Brad

Spiegel's (long-time German magazine) Web site has an article that acknowledges "bad grades for German cars". For those who speak German, check out this link: Schlechte Noten für deutsche Autos

The article references an article from the BBC, whereby they compared 138 models. The VW Golf and Polo were rated poor. The worst car in some other category was the Audi TT. Both BMW and Mercedes were only average--in other words, mediocre.

The best cars were Asian: Honda, Hyundai, Lexus, Mazda, Nissan und Toyota. Even Ford rated "good" (which at one time was only average). No mention of Opel was in the article.

fdl

Bad or good for what...reliability?

What a sec..Hyundai??? (credibility just went out the window)

TSXinCA

I believe Hyundai's quality ratings have drastically improved over the last 10 years or so. They offer terrific warranties, and their cars actually look pretty nice. Would never buy one if I could afford better, but for the price I think they're pretty great cars.

fdl

No doubt they have come very far, but that doesnt make them "good" at all.

Sarlacc

shockinly enough hyundai has been making a car people are calling pretty reliable. Granted youll never see me buying one, but good for them if they got their shit together. the newest tiburon is pretty attractive (thank you pinaferera sp?)

Most german cars are average or slighty above. Id say in order of most to least it would be BMW, Mercedes and Audi/VW at the bottom.

Doesnt mean the cars are bad, all the title says is Bad notes/grades for german cars. They are not perfect and in truth they have gotten worse. But they are still better then many, and i get back into bmw again in the future with out a thought.

Im not a big mercedes fan ( though i love the SL) but its sad when every 9 of 10 new mercs i see on the road everyday have burnt out tail lights, and when i say new i mean dealer tags still.

But also, most people nowadays lease these more expensive cars. They are being designed to be turned in every 3-4 years for a new one.

Its sad but thats what happens when you drop inflating costs of materials and labor to still turn a huge profit.

Even honda/acura has suffered from this with a lot of their american made cars. and you can flame me all you want but i used to sell hondas and hang out with the techs and everyone of them said the old japanese models were bulletproof compared to the newer ones. Doesnt mean they are bad cars but overall quality has just dropped slighty. Some people call it "thin walling."

Of course some of this is also to blame on new technologies of which the majority are electronic. And electronics are never truly "reliable" (specially in german cars) but most of these new features always debut in the more expensive cars first before they trickle. and these new technologies with all their bugs and stuff add to the decreasing reliablity.

So many factors to this. it can go on and on.

fdl

If there is data to suggest that hyundai is reliable, then please post. From what I can tell the only good thing to be said about a Korean car rigt now is they are very cheap.

(New tiberon looks much much better than the old one, they are on the right track for sure).

larchmont

I never pass up a chance to see what kind of dumbass thing you get from those free translations on Google, so I googled the text of this piece. Here it is, for your reading enjoyment, uncensored (you know, on second thought, these free translations don't suck totally although they do look pretty funny):

Notes bad RELIABILITY for German cars

Must the German car signs fear around its good call? In a current reader inquiry, Volkswagens, BMW, audi cut and Mercedes with regard to reliability so badly from like never before.

Recovered bad notes: the VW PoloLondon - after a report of the British BBC a survey of the product magazine has "Which?" yield that it badly stands around the reliability of German cars. At the inquiry, 80,000 readers took part. 138 different models were compared together. According to BBC, gulf and Polo were classified the reliability both Volkswagen models as needy. The sports car audi TT had received the worst notes in this category. Also BMW and Mercedes reached only Durchschnittswerte.

"Once were German cars confessed for high quality", quotes the BBC a colleague of the magazine. Yet now the German limped afterwards. Winners of the reader inquiry were the Asian cars. Honda, Hyundai, Lexus, Mazda, Nissan and Toyota were in the reliability category Top. Aufgeholt has also Ford. Otherwise only on the average, the US sign had been classified this time predominantly as "well".

zircon

Sarlacc: I agree 100% with your opinion. I have had 2 minor problems with my 99 Accord (both electonic), but none with our 2000 and then 2002 CR-Vs from Japan. I badger my Honda dealer about differences between British/American/Canadian produced vehicles and Japanese ones, and he doesn't like to hear it. When we got the CR-V I told him I would accept it only if the VIN started with a J (rather than whatever the British number is). I also think that Honda's tendency to minimize electronic clutter (and cost) saves them from future problems in quality.

