ChadT

UR claims that harmonic balancers are not used anymore and that reports of failures from the pulleys are "myths". Sounds fishey to me. Here is thier FAQ on the pulleys.

http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/faq_pulleys.html

Slimey

There was a long thread here where folks from UR posted their opinions. Check it out for some light reading.
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...threadid=72786

allmotor_2000

Shad just called me. Asked me what I was planning on doing and I said I was putting everything back to stock. He kept insisting that I am the ONLY one with the UR Pulley and the Flywheel and that is probably the reason - I said I can't risk taking another chance. He said he will 'plead' my case with Bob (sales manager) and try to get me some money back?!? I have a letter to Comptech stating my situation and expecting a full refund... will mail this to them next week.

This is NOT Comptech-bashing in any means... I am just not happy with how this particular product turned out in my situation. Is Comptech liable for all the labor/repairs etc...? Probably not! Is UR liable for all the labor/repairs etc...? Probably not! However.. if a product doesn't work and I have tried pretty much all 'reasonable' ways of trying to solve the issue... the product has to go back to the manufacturer!

He was curious about my turbo... I said I was using the stock clutch when I had it

jimcol711

you SHOULD be comptech bashing, i dont get you. dont you see youve been completely FUCKED UP YOUR ASS by comptech??? why are you being so docile about this??? you should be lighting a fire under their ass to reimburse you for all the bullshit theyve caused you. i would NEVER be letting this go like you have, its really insane and its EASILY provable in court that they mislead you and caused you to waste even more money on all this labor, down-time without your car, etc. dont be such a push-over, do something about it. have a lawyer call up this Shad character, youll see how fast a check for all your expenses is in your hand

scalbert

Jeez truck boy, you are certainly not in a professional environment. Quite honestly, I don't get you. You have little to no knowledge on the situation or even the mechanical specifics involved. But yet you are flaming away as though your input is relevant.

Calm down and let things transpire. We don’t know what the problem is so blame cannot be made. Doing so may limit potential negotiations Ramanan may have with Comptech.

But out of curiosity, please provide a legible explanation, less expletives, of how you are sure Comptech is screwing Ramana.

ChadT

Yeah that's a half a days reading there. Here is a good explaination of what happens when you remove the damper and add a lightweight pulley.

http://dinancars.com/html/danger_of_power_pulleys.htm

The funny thing is that after reading it I can undestand why you wouldn't want to use a UR crank pulley but it brings up the question (if I'm understanding the torsional vibration thing which is new to me). How would removing this damper cause so much vibration at the flywheel end. The torsional flex of the crank would be greatest away from the loaded end. Seems like there are still a lot of things up in the air on this. I wish someone from Comptech would give some more info on exactly how the pulley caused this. Or if somebody here understands it and can translate it into idiot freindly terms.

jimcol711

what do you mean im not in a professional environment? lol....acura-cl forums isnt "professional" by any means, its an internet forum. and as far as my personal life, i do happen to be in a professional environment everyday, and of course i dont run my mouth at work, that would be foolish, but if i was getting FU---..excuse me.....SCREWED over like this guy, i WOULD be completely angry and pursuing all legal actions to recoup my damages.

how do i have "little or know knowledge on the situation"?? ive followed all this guys horror stories over the last few months, reading the posts...how do i have any less knowledge than anyone else commenting on this? while i may speak in stronger terms than most, read back over this thread, youll see quite a few agree with me, didnt you notice that???

comptech was clueless as to what the problem was...if they had said from the get-go "ok, theres a problem, just send it back for a refund, its done" that wouldve been the noble thing, but they were basically troubleshooting their product at his personal expense, how is that not FUC---....excuse me.....SCREWED UP??? they encouraged him to keep getting it replaced and keep wasting money on labor because they were clueless.

how would you like it if your kid got sick and you kept going to the doctor and the doc was clueless and just keeped prescribing more and more drugs that did nothing and in some cases, made the situation work. wouldnt you be pissed at this doctor? after wasting your time and money and not being able to come up with a solution to the problem and leaving your child no better than she was the first time you brought her in???? of course you would. and dont tell me this analogy isnt applicable. its exactly the same thing.

scalbert

Good, I was a bit worried that your mouth (or rather keyboard etiquette) was going to create a short lived career.

What I mean by little to no knowledge is on the actual cause of the problem.

What is being missed here and what people are doing because it is the simplest direction, is placing the seemingly obvious blame. However, if you analyze the situation and all the dependant factors you may realize that we cannot yet place blame. We don't know what the problem is. Heaven forbid, but what if the stock clutch goes back on and there is a problem?? What if the Comptech clutch went back on less the UR pulley and there was no problem?? With the two mentioned situations, how would Comptech be screwing anyone??

The fact is that we don't know. As such, Comptech can't foresee all situations and can only provide information as they have experienced and planned for. If it does turn out to be the UR pulley causing the problem, then both Comptech and Ramanan are out $$ If the stock clutch fails then they are both out still but Ramanan now needs to delve further.

As I stated, let’s wait and see what transpires before placing blame.

cusdaddy

I feel that Comptech is partly at fault here, and if Allmotor is persistant, hopefully he hopefully will be reimbursed.

