific and may not be readable with some code readers or scan tools. In other words, it may require special software or a dealer scan tool to read the enhanced codes.

Diagnosing computerized engine control systems and sensors isn't an easy task, but that's the price we pay for drastically reduced emissions and the feature-laden vehicles we drive today. So make sure your customers have done their diagnostic homework before they replace critical engine management system parts. It will save you both a lot of frustration and needless returns.

Interchange and Calibrations
A couple of things to keep in mind when selling replacement sensors: Parts that are physically interchangeable may not be calibrated the same and won't work properly if installed in the wrong application. To make sure your customer gets the correct replacement part, it may be necessary to refer to the vehicle VIN as well as OEM numbers on the original part. Some aftermarket parts may not look exactly the same as the original. A "universal" O2 sensor, for example, may fit a large number of applications but usually requires cutting and splicing wires to install.

O2 Replacement Intervals
Though most O2 sensors have no recommended replacement interval (replace "as needed" only), sluggish O2 sensors can be replaced to restore like-new performance. Unheated one- or two-wire O2 sensors on 1976 through early 1990s applications can be replaced every 30,000 to 50,000 miles. Heated three- and four-wire O2 sensors on mid-1980s through mid-1990s applications can be changed every 60,000 miles. And on OBD II equipped vehicles, the sensor could be replaced once it has seen 100,000 miles.

AND a link to diagnostic gear and diagnostic code links, etc:

http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/scaninfo.shtml
Old 06-30-2004, 04:22 AM
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Yeah, that's what I meant by "up to codes 1000". Like, 1000 and up codes are brand-specific.


$400 to replace an O2 sensor? Are you shitting me? Your friend actually paid that? I would've spit on their shoes, thrown them a hundred and left.

My primary O2 sensor has a dead heater circuit, and I got the code scanned for free at AutoZone. And I just ordered a new O2 sensor from Tim at Hondacura world for 71 dollars shipped. It will take 10 minutes to put it in.

Geez, that's why I hate dealerships. I don't know how these people sleep at night.
Old 06-30-2004, 05:32 AM
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Raiders of your lost income.

Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Yeah, that's what I meant by "up to codes 1000". Like, 1000 and up codes are brand-specific.


$400 to replace an O2 sensor? Are you shitting me? Your friend actually paid that? I would've spit on their shoes, thrown them a hundred and left.

My primary O2 sensor has a dead heater circuit, and I got the code scanned for free at AutoZone. And I just ordered a new O2 sensor from Tim at Hondacura world for 71 dollars shipped. It will take 10 minutes to put it in.

Geez, that's why I hate dealerships. I don't know how these people sleep at night.
Code meaning: roger -- got that now...

The dealers: they are complete scumbags. They need to hoist this before boarding your car and plundering it and your wallet:



Arr, we be taking your money now ... Arr, matey We'll be keel hauling you with your next service and thems that dies be the lucky ones… Arr Arr

My comment was something like: "You got to be shitting me ... you got screwed." They claimed that the price was for the diagnostic and even tried to talk him into a injector cleaning. Oh boy, when they get greedy....
Old 06-30-2004, 05:46 AM
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Diagnostics, my ass.

It's funny how they always say "There's no code, we can't do anything.", but when a code actually does go off, they charge you up the ass for "diagonistics."

Diagnostics for my O2 sensor problem was done in a minute. I mean, if your friend had a problem with random misfire or something, then I can understand charging more for diagnostics. But it's just an O2 sensor malfunction, for crying out loud!!

I feel sorry for your friend. I hope he doesn't get had like that on a regular basis, because he's going to have a rough life.
Old 06-30-2004, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Diagnostics, my ass.

It's funny how they always say "There's no code, we can't do anything.", but when a code actually does go off, they charge you up the ass for "diagonistics."

Diagnostics for my O2 sensor problem was done in a minute. I mean, if your friend had a problem with random misfire or something, then I can understand charging more for diagnostics. But it's just an O2 sensor malfunction, for crying out loud!!

I feel sorry for your friend. I hope he doesn't get had like that on a regular basis, because he's going to have a rough life.

Don't start me... I have enough "dealer -- step away from the car... step away from the car" stories to fill a book. X-rated by Steven King.
Old 06-30-2004, 10:07 AM
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To address this issue, AutoZone recently announced a nationwide "Check Engine Light Program" for its stores. When a motorist has a Check Engine light on, he can take his vehicle to an AutoZone store for a free diagnosis. A store employee plugs a code reader or basic scan tool into the vehicle's diagnostic connector and reads out the code. In theory, this provides a diagnosis so the appropriate part(s) can be replaced.

I jsut called them, and appraretly in Cali we have to rent it for $183, and do it ourselves. When I return it, I will get all my money back. Is this difficult to do? I have no idea about car stuff?
Old 06-30-2004, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ktgumbo
To address this issue, AutoZone recently announced a nationwide "Check Engine Light Program" for its stores. When a motorist has a Check Engine light on, he can take his vehicle to an AutoZone store for a free diagnosis. A store employee plugs a code reader or basic scan tool into the vehicle's diagnostic connector and reads out the code. In theory, this provides a diagnosis so the appropriate part(s) can be replaced.

I jsut called them, and appraretly in Cali we have to rent it for $183, and do it ourselves. When I return it, I will get all my money back. Is this difficult to do? I have no idea about car stuff?
What year is the Sentra again?

It depends on the brand and model, but in most cases, you will find the OBDII dataport underneath the steering column. It's a rectangular shaped port with a bunch of holes in it, like the serial printer port.

Turn the car off, plug it in, and turn the key to ON position. You don't have to start the engine. Watch the screen on the scanner, and it'll give you the instructions. Most models start linking automatically, but even if it doesn't, it's easy to figure out.

Wait 'til it says link is established, then you can go to view codes. It will give you the code number and the description. Write them down, come back, and let us know what it is.
Old 06-30-2004, 07:55 PM
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It is a 1995. I called my auto mech, and he said bring it in, and he would check it out 4 free, so im gona do that route and see the damage.
Old 06-30-2004, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ktgumbo
It is a 1995. I called my auto mech, and he said bring it in, and he would check it out 4 free, so im gona do that route and see the damage.

http://www.mercedesshop.com/ottoscan...pliantcars.pdf

Should definitely be OBD II compliant.
Old 06-30-2004, 10:35 PM
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I thought 96 and below were OBDI. But I think OBDII scanners can still scan it.
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