Hi, I'm new to the forum. I finally have the means to replace my 10-year-old Infiniti G20 and was convinced that I wanted a rear-wheel-drive or all-wheel-drive sport sedan with a manual tranny. I was seriously considering a BMW 325i until I sat in a TSX at the Chicago auto show. I've owned an Integra GSR in the past and really liked it, so I know I won't hate another front drive car.

I'd appreciate some feedback from people who've owned both RWD and FWD or AWD cars. Is it worthe the extra 5k-7k for the Bimmer or an AWD Audi A3?

Thanks very much for the help,

Cyril

 

Worth it? No.

However, you have to evaluate what you're looking for in a car.

As a daily driver, all three are about the same.

On a balls out sports car, RWD is most desirable.

AWD is great in poor weather conditions and has some potential in a sport sedan.

Now with regards to the BMW or Audi, the extra cost just to get the AWD or RWD is not worth it. There are equally good AWD and RWD options at the TSX price range. You'll lose some "luxury", features, and reliability, but not any more so than you would if you went with the BMW or Audi at the higher price.

 

G20 eh? How has that been for you?

I was looking at an '01 before coming across the TSX.

 

i dont know.... i had a is300 back in the day very different than my tsx... feels wierd being pulled in a fwd i like the feeling of peeling out fish tailing in the rain in rwd but im getting used to fwd but still not comfy yet and its been a year...
but i love the shape and interior of the tsx over a lot of cars that are out and that are coming out. but dont go by what people tell you, everyone has their own opinion you got to go out and test drive one and really rag on it to see if it can handle your driving style...just my

 

I agree with CGTSX2004. If you are planning a few track days, or are a real hardcore driver, RWD is ideal. Having said that, I firmly believe that untill your driving skils are at a "pro" level, you can make a FWD car like the TSX go just as fast as a RWD car of comparable specs. This is shown everytime the SCCA Touring cars run.

You'll also have an easier time reaching your limits in a good FWD car than a RWD car. For most people starting out in autocross, or some other beginning form of motorsport, there are so many things to learn and concentrate on, that the choice of drivetrain should be secondary.

if you are only looking for a dailry driver and will never see a track, IMO there is NO performance advantage to RWD that can be legally demonstrated on public roads.

 

I miss driving RWD.

 

Well, ahem, I do drive RWD....

 

true...

with respect to awd cars, the subaru line-up is worth looking into.

 

i'll agree with the above posts. go test drive the car and do your homework.

everyone bestows the virtues of hi powered RWD, in reality most can't handle the car worth crap. personally, having driven my bro's WRX and friend's G35 - i'd take AWD any day in the northeast seasons.

is the bimmer and audi worth the 5k - 7k?? well, that's why i am driving the TSX.

 

i don't think you'll have a problem with the fwd set-up of the tsx.

apparently, from what i've been told, integra's have go-kart-like abilities. very fun to drive...

 

I too had an Integra and the handling on it was pretty decent. The TSX is easily one of THE best FWD sedans on the market today. Many people have compared it to the Prelude in terms of handling feel. That's a hell of a complement for the TSX.

 

yes...

i'd love to take a prelude and integra out through some twisties...

i've always wanted, and still want, a 2001 prelude 5mt.

 

A3 2.0 only comes in FWD. if u want quattro u have to step up to the 3.2

 

RWD cars' handling characteristics do not make RWD any faster than FWD, despite popular misinformation. Uneducated rear wheel purists will sneer at me, but the truth is that oversteer isn't any better than understeer for taking turns fast. What makes front-drive cars slower in practice is torque steer -- which is minimal in the TSX, because it doesn't make enough torque and its drivetrain is well-designed. As you get into more powerful regimes, you do have to move to RWD to kill torque steer and finally, in really high-powered cars, to AWD so you can get all that power to the ground. So, if the higher power and torque of the BMW or A3 aren't going to convert you, the rear-wheel drive shouldn't either, from a performance perspective. And if you already know you don't hate the feel of a front driver, which is genuinely different, there's no reason to pay extra and/or lose features to get the rear-wheel drive.

Consider too that FWD will be significantly safer and easier to drive in the snow or ice than RWD although good yaw control almost eliminates this consideration.

And remember when you buy a BMW 3 series, you are telling the world "I have no imagination." (apologies to Jeremy Clarkson) The TSX is the only car I'd consider buying that I don't see on the road every day. That was a big selling point for me 8-)

 

Ironically enough I just moved from a G20 to a TSX -- don't know about you, but I don't miss the Infiniti at all. The TSX has way more power, is smoother, more luxurious, and I think it handles better than the G20 -- even though Nissan made a big production back in the day about how much development they put into G20's suspension. (They tested it at Nuremburgring and it was the most sophisticated suspension ever put in a compact, etc. etc.)

I have also owned 320i, so I considered a 300-series Bimmer, along with the A4, the small Lexus, and even a Subaru Legacy GT before realizing none of them could touch the TSX's combination of value, poshness, handling, and power.

I hope you like your TSX as much as I like mine. Speaking of auto shows -- I didn't think I wanted Navi until I saw it at the Portland Auto Show -- it sold itself, so now I get to hear a female voice tell me what to do at every turn!!

 

Just like having your wife in the car, but without the extra weight!

 

Hi Cyrill

Excellent first post.

Let me put it to you this way: My 05' Accord six speed is my first front driver, and although I have owned many high performance rear drivers, I have absolutley no regrets. Along with the Accord my primary drivers are a Lightning pickup and corvette, and I certainly don't consider the Honda to be at a disadvantage because of FWD. It does exhibit a somewhat different feel, but nothing bothersome during spirited driving. I'm sure I would feel somewhat different if the Accord had much more than it's 240 hp, but would not have any trouble buying another front driver. Its amazing how some of my friends claim they would never buy a front driver, claiming a rear driver a better driving experience, but have NEVER tracked a car and in many cases lack the ability to drive the car to its full potential. Enjoy the TSX, I'm sure you will find it's drivetrain layout not a liability.

