Nikki

You must never have driven one.

Nikki

Oh and here are my opinions on the "extras"


1. The 325i comes with a better audio system than the TSX.
The TSX has an 8 speaker 360 watt system and the 325i has a 10 speaker (including two subs) 330 watt system.
2. The BMW Angel eyes are much nicer than the TSX xenons and the 325i comes standard with foglights that seem to light up just as much as the TSX's xenons.







3. The BMW leatherette looks and feels nicer than the cracking leather trimmed seats on my TSX.






4. I don't need heated seats in Florida so it's two less buttons cluttering my interior.

Nikki

Sorry I posted a pic of leather by accident.
Here's a pic of the leathette, but with non-sport seats.

Nikki

here's a black leatherette with sport seats.

FiVa

But it doesn't come with CD changers and it comes with 16" wheels....

vidgamer

Wait a sec. ... A-spec suspension is by Honda/Acura. Can you at least allow that one? And, replacing the tires with grippier sports car tires will make a huge difference. So, if I can be allowed to make those changes and still call my car "stock" at least to some extent.... now use that in a comparison. :P

But really, if someone wants to put some Comptech headers on, Injen intake, and Tein suspension, that's not really THAT radical. As someone else posted, it's not uncommon for BMW owners to have similar upgrades. (How many BMWs are driving around with chip upgrades? I'd bet a lot!) It's not comparing stock to stock, but the point is, can you spend a little extra on the TSX, get worthwhile upgrades, and still have more cash to pocket from the difference?

However, I'm not a big fan of making radical changes. If you have to make too many changes, maybe you should have just gotten the more expensive car in the first place.


And about comparing prices.... you really have to compare MSRP for BMW against discounted prices for the TSX. I can't deal at all with BMW dealers, but it's easy to get a discount on a TSX. Poof, that's at least $1000 more difference right there. I know, chump change for a fanatic, but sometimes the real world crushes in....

Seriously though, I think it's almost creepy how much the TSX reminds me of older 3-series designs, just in general. I don't think that's a coincidence. I was interested in a BMW, but I think I just kept getting stuck on price. I kept adding on options, and then I just couldn't justify the huge difference. I didn't get a chance to test drive the new one, unfortunately. However, I wouldn't be able to compare it to a TSX with A-spec in a test drive situation anyway, as no Acura dealer is going to have the A-spec on their lot, and everyone seems to agree that the BMW handles better stock to non-A-spec. But when you pull the A-spec into the picture, that's when things look interesting. So, I've taken a bit of a leap-of-faith onto the TSX bandwagon, and so far am enjoying it just fine!

ianS

1, 10 speakers = better audio???? The HK from bmw are known to be crap and still charge for extra. The Panasonic from the TSX has way better sound than the hk crap. But audio is really subjective.
2, Yeah, go drive with your angel eyes and fog light only on the night time and dun turn on your xenon.
3, Go drive on your leatherette on the summer time and you will see how much sweat you can have from your ass and once you get out of your leathette, everyone will think you just fart! And you want to see how bad the leather cracked on my bimmer after 2yr? the dealer even willing to remount new leather for me without asking a question (it is wired for a bmw warranty work) but since they already did too many warranty claim on their shitty leather, so they not borther me at all.

Well, will see after you finished the honeymoon with your new bmw.

GIBSON6594

I'm not against modding at all...

I'm against taking a $30K car, spending 10 grand hooking it up then saying that it is a better car than the 40 thousand dollar car you are comparing it too. Maybe i'm just strange or i'm not explaining myself right...oh well

GIBSON6594

Nikki, i'm not sure if you've told us already, but how much more did your new 3-series cost you?

Nikki

It plays mp3s, which is much more convenient.
Load all of your music onto one CD and you're good to go.
You can fit 6-8 CDs onto one and you don't have to wait for it to shuffle through them.