zircon

Hyundai may be benefitting from buying Japanes designs. They bought (or otherwise came to agreement) with Mitsubushi to sell the Mitsu Expo (Eagle Summit/ Dodge Colt wagon in the states between 93-95) in Europe and South America (where I have seen them in recent years). Badging says Hyundai but design is identical to Mitsu. Wonder where they are made?

finalheaven

My friend purchased the 03 hyundai tiburon. I think the car is not bad at all. Compared to what they used to be, the car seems pretty solid. And despite the car only having 170hp 7.1 0-60 and 15.6 1/4 mile. That is pretty good.

Despite the fact that im korean however, i NEVER EVER intend to drive a hyundai.

Brad

Thanks for the funny translation!

Some points of clarification on a few translation items:

call should be reputation

note or notes should be grade or score

needy should be poor

Durchschnittswerte should be average (literally through-cut-worth)

sign should be brand

"well" should be "good"

larchmont

Nice job, Brad! Although I must say I liked it better their way!

It really is a lot of fun to see how those translations come out. It's a totally guaranteed big laugh -- -- any time. When you come across any foreign stuff on the net, in any language, and if you have a couple of minutes, try copying it and translating it -- then laugh at the result.

I wonder if we can conclude that it says something about German culture that the word they use for average is "cut-worth." This would tend to make most people who are "average" at something (which is most of us, at most things) feel that they are of inadequate worth. That's pretty severe.

I'm allowed to say stuff like that since I was born in Germany.

Brad

The dictionary definition of average isn't very impressive either. It's mediocre.

The simplest average is the half-way point between two values, right? Durch is through. Schnitt is cut. You cut something through the middle to find the average. Whack, whack, whack!

I've tried the translation utilties before. They are fun. I usually use those for Russian-to-English translations. What's even funnier is to translate from one language to a second language to a third (like English) using the utilities!

phile

HAHAHA...so I'm not the only one who notices that. VW has that problem too, every 3rd one I see has a burnt out tail light.

TSXautoXer

Hmm, tell me about it. My sister's VW new bug went through 3 headlights, 1 side blinker in 2 years. My friend's 2003 Audi A4 has burnt out tail lights in less than a year. Germans are really good at structural things, like suspension and chassis design. But they really don't know how to design some reliable electronics.

Brad

Now get this: My 13 year old Honda Accord has all its original factory lights! I might have replaced only one of the headlight doo-dads (filament tubes?) about 6 years ago. I haven't even had a taillight burn out!!!!

On the other hand, my first car, a Datsun, burned out bulbs left and right. It had to have been electrical stability problems. What else could it be but severe stress--like surges, spikes, or something--on the bulbs?

fdl

The germans import their bulbs from Korea

vitocorleone

There's nothing wrong with owning a German car... as long as it comes with a lifetime warranty and someone to sit and wait while it gets repaired.

Brad

In one of my local newspapers, I remember reading a quote from a Mercedes owner. Whenever she returned from a long trip, say 2 or 3 weeks, her Honda Civic always started up fine, but the Mercedes always required service help to get it started again. In fact, she bought the Civic as a backup because of her finicky tempermental Mercedes.

Who says Mercedes are fashionable and loaded with status? Are breakdowns fashionable, cool, chic, and something everyone should be envy of?

93Kewl

Just by making this statement probably means: a) you can't afford one, b) you've been asleep for the last 30-some-odd years, c) both of the above.

To put things in perspective: Do you think Honda Civic LX owners are saying the same about an Acura?

Sarlacc

Well aside from a) ill sadly agree with you.

Its sad, ive never liked mercs and now living in LA where i see them left and right itws pathetic. The people driving them are all young pricks who just have them for status whether then can really afford them or not. its all amg, brabus, s600 this and that everywhere, and they arent even nice people, and certainly nice or good drivers.

I think its sad cause i think mercedes are over priced pieces of shit ( except the SL which of course has no stick shift) Ive always thought mercedes were crap for you paid for them. Id much rather have a bmw. But of course that is why we have choices.