As a I said before, he was partly their R&D guinea pig. The fact that they are putting a notice to not use the product with UR pulleys clearly shows that at Allmotor's expense, Comptech is now informed of potential compatibility issues with their product. This in turn will mitigate potential losses and similar issues in the future for them.

I just think that if Allmotor continues a civil conversation with Comptech but is firm with wanting some form of reimbursement, I believe this can be resolved somewhat.

I just get the feeling some here give Comptech a little too much lee-way here. If this exact same situation happened with OBX, I doubt many would be defending them vs. Comptech.

ChadT

So how are we ever going to know for sure that this was the pulley or the flywheel or what? I don't think Comptech has provided enough information to say that you can buy their flywheel/clutch combo and as long as you don't have a light crank pulley you won't have any problems. It's a very good guess and there is some data to back up the statement but I still don't feel like I would want to get the flywheel without having this issue proven one way or the other. Comptech does get treated with an awfull lot of respect on this forum. I for one am a little unimpressed with their somewhat indifferent approach to handling this situation.

allmotor_2000

Well... I have been trying to ignore this 'side-thread' about how I should behave... but here goes:

First off.. I am VERY pissed about getting FUCKED in the ass by this SITUATION... NOT anybody in particular. I am not a docile person by nature... but in this particular situation, it is not wise to just go ahead and keep barking at Comptech. I need DATA... and I am in the process of putting together this data.

Comptech isn't liable for much, if any... although YES, they wanted to get some R&D done at my expense. No.. they need not have knows the UR pulley can cause problems - not that it is proved that the UR pulley does anything at all! If I were to try the clutch/flywheel with the stock pulley... and it doesn't break... then I have done a HELL OF A LOT OF R&D for Comptech. If it does break... I am screwed once again and will have to go back to the stock unit.

So... to minimize my losses... I am going to the stock unit right now. I will ask Comptech for a refund...

scalbert

Exactly and I agree completely.

ChucksTL_RENAMED

Regarding all your posts Scalbert, well said....

ChadT

That's what I'm talking about when I say derogatory things regarding Comptech. I would think they would be getting you the parts and helping you out any way they could to get the opportunity to completely eliminate their flywheel from causing the pressure plate to fail. The dual mass flywheel also damps vibration and we haven't heard of any stock clutch/flywheel failures on a CL with the UR pulley. Not saying that it's not the pulley but I don't feel that it has been proven either way.

I think you have handled the situation in a very admirable way. I just hate to see the story end without knowing for certain what happened.

allmotor_2000

The shittiest thing that can happen is if my clutch breaks now with the stock flywheel and stock pulley

ModAddict

At that point we will be taking up a collection for the "Save Allmotor's Mariage Foundation"


:-* = :swear2:

allmotor_2000

It's her birthday coming up... so I need to make up for all this BIG TIME!

SLY1TYPES

Hey allmotor ar you done with modding your car, by this i mean i have seen some of the things that your selling, what are you leaving on your car???

darrinb

damn i cant belive your goin back to stock

allmotor_2000

Just the Comptech headers and intake.... still runs like a 13.9 on a good day... so I am not going to be that depressed

ModAddict

I bet we could arrange for a few birthday cards to show up for her,....maybe even a few sympathy cards.

allmotor_2000

Well... car is back to stock flywheel/clutch - seems okay

SLY1TYPES

so you had the stock one put back in by the dealer?


How long do you have to wait till you can drive hard??

How many hours of labor did the dealer charge you for??


kevin

allmotor_2000

Probably 300 miles before any type of hard engagements or shifts.

Juker008

Ok here is my question. Now the flywheel is a light one correct? Does that mean that there is no dampening material on the flywheel at all. Now the tranny has tranny mounts the engine has engine mounts. Shouldn't those two be able to absorb any small vibrations that may arise?

Let me ask u this. Do u double clutch? Yea I know its not a racing box, but I do the same on my M Coupe. Resolves that bang u get when u go from 5th to 3rd at 80.

Honstly man, I can't seem to emagine that it would be the clutch/flywheel/UR Pully combo that is causing this problem? How many cars do we know out there that hare runnning with that set up?







Juker008

allmotor_2000

I spent a long time yesterday looking at the broken pressure-plate in detail. The ring (or clip) that breaks is very firmly mounted to the pressure-plate - it has no 'give'.. so for it to break off due to vibration is very hard to imagine or theorize! It has something to do with clutch travel and some kind of hard force/jolt that piece experiences - very bizarre!

NSX-Tuner

Looking at the stock flywheel/clutch and comptech flywheel/clutch assemblies in pictures, it appears that the stock flywheel/clutch assembly has more dampening built into it. This helps reduce the stress on the diaphram pressure plate. In addition, the lighter comptech flywheel has a quicker moment of inertia because it's lighter which means, it doesn't absorb as much energy as the stock flywheel does and ends up transferring additional energy to the clutch assembly.

From my mechanical engineering background, it makes perfect sense why the comptech flywheel/clutch is breaking under high stress conditions. I think comptech should have built in additional dampening between the flywheel and clutch to protect the diaphram pressure plate and supporting hardware.

