waTSX

Yep, know right where it is. Sounds good. I'll be at the school at 10:00.

vidgamer

They bear more resemblance than "stock car" racing. :-)

It still might be interesting to look at what each car has in the way of mods and restrictions....

There's a story on the 'net (so it must be true!), and maybe you can find it with a Google. Supposedly, Dodge set up two Daytonas, one with FWD the other with RWD, and raced them to try to determine just how close they could get a FWD to compete with a RWD. As I recall, the difference in track times was so slight that unless you were at the highest level of performance, it was negligible. (Certainly for most of us!) The biggest difference was that the FWD was always working the front tires, and they had to be changed a lot more often, while the RWD shared the wear between the front and rear, and didn't need as many changes. Well, that's the way I remembered it anyway; maybe y'all better find the article...

Of course, FWD does drive a bit differently than RWD, but I would write that off as a matter of taste. If you prefer RWD handling, then that might be enough right there to choose certain cars over others.

fedlawman

If you don't want to banter with BMW owners, then stay away from threads titled, "TSX vs. 325i."

fedlawman

It still might be interesting to look at what each car has in the way of mods and restrictions....

Here are the basics: http://www.world-challenge.com/carfacts.html

And the specifics: http://www.world-challenge.com/competitors/vts.html

Supposedly, Dodge set up two Daytonas, one with FWD the other with RWD, and raced them to try to determine just how close they could get a FWD to compete with a RWD. As I recall, the difference in track times was so slight that unless you were at the highest level of performance, it was negligible.

Yeah, that sounds about right. I'm no expert, but basically my understanding is this - a FWD car will use more front tires and more brakes on a race track. But to understand how a car negotiates a corner, you have to understand the "friction circle." I'll try to keep it simple - every tire has a maximum level of grip. Until this level is reached, a tire can influence the motion of the car. If the level is exceeded, the tire loses it's grip and spins. It's called a friction "circle" because a tire can grip equally in every direction (forwards, backwards and sideways). In other words, a tire grips equally when accelerating, braking and cornering.

So let's say your tires have 5 "units" of grip. You're approaching a corner and threshold braking (max braking on the threshold of skidding) to scrub your speed down so you're using all 5 units on the front tires and no units on the rear tires. This is the same for both FWD and RWD. Since you're using all your units, you have none left for turning (if you tried to turn now, you would induce understeer). So you get your speed down before entering the corner and get back on even throttle gently to get the car neutral (you are momentarily using no units). You turn the wheel and enter the corner using 4 units of grip (lateral acceleration) on the front outside tire, 2.5 units of grip on the rear outside tire, 2 units of grip on the inside front tire, and 1 unit of grip on the inside rear tire (some cars will lift the inside rear wheel during cornering, a true "no unit" situation). Again, there remains no difference between FWD and RWD at this point). Now you hit the apex and begin simultaneously unwinding straightening the front wheels and smoothly applying power - and here's where the difference appears. On the FWD car, the driven wheel (outside front) is currently using 4 "units" to get through the corner, which leaves you only 1 unit for forward acceleration. The harder you are turning and trying to accelerate, the greater the "slip angle" (simplistically, the angle between the direction the tire is facing and the direction of sideways forces acting on that tire while turning - the faster you try to go through a corner, the greater the slip angle) and thus, the more "units" you are using (forward + lateral in this case). On the RWD car, the driven wheel (outside rear) is only using 2.5 units (it has a much smaller slip angle), leaving 2.5 units for forward acceleration. If you have a limited slip differential (such as my E30 has), then power is applied differently to the inside and outside rear tires, to more efficiently apply power based on the amount of available grip each driven tire has.

The driving technique used by racers to accomodate FWD's increased front tire slip angles is to brake later, turn-in later (often with left foot braking), and apex later. This allows the FWDer to get the front wheels pointed forward as soon as possible (thus reducing the slip angle and freeing up "units") so power can be applied. Phew, I hope that made sense (I didn't intend to get into it this much).

