Just finished reading a article in Car&Driver, about the Mustang Cobra and its false hp numbers. Ford recalled their Mustangs I wonder if Acura will do the same for the CL-S. I mean Acura states that the CL-S is 260hp, but when the car is dynoed it only has 200hp....correct me if I'm wrong. I wonder if we have a legitmate case against Acura for false HP numbers?

 

I don't think they ever claimed 260HP at the wheels so you'd have no case with this reasoning. HP would need to be measured at the crank.

 

Since dyno's only give readings (please correct me if I am wrong) at the wheels.. how do they measure the hp at crank? Thanks.

 

No manufacturer posts their numbers at the wheel, it's always at the crank. What sounds better to you?
"3.2L V6 Type Engine with 260 Peak HP"
or
"3.2L V6 Type Engine with 260 Peak HP and if u act now, we'll even throw in 20% power loss!!"

 

They are recalling? What will Ford do in the recall?

 

Yeah, you pretty much have no case. The CL-S dynos at around 200 hp at the wheel which is around 260hp at the crank which is what they advertise. Actually, you don't have a case at all....

 

how is power loss on the FWD?

 

The reason the cobra owners got pissed is that in 99, both cobras and camaros/firebirds were rated near 320 hp. At the dyno, the cobras were all 15-20 hp down from the camaros/firebirds; the ford owners complained (rightfully).

 

Less than if the car was RWD.

 

juniorbean,
200 is 23% of 260. That doesn't seem reasonable to me. We actually might have a case.

 

A "recall" is ONLY when your life is in danger ! How does this endanger Rustange owners ?

 

How about false advertisement?

 

It is a well documented fact that gas engines are not %100 effecient. All car companies do the same shit.

 

They get bummed out; they drink more beer; they endanger their livers...

 

I know... and that's actually a good figure. Drivetrain loss in a FWD automatic usually averages 25%. You forget that Auto trannies have a higher percentage of power loss then manuals. Do a search on Dynos on this board... every single one reports between 22 and 25% drivetrain loss which means 260HP at the crank....

 

A recall is not only when your life is in danger..A car company can "recall" a car for anything that it needs to improve. As far as the 99 Cobra recall this was a design flaw that they needed to fix.

 

Where's the false advertising? Like ppl said here, the engine is rated at 260 by Acura and it's been dynoed at that, where's the false advertising? You mean to tell me you actually thought 260HP at the wheels?

 

These are how ALL Cars are Calc'ed. Crank #'s not @ the Wheels.

 

If I remember correctly, Ford got burned in two different ways:

1) Magazines started testing the '99 SVT Cobra, supposedly with 320HP, and the Ford-published 1/4 mile times against the Camaro SS and it was not even close.

2) Then people started complaining about the lack of power. Tests were done and the results were what we all now know.

I was one visit to the dealership away from buying an SVT in '99 when I postponed it because I was traveling too much and would not have been using the car at all.

How lucky...

 

That's not a recall. If the company said it was a recall, you are just being hoodwinked as a consumer.

We've been thru this before. You are confusing what a recall really is. A recall must be US Government santioned and must be for safety related reasons (per well-defined guidelines). There is no recall in this [Acura] situation because there is no imminent reason to proactively notify all Acura owners to return their vehicles to authorized service centers as soon as possible to correct a manfuacturer-induced error or defect that if left uncorrected will pose a serious [potential] hazard including loss of life or serious injury or significant damage to personal property!

Don't be so ridiculous thinking that the US Government can mandate Acura to recall vehicles because the horsepower is misstated, deceptive, or misleading. The US Government forces recalls on Firestone tires or Pintos that catch of fire.

Go to the official recalls websites for the US and the UK. Everything is safety related. There are thousands and thousands of mistakes made by companies; they all can't be recalls. Even on the local/US news, they announce recalls. Never, never do they speak of non-safety related issues. If the milk carton was mistakenly printed with "expires on 07-20-10", that a safety issue. You figure it out.

I will stand corrected when someone shows me proof that the US Government mandated that a company issue an official recall per prescribed guidelines that was not safety related.