Slimey

More food for thought in reading this thread...and back to the idea that allmotor has performed some important R&D for this product on Comptechs behalf.

Why would someone install a performance clutch package if s/he is not going to use it under 'performace' or high stress conditions?

From ComptechUSA.com (I put in the bold emphasis): Seems to me like they want to sell this as a performance package -- but maybe by following with the word 'street' and not 'race' diminishes the performance-ability of this product.

Also note that it is intended for mild to moderately modified engines. My own interpretation would be that a moderately modified engine would include bolt-ons (such as allmotor's engine), as opposed to a highly modified engine which would include changes to the internal workings.

allmotor_2000

Well... I don't care anymore - its going back to Comptech and I want my $$$ back.

allmotor_2000

It cracks me up when it says it should be 'tougher' than the stock clutch and can handle mild to modified engines!

ChadT

Definitely. Doubt they'll be selling any more to members of this forum either. I also take my car to the rev limit and I certainly wouldn't trust the stock pressure plate with this flywheel.

scalbert

The questionable part is still the pulley. Eric has had more miles on the clutch than anyone and he certainly drives hard. His is holding up strong and without a problem. I believe there are one or two others with it and without problems. Plus, this does not account for non-ACL members.

So what variations do we have; the UR pulley and the possibility of something else wrong in the transaxle are the obvious areas. We have discussed that the UR pulley may be the problem but is yet unproven. The lack of dampening could cause harmonics; not noticeable vibrations, which could cause stress on even small parts.

Otherwise, could something have happened with the transaxle which is showing its self now and is just a coincidence to the clutch being installed? Ramanan's car has been run harder and made more power than any other J32A2 we know of. Could something be going on causing this problem?? We'll see after some time is spent on the stock clutch but the signs may take longer due to the larger and dual mass.

If the problem does not resurface and others with the clutch (and without the UR pulley) do not have problems; that would help to isolate the UR pulley. At which point we all gain knowledge, at Ramanan’s expense, on what does not work together. But IMO, that is still not Comptech's R&D job or should be expected.

scalbert

I wouldn't say that. I am intrigued enough to test this futher. But in my case I'll do it only once and will probably help the dealer and we will use the tool.

Slimey

Interesting points.

allmotor_2000

If the problem is somewhere in the transmission... I'll find out for sure! However, where could it be is the question. Really, the only way(s) for that piece to break is throwout bearing travelling too far - BUT, this should happen the first time I press/release the clutch. I sure hope nothing else is wrong... but all these problems started happening only after the Comptech flywheel was put on. I ran stock for a while... then with only the UR pulley and then the Comptech unit. The transmission itself is a pretty self-contained unit and I don't see that causing any of this.

ChadT

Yes the pulley seems to be a possibility but I don't feel it's been totally proven. One other thing to consider with regard to this is the fact that the 3.5 crank has longer throws and would possibly change the harmonic vibration characteristics. On the other hand a V6 has a short crank and torsional vibration shouldn't be that extreme. I don't think anything is proven on this I also don't think there are enough (if any) of these units with a proven record of withstanding the same level of force that Allmotor has subjected his to. It's unfortunate that there is such a small market for these that we may never know the real answer to these questions.

allmotor_2000

ChadT... if you take a look at the pressure-plate... it just looks very difficult to believe crank vibrations can cause this piece fo crack and break-off. It might be possible... but difficult to fathom. This piece breaks ONLY during a high-rpm shift (7200K or more)

ChadT

Yeah seems more like a lack of cushioning from the dual mass flywheel or possibly not enough give to the Comptech clutch disc. It really is a weird pressure plate.

I wish someone who understands torsional vibration better would chime in. From what I was able to discover though it looks like the vibration would be mostly manifested at the pulley end of the crank as the farther you get away from the crank the more twist there is which is what torsional vibration comes from. I'm not an expert on this by any means. I can see why removing the damper might be a bad idea (there are tons of arguments on this debate as well) but I don't see how this would destroy a pressure plate. Did amisconception have the comptech flywheel on his car? I remember his car was in the shop the same time that yours was.

Slimey

Just out of curiosity - I know you've posted before of taking the engine to 7400 too - how do you rev so high? I thought the fuel cut-off does its job at 7100 as programmed by the ECU.

Also, doesn't the HP curve go downhill beyond the 6900 redline?

I know -- a total aside...

drrfs

Allmotor_2000

Do you have a postable picture of one of your broken clutch pressure plates? It sounds like the problem we used to have with an old English road race car until we installed a better pressure plate. And we tried putting on double metal clips and still broke them. I think that the guys who are talking about lack of dampening in the pressure plate are on the right track. But increasing the dampening would seem to defeat at least some of the purpose of the Comptech flywheel, which eliminates the dampening of the stock flywheel. So the better way might be to find a better upgraded pressure plate -- which is what I'm going to do before I consider ordering my Comptech flywheel.

03 CLS 6sp
OZ Leggera's
Sway bars, ground control, adjustable camber, upgraded pads, lines