It can be a fast way through a corner, but it's harder on the brakes and front tires. It's the only way to minimize the inherent understeer of a FWD car, and in my opinion, it's also a "less instinctive" way to drive, more work for the driver, and not nearly as much fun on a twisty canyon road.

Sorry for the length, hope that helps.

Brian

Nikki

lol right.

vidgamer

That was a pretty good explanation!

About the links, the technical specs kinda went over my head. OH well!

hans007

wait so i have to buy an e90 325i to participate in a 325i vs tsx discussion on a tsx board no less?

as i've said i've driven an e46. i havent driven an e90 which from what i've read is about the same as an e46 if you get the sport package.

what is wrong with that, i have a life, id ont have time to go test drive all the cars on earth just to participate in forum discussions to feel good about my car.

all i'm saying is if its anything like an e46, i dont think its worth the extra scratch.

seriously i can smell the bmw snob, through the internet even from you too. i'm sorry i wasn't apparently born with bmw e90 buying pedigree so i can sayturn my nose up in every e90 vs tsx discussion.

ok and well i havent driven an e90. but i'm assuming many of you have. does an e90 drive that much better than an e46? i'm assuming a lot of you have driven an e90 i'd like to know your opinions.

fedlawman

Relax hans, and keep the snarky comments to yourself, OK? There's no need for you to call people names.

In post #179, you said, "this being a tsx forum, i am amazed how many bmw owners are here...i do not go on bmwforums to make me feel good about my car."

I'm a sports car enthusiast. In my life so far, I've owned an Alfa Romeo, a couple of CRX Si's, a Nissan Sentra SE-R, a Miata, a TSX, and of course, a BMW 325is. I'm an intermediate driver with some knowledge, training and experience driving cars in emergency / high performance environments.

Since I am an enthusiast, I have an opinion about pretty much any car you'd care to name, and if you ask, I'm happy to tell you my opinion because I enjoy discussing cars with other enthusiasts.

I've never uttered a single negative remark about the TSX or the people who own them, and why would I? I myself owned and enjoyed one for over two years. Rather, I think I've clearly stated my opinion about how the TSX and 325i stack up next to each other, and clearly explained why I believe what I do. I don't care if you agree with me or not, I've just expressed my opinion.

Is this thread not titled, "TSX vs. 325i?" Did it not occur to you that some posters might actually want to discuss the merits of BOTH cars?

Hey hans, save yourself some future grief. If you don't want to hear from BMW enthusiasts about what makes the 325i such an appealing car, I suggest you avoid threads that bear the sequential numbers 3, 2, and 5 in the title.

P.S. If you can find a thread titled, "325i vs. TSX" on a BMW enthusiast forum, I'm sure your experience as a TSX owner would be most appreciated there. Here are a few to get you started:

unofficialbmw.com
e90post.com
bimmerfest.com
roadfly.com

vitocorleone

As a purely "magazine racer" (beep beep! lol), it's always been obvious to me that, though the TSX offers ~90%+ of the performance of the E46 325, the feel of wringing out the high performance would ALWAYS be better on the BMW (I'm leaving mods out of this). There's no other car that offers what the TSX offers at the price it offers it; it's not the best at anything except being good at everything. That being said, even though many of us prefer what the TSX offers that's actually better than the BMW (haven't experienced an E90 yet except seeing one in a parking lot and one on the road), someone that emphasizes the driving experience above everything else will take a BMW every time. As they should, since no other car company has quite matched it... though it seems they're getting closer every generation - close enough that people really owe it to themselves to comparison shop even if what they are most interested in is the driving experience.

Anywho. My 1c.

gdcwatt

Well, even if money's no issue, I see that there's no clear winner for 7 months of the year. So, the deciding issue is how fast is that BMW in the snow, up, down and around the ski hill? I am debating buying one of the two subjects of this thread and while I've told the BMW guys at two dealerships what the deciding issue is, they seem less than keen to offer me a snowtire equipped car to test in the snow, and I have to wonder, "Why NOT!"