Terry

 

regarding everything said above, including the extra expense and reliabilty issues of the Audi and BMW.

The TSX from a G20 is a logical progression (I owned a 1996 G20 -- the first generation before the G20 got heavy and slow). The G20 handled well, with its suspension -- one of the first multi-links in a FWD, if I remember correctly. The manual allowed you to crank every last drop of power out of the engine... It was tough to find a comparable car at that time. The TSX is better in every way, but it has the similar handling characteristics of the G20; if you are looking for similar handling to the G20, the TSX is a great next car.

 

I'm not knocking FWD's but nothing beats the feeling of a big engine PUSHING you instead of pulling you.

Too much gas on a RWD, the rear gets a little squirrely...go into a corner too hot, watch the rear end fly out all the while your turning the wheel and letting off the gas (no brake) to straighten her out.

When I had my C36, it had no traction control or LSD. It was a pure RWD car. Man was it fun. Sliding around a corner. Driving in the snow.

A RWD car with no power is pretty boring.

 

Before gettin my '06 TSX, I used to own a '99 G20.... while TSX is obviously a more refined, luxurious car, I'd be lying if I said that it handles better than the G20. Then again, I had Pirellis on the G20 and the TSX still got those nasty stock tires that it came with. I wonder how much would the handling and the braking improve if I changed only the tires....

 

Wow, thanks for all the great comments. I drove the BMW last weekend and didn't notice a big difference. Makes sense that you would need to push the car pretty hard, or be talking about a lot of horsepower to really feel the difference in handling and induce torque steer.

I really like the way my '95 G20 handles, so yeah, I think the TSX is a logical next step.

Any comments on the A3 2.0 vs TSX? The DSC tranny sounds really cool. I'm going to test drive one this weekend. I can't find a TSX with a 6-speed in the Chicago area to test drive, so it's going to be hard to compare apples to apples.

Thanks again,

Cyril

 

Hold out and make sure you test a TSX 6 spd MT before you purchase (unless you are just ordering the TSX). The TSX's 6spd gearbox is awesome, one of the best on the market.

We test drove an A3; it is a refined little car. Great, huge sunroof, and a quality interior. The handling was also refined. I would be hesistant to purchase one because of reliability and long-tem maintenance costs.

 

Actually, I test drove the A3 pretty extensively when I was looking to trade in my 04 AT TSX and while I was impressed with the power of the motor, I was annoyed with how small the interior was, how poor the linkage of the shifter was, and how poor some of the interior material quality was. Handling wise, it is tuned to understeer much more than the TSX and was very susceptible to torque steer.

Overall, it's a decent car at a $25k price tag, but anything more than that and the car is a waste of money because there are much better options out there.

 

First of all let me state that I agree with you on your 2nd point. FWD is infinitely more controllable and much more comfortable to drive.

Know that RWD oversteer can be better than FWD understeer. Understeer in a corner and you will 'plow' and lose your line and it is very hard to regain control. Oversteer on a RWD will allow it to regain control with throttle input. That is why a controlled drift is actually faster around a corner than good line.

The bad part about RWD oversteer is that you can spin out easily.



That last statement was probably true when the car first came out, but the TSX is a dime a dozen too.

 

Actually, given that most drivers are not well trained enough to know to stay on the throttle in a traction loss situation, FWD is safer for 95% of the drivers out there. Most drivers will immediately lift the throttle the moment a slide begins to happen, which can cause snap oversteer in a RWD car. In a FWD car, the same reaction elicits a much more controllable response to the average driver.

 

Understeer is easier to recover from than oversteer, particularly for inexperienced drivers -- you just lay off the throttle, and don't have to provide compensating steering input in the opposite direction. This is why most non-sports cars are tuned to understeer. It does require you to slow down more, but the truly fastest way to go around a corner is of course neither understeer nor oversteer but maintaining traction the whole way around.

 

Actually, 14-18% slip angle in oversteer is the fastest way through a corner in most cars...

 

I firmly believe that in a 4d sedan under 250hp, if you are driving so that you can feel a significant difference between FWD and RWD, you are probably driving like an asshat and should crash at any moment. Quite simply, for 99% of the driving everyone does, unless they are balls-out flying everywhere, the difference is negligible. Especially since I see you are from Chicago, which is almost all flat and almost no winding roads. FWD and RWD will be no different cruising through the suburbs.

 

The latest R&T did an AWD comparison (March 2006). I have not read the article yet, but you could check that out if you are thinking AWD. Might help you in making your decision or help you decide what you want etc. If someone already said this,......sorry haha.

 

>Know that RWD oversteer can be better than FWD understeer
No matter in the situation of understeer or oversteer, normal drivers will lay off the throttle and most of them even step on the brake. What will be the result?

Understeer - the car will slow down and get back on line.
Oversteer - you will probably do a 180 turn.

To handle understeer, it is just a normal reaction. Oversteer, you need special training.

That's why the repair guys told me to put 2 new tires on the back if I have to change only 2 tires. Reason? To avoid oversteer.


>14-18% slip angle in oversteer is the fastest way through a corner.
Yes, if you are a pro. And I believe in normal day driving, they won't do it.

 

Negative. Any noticeable amount of oversteer will severely hurt your acceleration coming out of the corner -- watch a race carefully and you can see this in action. If two guys go into a corner and the one in the lead oversteers, the other guy will overtake him shortly afterwards.