The only thing bad about the 16" wheels are looks and the tires they come with.
However the stock 325i tires are much better rated on tirerack than the crappy michelins on the TSX.

Nikki

1. It is preference, but I listened to the 325i stereo and could tell the difference instantly. It is much clearer and has better bass. Another great feature is that no matter how loud you play the stereo, the mirrors never vibrate.

2. No that isn't legal. I'll use my Xenons.

3. I don't have leatherette.

Nikki

$10k more than the TSX.

peterjedi

Someone from an earlier thread mention that you got the 330i. Do you have a navigation system? I really think the 330i competes with the TL in performance and features. I would not compare it against a TSX.

I would compare the new 2006 TSX with this years 325i BMW.
I think the new 2006 TSX will win hands down. You have the Ipod integration and Blue Tooth. Passenger power seat. Memory power driver seats, etc. If there is anything else that I left off, please add it. Also 4-5 more HP. A comparibly equipped BMW would still run you 7-8 k deep.

peterjedi

If you put 10k on a stock TSX. That TSX is going to be way better than a stock BMW 325i. If you spend the same money on the BMW. The two cars would still be about even.

Nikki

I don't modify cars and I have a 330i, not a 325i.

Nikki

I didn't get the horrendous iDrive. I like to drive my car, I don't want it to drive me.
I got my car for it's driving aspect, not the luxury aspect, but yes I do love its luxuries.

The 325i has ipod integration.
It has bluetooth as an option, $750 or included in premium package.
Power seats with memory are a $1k option.
So that's only $2000 over MSRP of $30,900
And as I said before, none of those things are necessary for a driving enthusiast.

fedlawman

Don't discredit yourself. I agree with every point you made.

Although not too many people take advantage of ED, the point is that the 325i can be had for much less than the $8,000 to $10,000 premium some posters like to claim.

Yes, too many BMW owners buy them for the badge and perpetuate the stereotype. However, we are all enthusiasts here at this forum. We share a similar love of performance cars, and we should be able to assume that Acurazine members can appreciate an Acura or BMW for what's underneath the sheetmetal.

Every car is a compromise. I loved my TSX, but ultimately decided to sacrifice the Acura's luxury and reliabiity in exchange for a purer, more dynamic driving experience. If I could own any (reasonably affordable) car I wanted, I'd be driving a Lotus Elise, S2000, Miata, or Porsche Cayman. However, since I wanted a track-worthy sports car with uncompromised performance AND room for the kids, I chose the Bimmer.

How about you and I go test-drive an E90 some time?

fedlawman

How much does it cost to give the TSX a 50/50 Fr/Rr weight bias? How much to convert to RWD? How much for brake-fade compensation?

fedlawman

That's the most absurd argument I've read here. Who would ever want to own a $36,000 TSX?

You could invest thousands of dollars on 19" rims, coil-over suspension, low-profie summer tires, CAI, Headers, cat-back, Hondata reflash, etc. And you'd be ruining your car! You'll have a TSX that's faster on smooth, dry, clear, level roads only and lacks the poise, comfort, and balance of the stock car. It will also still be FWD and have 60/40 front weight bias. This modded TSX will always lack the sublime steering feedback, dynamic handling traits, and rock-solid body structure of the E90.

The most I would ever do to a TSX to increase performance is upgrade with summer tires, rear sway bar, and Hondata reflash - in that order. This will net you a TSX that has significantly improved performance yet still retains the factory comfort, reliability, and value that Honda engineers invested 1000's of hours developing.

hans007

yes thank you for the bmw snob power that just completely showed there.