Just to be clear. Hypothetical example. If I were a [lousy] company and I built AM/FM radios and I sold 100,000 to Best Buy and all of them said AM/PM on the label instead of AM/FM and all of the wrong frequencies, I would first fire the AM/FM Radio Product Manager, and then I would take existing inventory and send it back to the factory for relabeling (because the sticker cannot be replaced in the field). As for radios already sold to the consumer, I would either overlook the entire situation and look stupid or I would issue a "Recall" to consumers asking them to take their radio back to BB and trade for a corrected one. I would call it a recall so that I wouldn't look so stupid; recall has an official air to it; everyone else has recalls, why not me? In any case, they are neither required to notify consumers nor does the mislabel pose a significant health threat. The US Government would never force Acme Radio to call Mr. W. Coyote and tell him that he has a defective radio and that he should bring to back for a free replacement [on the house].

 

Comment:

1. The 260 HP is static HP, measured at the crank.

2. Be thankful it isn't the old days -- they would give HP figures for engines with the accessories removed, negative pressure on the exhaust, even the water pump removed. An analogy to the audio days of "Peak instantaneous power into 2 ohms" is close...

3. This is controversial -- however, Dynojet does NOT guarantee that its dyno figures are the same from one shop to another. The dyno jet is "inferring" HP by spinning-up a heavy rotating drum. Any parasitic losses in the drive train and wheel weight show up in the reading. The Dynojet's are really giving "dynamic" (inferred) HP.

4. The Comptech folks (and others) use dynos from other manufacturers. They get 208 HP at the front wheels. This gives a loss of 20%.

5. There is always going to be variations in engines in a given production run -- you guys race each other in stock cars (yes/no)? There is a difference is various cars (yes/no)?

BTW -- wait till we go metric and you see the engines rated in MKS units (I'm not going there now...)

 

Amen on the "operator experience"...

Even tire wear and the particular dyno...

Finally, when it comes to different sizes and makes of driven wheels, forget about it...

[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: EricL ]

 

Not true. A manufacturer can "recall" a vehicle for any reason. A government-mandated recall is for safety reasons.

 

If I recall correctly, a lot a cars in the sixties were advetised as having less HP than they actually did. For example, the 1967 Corvette Stingray 427 was advertised as having 430 hp when it actually had close to 600 hp! I believe this was done for insurance purposes.

 

The production headers did not meet the original design/performance spec. The recall replaced the headers and fixed the problem.

Mazda did something similar with the 2001 Miata. Claimed 155 hp. A change in emissions actually equipment lowered the number to 142. Mazda let customers return their cars for a full refund OR gave them a $500 gift certificate plus free maintenance.

 

hella what,
just wondering. I learned the 260 thing after i bought the car but not big deal because i makes sense. Thanks for the info in the FWD power loss.

 

It's all good. Hey, I have to say this... Given the way the CL is designed, if this thing were to be a RWD instead of FWD, we'd lose even more HP.... But that doesn't matter, so long as the torque is alright

 

Yes -- the insurance does like to look at power-to-weight. If it gets too low, they go nuts -- forget about 20 year olds!

They played both ends -- overstating horsepower on 197x cars with enough smog tubing to build a modern fuel injection system; then, under-rating big "rat-motor" specials to keep them insurable.

The figures almost meant nothing!

 

was a voluntary move by ford and not sanctioned by the government at all. ford did this before the gub-ment determined that the firestones were krap. the deal with gub-ment sanctioned recalls is that manufacturers try to issue the recalls of their own volition prior to being "asked" to do so by the feds. that way they can stay in some of the good graces of NHTSA. the other thing with recalls is that it's obviously a "bad word" so manufacturers like to use other pretty words if they know that NHTSA won't make them issue a recall. things like TSB, Internal Service Message, Regional Service Message and the ever popular Owner Notification Program don't instill the type of explorer-rollover terror that the word "recall" does.

 

My god, u pulled this topic outta mothballs, sheet must be bored

 

more like friggin insomnia kickin in....

its like the less sleep i get...the better my memory gets and the more intelligent i "seem"

 

200 HP at the wheels is good for a 0-60 time of 5.9. Stop yer whining. You test drove the car before you bought it.

Everyone knows the HP is measured at the crank. Besides the torque is what matters down low.