If could afford what amg and brabus and all those shit machines cost id rather be driving a porshce or ferrari or any other car for that price. just my 2 cents

larchmont

Hey, Kewi -- this is not you at your best. You're taking Brad way too literally.

If you'd given it more than 4 seconds of thought, you would have realized that what he meant was that in his humble opinion, there is no rational justification for the (very well-known and undeniable) fact that MB's are "fashionable and loaded with status" in the minds of most of the public.

BTW I could afford one, I've been asleep for only about one-third of the last 30-odd years, and I didn't buy one.

By the way, Kewi, how can you be calling the last 30 years "odd"? What have you been smoking? For you to be calling the last 30 years "odd," you must not have been reading the papers or not watching enough TV or something.

Brad

I don't know what Civic owners say about Acura. A few I've met were totally UNaware that Honda makes the Acura. In fact, one Acura Integra owner I met was totally aghast when I told her that Honda made her Integra, and that her Integra is but another Honda overseas.

Regarding affordability, I'm not sure I agree that the statement necessarily means you cannot afford one. It would make me question whether an individual made a smart decision or an emotional decision--the two decision types are very different. In the case of a MB, the two decision types are at odds. A smart person would know better than to buy into mediocrity. A smart person would research the matter. On the other hand, an emotional person has to load up on the crass materialism, overstated designs, brand label identity, and pursue that marketer's dream facade of achieving class or status. But it's like that child's fairy tale of the emperor having no clothes and not realizing it.

93Kewl

Larch,

I guess what I am saying is that MB got where they are today status-wise for some reason. Perhaps after decades of building some of the finest cars on the planet? Heck, they were building solid, high quality cars before Acura was a twinkle in someone's eye! That being said, MB's reliability was been well publicized moving downhill. I know this, you know this, the rest of the buying public MAY know this. But, lets give the manufacturer some credit shall we? I know that even sitting in the low-end C230/240 you see the craftmanship and quality of the interior. I didn't actually take one the road but, I sure it would have been a fine ride. A good friend of mine has a CLK which a beauty of a car.

I hope you are not implying that the consumers of MB products are not "smart" and only purchase the car for emotional reasons. I can understand the emotional part as a car purchase should also contain a fair amount of "emotion".

I guess I equate MB to the New York Yankees (even though I can't stand the Yankees). They deserve the credit for what they have done in the past, what they offer now, and what they are capable of offering in the future - even if the current product has or has had some "kinks" in the road.

finalheaven

And since when is being emotional a bad thing. If people were not emotional a lot of things would not have changed in this world. As for cars, i bet an emotional person buying a benz, even though it goes to the shop a couple of times would be MUCH happier then buying a car without any emotional attachment what so ever. I feel sorry for you brad for not buying a car without any emotions involved...

tsp159

I have a 1989 Honda Accord made in Japan (JHMCA55) and have put almost 200k miles on it since new. Although the A/C had several problems, these came from low quality repair jobs and not OEM defects. Even today the car still starts every time and runs like new. Even though it shows its age (loose suspension, worn interior) I am still confident that it will keep running until the crappy Keihin carburetor finally gives up the ghost. Then, I'll put a Weber 32/36 DGV on top and drive it another 200k.

Brad

MB's reliability and reputation is mediocre or worse. To pay big bucks for mediocrity is inconsistent with a smart decision. Perhaps rather than using the word "smart", "rational" would be more appropriate. Instead of "emotional", how about "irrational"?

I've worked all of my professional life in Silicon Valley, a culturally and ethnically very diverse area. I've made the acquaintance of a wide range of people from all around the world. I've met some (a minority) who are thoroughly obsessed with things for the sake of appearance. I've worked with and for some of these individuals. Some of these individuals, whom I have personally known, are so obsessed with brands, status, and the sake of appearance they are very self-conscious about not appearing in public in a BMW or MB. Otherwise, they feel they lose face--even before total strangers. And yet, over and over, I've heard these same individuals complain about why maintenance or repairs for their BMW or MB costs at least $1000 everytime it goes into the shop--and that was a few years ago. (That's the gist of what some have told me.)

If BMW's and MBs are so great, so fantastic, so everything, why should repairs and maintenance be so expensive? If they are of such high quality, why are repairs and maintenance so expensive? Are the cars, their engineering, and their components so inefficiently executed that they are troublesome and expensive to maintain?

larchmont

Hey Brad -- I sure showed him a thing or too, huh?