"yes hans you must never have had caviar on your crackers, no wonder those crackers taste bad"


and i have driven both an e46 325ci and 330i sport packages. sure i havent had the pleasure of owning one, it just wasnt a good value.

everyone enjoys a drive, but it is not worth giving up luxury. if i want a great driving car with all the luxury stripped out of it for an absurd amount of money couldn't i just buy... oh i dunno an evo ix mr or something like that?

oh but i wouldnt have a bmw badge on it.

all i'm saying is if i am paying anywhere near 40 grand for a car it better have a good amount of feature content.

and no , the fake leather look and feels cheap. i dont even know why they have it, might as well have cloth at least with cloth it doesnt slide.

fedlawman

i have driven both an e46 325ci and 330i sport packages. sure i havent had the pleasure of owning one, it just wasnt a good value.

Who determines what is or isn't a "good value?" How is the TSX a good value when you can buy a 2006 Hyundai Sonata LX for about $5000 less (with all the same features, plus a V6 with more HP and TQ)?

everyone enjoys a drive, but it is not worth giving up luxury. if i want a great driving car with all the luxury stripped out of it for an absurd amount of money couldn't i just buy... oh i dunno an evo ix mr or something like that?

Luxury isn't based on how many buttons are on the dashboard. Luxury is about powertrain refinement, ride quality, control feedback/response, chasis tuning, body structure, tight seams, quality materials, etc. The TSX is very nice, but the E90 is better.

all i'm saying is if i am paying anywhere near 40 grand for a car it better have a good amount of feature content.

You must really despise cars like the Lotus Elise or Honda S2000!

and no , the fake leather look and feels cheap. i dont even know why they have it, might as well have cloth at least with cloth it doesnt slide.

Is now a good time to remind you that 75% of the TSX's "leather-trimmed interior" is vinyl? Personally, I can't tell the difference through my clothing.

Look, I can make a strong argument why it's stupid to pay $26,000 for a TSX when you can get a Hyundai Elantra for $11,000. I challenge anyone here to articulate logically how ONE Acura TSX is equivalent to 2 1/2 Hyundai Elantra's!

In capable hands, the E90 is a whole notch above the TSX in dynamic response. Whether you think that extra capability is worth a premium or not is completely up to you to decide.

By the way, when I first got my TSX, I compared it to the E46 by saying the TSX felt less solid, but more nimble and playfull while the E46 felt more solid and planted, but kind of heavy feeling. Well, the E90 is simply a revelation. It takes the rock-solid body feel of the E46, improves upon it, then adds the nimble, tossable nature of the TSX to the equation. It's simply magic.

hans007

ok... let me amend what i said somewhat, it wont let you edit after 5 minutes.

if i am going to spend 40 grand on a 4 door sedan that i am using mostly to not autocross or race on laguna seca, it better have a good amount of feature content.

so i suppose, my arguing that giving up feature content in a sedan, for apparently what some here seem to equate as the driving orgasm that is driving a bmw, is not a solid argument that seems to be constantly getting bashed.

and yes, ok it was a "better" value. i got bashed for my, i would rather have a tsx with all its standard features than a bmw with nothing standard even if the bmw cost the same, with i quote "You must never have driven one." like, some sort of driving orgasmic effect was supposed to make up for having a stripper of a car.

this being a tsx forum, i am amazed how many bmw owners are here. i love my tsx and think for what it is it was the right choice. but i do not go on bmwforums to make me feel good about my car. seeing as apparently half the people in this thread are bmw owners trying to convince tsx owners that some magical force takes over your body in a bmw and the driving sensation will transform driving into sheer ecstacy i'm actually confused if i am actually at acura-tsx.com anymore.

vidgamer

I think I kind of stated the above as well, saying that if you have to add thousands of dollars of upgrades, maybe you should get the more expensive car in the first place, but that wasn't really the point I was trying to address.

The point the other poster was trying to make is that you could mod both cars, and the TSX would improve more quickly than the BMW compared with stock, and that they'd be more comparable. An interesting opinion.

To some extent I agree with those of you who say that you change the car too much as you start adding mods, and you lose the ability to make fair comparisons.