Round 1 = Hotly debated tie
Round 2 = TSX
____________
Victor: TSX

fedlawman

Wow, you found an Acura dealer willing to equip a TSX with snow tires just for a test drive?

I'd buy a TSX from him just for the effort he went to!

peter_bigblock

Having never road raced until racing my TSX this summer, I don't have any way to compare the feel of a RWD car like the E46 or E90. I will say, though, that I have gotten pretty proficient at throwing the TSX into turns (late turn-in, late apex as fedlawman described) and it responds very predictably to a little lift-throttle straightening out. The front outside tire howls in protest in turns and takes a ton of abuse. And I was racing on the stock tires (trying to wear them out so I can justify a higher-perf rubber)! The stockers aren't as bad, IMHO, as people say -- they lose and regain grip very predictably and I find I can hang with drivers who are less patient and less smooth and are trying to rely on their (better) tires.

That brings me to my last point -- whether you're in a TSX or a BMW, you'll go a lot faster practicing and learning to drive smoothly. That, much more than which chassis is more this or which setup is more that, will influence the outcome of a race between two fairly equal cars.

Get the car you like better, for the reasons you like it better, and learn to drive the hell out of it. That's my

gdcwatt

There is a new Canadian bargaining chip: the BMW 323i, with a cost identical to the TSX. Yes, the TSX is faster, but now you can negotiate from a position of strength, because both are great cars!

Five inches of snow fell last night, so I took the opportunity to test drove another 325i, with AT this time, and stock all-season Bridgestone Turanza 205/55-16 tires. I found some deserted residential roads, with reasonable hilly sections, and this car coped very well. I was impressed! I could easily stop and start in the middle of a hill; when traction is limited the TC really cuts engine power, though, and you wouldn't want to be in the middle of an intersection with oncoming traffic, but the car just starts up and keeps going - and BMW owners say these tires are "lousy", compared to what they've replaced them with. I never, never, never felt I was going to be stranded, or not be able to point the car in the direction I wanted to go: it was easy to do what I wanted the car to do. Meandering around the streets, with one side of the car in virgin snow, and other on lightly tread-on, but still deep-enough snow, going uphill (or down) this car was completely CONTROLABLE, going forward or back, left-right-left-right..., and just as good as my Protege with snowtires; my Mazda may be "faster" in the snow (or may not be), but it takes a lot more drama to drive, turn, etc., and my Mazda need's a lot more spinning of tires, and sawing at the steering wheel.

I am now convinced the E90 would be a safe, competant car in the snow, with snowtires, for the rest of my family to drive. Current technology has made this rwd car a viable Canadian winter alternative to fwd. Now I can negotiate on price!

I already know how various Hondas work in the snow, and it largely comes down to what tires youve got, and dealing with the understeer, and left-foot braking if needed; I recall not being able to back down a slightly (downward) inclined driveway in 1" of snow, in a new '88 Accord EXi, with the OEM Michelins - pathetic, really. With snowtires, the Volvo 242GT was a tank, but my Fiat Spyder and RX-7 were "inefficient", most of the time, even with added weight in the back - and snowtires.

I priced parts and labour for an E46 325 for complete brakes, clutch replacement, and exhaust at $750Cdn each (plus lots of tax), and was told the E90 would be very similar. An oil change might be $116+, and the extended warranty is double the cost of that for the TSX, but BMW gives 4-year/80,000km/50,000mile free service. Required run-flat tires are a pain in the butt, but I can deal with that, and I do like the 12-year rust perforation warranty.

GIBSON6594

I went to the BMW dealership last night, priced out a 06 325xi, everything but cold weather package and folding rear seats. I knew I wasn't going to buy it, but I tried to see how low he would go on the price. He came down to a "bare minimum" at $36,200.

I got back into my TSX with a big smile on my face...

bibby

Same VW PAssat 1.8T....Acura definitely felt better.

project13TSX

i think fedlawman is really a bmw agent paid to say propaganda on an acura site....

i mean
1. why would you put an old ass bimmer as your picture on an acura site?
2. why do sound like sales person selling bmw to us?
3. why are there so many bmw fans crawling around here?
4. dont bmw fans have their own sites?
5. why are they all coming in here to say something good about bmw?