SPUDMTN

Well...it would make sense to me that repairs and maintenance are so expensive because the components are of such high quality. Aren't high quality materials generally more expensive to replace? :P

Anyway, I really don't think that's the reason behind the German's high maintenance costs--I just wanted to be a smart-aleck I guess that the German luxury-car ownership-experience is all about excess. I wonder how much it costs MB or BMW to make a $500 part?


SPUDMTN

93Kewl

Brad,

You know what's funny? For every point you bring up about Mercedes the same can be said about Acura. I bet you somewhere on some Chevy or Kia, or <insert brand here> internet forum, people are asking why service and parts are more expensive for the "upscale" Japanese cars than the cars they are driving. Everything is relative.

Plus don't give me alot of malarchy about how Japanese cars don't breakdown, or "reliability" is so high that you never need to spend money on the car.

Look, my parents have owned a Mercedes Benz and I have owned an Acura and Honda. If you are gonna sit there and tell me that the fit and finish, the quality of leather, etc is the same between an Acura (high end or not) and MB? I am gonna say you need to open your eyes. As nice as the TSX is on the inside, sit yourself inside a C230 or Audi, whatever, and you instantly see the difference. Is there a difference between a TSX and a Honda Accord? Or even better....a Pontiac Grand Prix? Of course there is!

MB Reliabilty? Of course, it needs to improve. I am not going to sit here and defend their track record on that. You assume that everyone that buys a MB will have a problem with their car. Not true. Is the percentage greater than other cars that you will have a problem? Yes. But you know what the percentage that you will have a problem with an Acura is higher than that of owning a Lexus or Buick. What do you have to say about that? Are Buick owners saying why pay money for a "mediocre" product?

No rational explaination? So if it is well known and undeniable, how did it get this way? Magic? Or, perhaps all the rich people got together many years ago and voted on which car should have "prestige" status. Hmmmm.... You guys give no credit where credit is due.

finalheaven

chrisalberts

Guys,

Different cars have different strengths and weaknesses. Some car manufacturers do things better than others. If you live with a BMW (or Porsche or MB, probably, but I know BMWs) as time goes on you appreciate the engineering and the functionality of the car more and more. They are beautifully built, but they are prone to problems, and yes the parts cost more (recently had my door panel replaced under warranty and it was $835 - dealer broke it incidentally, not a failure). It's my opinion that BMW doesn't appear to closely manage the incoming quality from its suppliers and that is the source of many problems. Japanese cars (often) don't have the thoroughness of engineering design, but the execution, parts quality control and thus reliability is superb. Honda has a tradition of excellent engine building and that's part of why we're considering a TSX as a car for my wife to replaced her totalled Audi S4 Avant (can't afford a new S4, as they're $50k+). We're also considering A4s, 325s and MB C230Ks. We may pick the Acura (test drive tonight), or we may not (it's current favorite) and that will be based on a bunch of factors. One other thing to note, particularly about MB and BMW is that many innovations (ABS, traction control etc) appeared on these high end German cars first. There's a cost to doing that kind of development, and part of it is reliability. It's easier to come in after the fact and make a copycat car (I'm thinking the original Lexus LS400 here) without innovating, just improving and having superb execution.

Sorry for the ramble, but these things do tend to turn in to pissing contests, and there's really no need. No car is perfect, people pick the mix of good and bad things that suits them. End of story. You can't criticise someone for buying a TSX over a 325i, or vice versa.

Btw - although we think of VW as an "import" mfr with a niche market, they're just about the biggest car company in the world - perhaps it's harder to maintain quality over that volume.

C.

93Kewl

chris,

Very well put, especially the part about most of the major things we take for granted today on cars (abs, esp, etc).

larchmont

Nice write-up, some great and interesting points. However, IMO, not all of them. First of all, I guess that thing up there applies to you and many others who had BMW's. It didn't apply to me -- the subpar reliability was a severe turn-off, so much so that it made me an Acura guy. At least until they get their act together. Part of the reason that I talk all over the place about their subpar reliability is in the grandiose hope that our voices will help get the word out there, and that ultimately it'll spur those manufacturers to do what they have to do.