Still, I don't think it's too crazy to add the A-spec suspension to the TSX and still call it stock, or Acura, or factory-made, or something, particularly when you'll probably compare it to a 325i that has an optional sports package. I really don't see the difference! I'm talkin' about $800, not $10,000! You're paying less than the equivalent BMW package as long as you don't go for the whole package with rims and everything... Ok, throw in good, sticky tires for another $500. This is what I'm planning, and I'm hoping it will be worthwhile.

That's because all of the parts that touch your clothing are leather, not vinyl. No, I do not believe that the only leather parts are the perforated parts. You can feel the difference. (Unless they changed things for '05. )

peterjedi

I am not a modder myself. I was simply making a point that you could make simple mods to a TSX and that the outcome would be comparable to a BMW. The TSX would still be a lot cheaper than an BMW.

You make some good points about the FWD vs RWD and how rock solid the BMW is compare to a TSX. You seem very knowledgeable about cars. I am sure you know alot more than me.

Now I am going to ask for your honest opion. Why did the TSX beat out every Bimmer in the SCCA? I am just interested in your explaination.

ianS

I totally agree with you that TSX is more nimble and playfull than E46 which felt kind of heavy and slow response but I dun feel TSX is ne less solid than E46 in terms of driving feel. No doubt BMW has better sheet metal but TSX has a higher collision rating than E46. And with E90, I just drove a E90 325i for 1/2 day and a 20 min test drive on the E90 330, the 330 is obviously better than my 328 & TSX but not the E90 325. It still feel heavy & the throttle response still as slugglish as my 328i. Regarding the handling, once you have a-spec, rsb & better tire on TSX, the TSX will not shadow behind E90.

And you never have leathette on BMW, you won't know how bad it is. The leather is a must have option unless you are not driving it in summer and winter. The seat on the TSX is 1000 times better the leathette on BMW and I don't see it is any worst than the leather on my 328. At least my comment is after comparing both cars day by day for more than 1.5yr and is not just an impression after a 5min test drive or just seating in the showroom.

Is Sonata that good? I never try it. I have driven pony & elentra and I prefer to drive a 10yr old Civic rather than driving those in brand new. BTW, the Kia Secptra is not that bad, it drive way better than my bother's C230.

Nikki

so because you drove an e46 means that you can compare a tsx to an e90?
go drive an e90 and then give me your complaints.

fedlawman

The goal of SCCA is not to see which car is the best but rather, to make the races between the drivers. To that end, all the cars must comply with weight limits, RPM limits, etc. to level the playing field before the season even begins. These SCCA cars bear no resemblance to the street cars you and I drive.

That's why a Mazda Protege and Nissan Sentra can compete fairly with a BMW 325i and Acura TSX in this series.

joerockt

I find it hard to beleive the #1, 3 and 4 drivers in Speed WC, who just happen to be driving TSX's, are THAT much better drivers then the entire field out there.

The car and the team still have a LOT to do with it.

ianS

The manual tranny on the e90 is as crappy as the one on my E46(I wonder why they are not carry foward the one from E46 ZHP over which is way lot better than the one on e90). And I said the E90 325 feel heavy and response as sluggish as my E46 328. Can I call that complaint?

waTSX

I'd love to. Just say the word.

Speaking of the Cayman, I haven't even seen one yet and I'm already very intrigued. Kind of a Boxster on steroids. R&T loved it.

Oh yeah, if somebody wants to give me an Elise, I'll take one of those too.

waTSX

Stop it! Keep it up and that test drive will end up being a purchase.

hans007

so wait after i test drive an e90, itll all be ok.


look i'm expecting to nearly fall over from the euphoria of driving the e90. i mean from what i've read the e90 and e46 drive more or less about the same, or that the e90 drives worse because it has runflats. thats about what i've read.


i dont think it could possibly be miles better, so basing the comparison on the e46 might even be a generous comparison.

fedlawman

Actually , the number 1 WC team/driver is Turner Motorsports/Bill Auberlin. He was the champion in 2003 and 2004. This year he only entered 3 TC events, and made the podium in all of them (2nd at Sebring, 1st at Lime Rock, and 1st at Infineon).