GIBSON6594

He's a troll

dom

If I'm not mistaken fellawnman used to own a TSX so he speaks from experience.
Why are there so many BMW fans around here? Fact is the TSX is a great alternative to the 3 series. Ultimately it may not be the performance equal but its bang for the buck quotient has peaked some BMW owners interests and they come here to learn alittle more about the TSX.

I don't see anything wrong with what fedlawnman has done around here. Believe me there have been some pretty annoying BMW fanatics around here (most recently Nikki) and they've been given the boot.

The fact that some Bimmer owners have to come around here and thump their chests and make themselevs feel better about their BMW does nothing but reinforce what a great car the TSX really is IMO.

jlukja

ianS

Not just because bang for the buck, BMW owners interests in something that is fun to drive and also trouble free! Once you ever have your 1 yr old sitting inside a freezing cold BMW on somewhere in the city and waiting for a tow truck on a -30C day, you will have no faith to travel your kids with this Ultimate driving machine anymore.

I think I am a pretty annoying Honda fanatics around BMW forums.... but I see fedlawnman comment is quite objective.

Oh! my chest is totally purple now!

project13TSX

i wonder if the pope posts on bmw forums about his cars

Kor

Slightly off the specs here, but the 2006 TSX sound system, vs the stock 2002 BMW 330i system, the TSX wins by a far margin.

jlukja

^^ Is it the same sound system as in the 04/05?

waTSX

Dude, fedlawman is a former TSX owner and one of its most avid supporters. Go read some of his old posts at Edmunds defending the TSX against snobbish Bimmer owners (you'll have to go back a couple of years). His posts are insightful and on point.

His knowledge and input about the TSX was one of the reasons I ended up buying one. That and a couple of test drives.

I think he just really appreciates the virtues of RWD platforms and was lucky enough to locate and buy a really clean E30. He's rightfully excited about his car, just like we are about ours. That "old ass bimmer" could reasonably be considered a modern classic.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Aside from minor adjustments to the display of the headunit, everything else is still the same.

jlukja

Wow. The 2002 330i stock system must really suck then. My 04 stock system sounded OK but eldude's avincar speakers made a world of difference.

Kor

Guess that's why 330i has a "HK Sound system upgrade" option.

(no, not Hong Kong sound system!)

project13TSX

i think someone from acurazine should go into bimmer forums with the name of "ThePope" and then start writing a review of the vatican's fleet of bmws....

no wait.... how about a review of the acura tsx! lol

project13TSX

this just in, pope's next ride

joerockt

^^^^ This just in (at least to you), that Pope is dead

project13TSX

i guess he'll be driving that in his popemobile heaven

fedlawman

I'm gone for a week and I missed the Pope's visit to this thread again!

If I were the Pope, the Bugatti Veyron 16.4 would be my ride. It would demonstrate my national pride and it's the closest thing to heaven on this earth right now...

fedlawman

You're exactly right Dom. I couldn't have said it better.

fedlawman

Thanks Johnny.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

uh...this pope is German, not Italian...

He needs a Mercedes McLaren SLR

project13TSX

no, he needs a hyundai accent

fedlawman

Sorry, I didn't get word that the Vatican had moved...

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

The pope, though residing in the Vatican, is acutally a German national. So for him to show his national pride, he would need a German supercar.

Overtaxed

Greg/ghyman,

Thanks for your review of the 2 cars. It is very helpful to me.

I am considering the Acura TSX. And the BMW 3-series.

I tried the 2006 BMW 325i. I have never owned a luxury car before either. I was actually quite disappointed on several fronts, but I thought the handling and ride (balance of handling/comfort) were excellent.

I haven't had the chance to try the TSX yet, but I had heard the ride was a little harsh. That is my only concern, as I wonder if I will tire of that over the long term.

Thanks,
Julie

hrj

iTrader: (1)

tsx ride isnt harsh at all.. its firm.. not harsh..