IMO these points are severe inditements of those brands. BMW maybe doesn't closely manage the incoming quality from its suppliers? Thanks for pointing that out, Chris. I don't think this possibility is common knowledge. If it's true, it could explain a lot. Well, BMW, get your ass on the stick (pardon the mixed metaphor).

And that final point reallly isn't very good. Sure, it's easier to come in after and improve an innovation than to do the innovation in the first place. But that's not excuse at all for the innovator not to be improving it too, or at least following along. I must say, this one point is a real stretch in trying to defend or explain the German brands' deficiencies.

But still -- good points, well done -- Thanks!

Brad

Here's an English language version of the same article from the New Zealand Herald:

German-made cars take a wrong turn

teombe

Actually, as one of BMW's suppliers, I can assure you that a good many of the parts they get also end up in Acuras in one form or another. Where BMW falls on its face is the second point you mention (the thoroughness of engineering design). Basically, BMW's, VW's, and MB's implement their electrical systems in completely different ways from their asian counterparts. This is why it is much easier for VW to implement 'little features' like one-touch windows on every car they make than it is for Honda.

Case in point: The MY2008 7-series cars have been approved to be designed around a highly advanced electrical network architecture called FlexRay (www.flexray.com). While FlexRay can suport 5Mbps effective transfer rates (as opposed to the standard CAN bus's 500Kbps), giving BMW the freedom to connect more systems to others, it is also a risky proposal to completely redesign an entire car's electronics architecture for a 2007 launch. The benefit for BMW lies in the fact that they can utilize fewer expensive sensors per car, and provide luxury features for cheaper. In this specific case, they will cut the number of gyro sensors from 3 (Nav, alarm, and DSC) to 1, saving them $40 per car - among other things.

Now, they will be using the next-generation X5 as a 'guinea pig', by implementing some of the active front steering network with FlexRay with a CAN backup if something goes horribly wrong.. But, believe me, they will have some hiccups on the 7-series, and they will be seen by most of the members on this board as reliability problems. The reward is worth the risk for these companies....

Toyota and Honda would rather follow and only bet on the "sure thing". That's just the way the auto industry is.

Brad

That's an excellent point about suppliers. Independent suppliers often supply car components to multiple manufacturers. ALSO, competing car companies often supply each other with components.

It should come as no surprise that GM has supplied BMW with automatic trannies, for example. Both GM and Renault have supplied Volvo with engines, but now under Ford ownership, I have no idea who supplies Volvo with engines. GM is a major supplier of parts to competitors, from engines to trannies, to simple plastic parts like brake lights.

Nearly all the major car companies supply each other with parts. Afterall, parts is parts.

Who knows, there may be a bit of a Yugo in your next car. Ya never know!

TSXinCA

I couldn't agree with you more, autoXer. I had a 2001 Jetta GLX for 2 years. Supension, chassis, tranny etc all GREAT. Only 175 hp w/ the VR6, but in that tiny little frame that thing jammed. Handled well, very fun to drive w/ VR6 manual. Never had any problems with the engine or drivetrain. HOWEVER, I had one trim or electonic problem after another the entire time I owned it. At any given time I was frustrated by at least one problem, usually more than one. And just when one got fixed, something else would happen. Here is the list of problems I had, all in just under 2 years:

Replaced CD changer TWICE
Replaced window regulators TWICE
cupholder broke
center console lid broke
1 headlight died
BOTH brake lights died
at least 1/2 dozen loud rattles, all over the interior cabin
"check coolant" light kept coming on for no reason
power door locks malfuntioned intermittently
steering wheel controls for stereo malfuntioned intermittently

Most people I know with VW's had similar problems, altho not to the same high degree that I did. Seem to be much more problems with Jetta than Beetle or Passat, but I know of several people with those models who have had problems too. I will never guy another German car, they are just not made well IMO. VW'S ARE RATTLE TRAPS!!!

On the flip side, I know many, many people with Japanese cars (specifically Honda & Toyota) and very few of them have any problems. No car is perfect, but the statistics speak for themselves!!

MotownTSX

Really? When was this???

teombe

The current (1997-2003) 5-series automatic transmission is a General Motors HydraMatic EL540 (or something like that). It can also be found in the Cadillac CTS.