Both the TSX and 325i are fine platforms for a race car, but in racing, it all boils down to a team's budget. Budget buys the best drivers, the best engineers, the best go-fast parts, and the most track time for R&D.

Real Time (Acura) and Turner (BMW) are factory sponsored, professional race teams. They spend countless hours researching, designing, and testing performance components that allow their cars to be as competetive as possible within the confines imposed by the SCCA (weight, rev limits, throttle body diameter, compression, piston stroke, etc.). The next most competetive teams like Bimmerworld (BMW) and Tri-Point (Mazda 6) sometimes get a podium finish, but they just don't have the resources to consistently compete with the "big two." The rest of the field consists of entries from "grass roots" teams like "Phil's Auto Body Racing" and "Irish Mike's Racing" (guess who drives their cars - yes, it's Phil and Mike).

Ask yourself this question. Is the Chevy Impala a sports car because Jeff Gordon wins races in one?

fedlawman

The Cayman is my new (attainable) dream car. If only they'd put a back seat in it!

Several Elises show up at BMW and Alfa Club lapping days I attend. They are incredible machines! I'll be coming around Turn 8 with no one behind me - by the time I reach turn 9, they're on my bumper. When they go by, it's like I'm standing still. Wicked fast on the strights and through the corners!

About that E90 test drive, do you want to pick a day? I'm off mornings right now - 7 days a week. We'll take my E30.

fedlawman

Nikki, why waste your time? He doesn't need to actually DRIVE the car, he's read the magazine tests!

peterjedi

well you did say the RWD factor was much better than FWD. If under extreme conditions you would think the RWD factor would win out, but that is not the case here. The TSX is FWD and can hold its own against the Bimmer.

With equal mods, I still believe the TSX vs the E90 325i is about even and you would shave off 7-8k.

Don't get me wrong. I think the BMW is very nice car. Without the BMW as a benchmark the TSX would probably not be as good and more expensive.

At the end of the day, I think, like a true enthusiasts, you want to get the best performance and value for the buck! Being smart with your money is a good thing.

GIBSON6594

325>TSX

325 is more expensive than TSX

I think should just about settle it.

fedlawman

Well you did say the RWD factor was much better than FWD. If under extreme conditions you would think the RWD factor would win out, but that is not the case here. The TSX is FWD and can hold its own against the Bimmer.

I won't get into the FWD vs. RWD argument here. I will say that the TSX is an outstanding car. It's sporty, quick, nimble, and very fun to drive. Driven below 8/10ths, most people will never notice it's a FWDer.

With equal mods, I still believe the TSX vs the E90 325i is about even and you would shave off 7-8k.

Depends on what you mean by "even." The TSX and 325i are very close on paper, and actually, both will hustle around a track in a similar time-frame (I dogged more than a few E46's in my TSX at SIR). It is the manner in which they go about their business that is the basis for this discussion.

The TSX and BMW may pull similar g's, but while the BMW takes a set, plants itsef, and tracks through, using all four of it's contact patches to the fullest extent, the TSX scrubs and pushes it's outside front tire under constant protest. Inducing oversteer with trailing throttle to rotate the car is possible in the TSX, but it's neither easy nor natural, as it is in the Bimmer. Add rough pavement and/or some mid-corner elevation changes, and the gap widens further.

(Johnny, do you remember when I showed my TSX's right front tire at Alki after lapping PR? Looked like grated cheese!)

It's not the numbers or the physical limits that set the 325i apart from the TSX. It's the superior control, response, and feedback that make the BMW a superior sporting car.

waTSX

Yeah, I remember. That thing was hammered. I do remember thinking at the time that this was due as much to the fact that you were tracking a tire not really designed for it as the FWD TSX's inherent limitations.

I'm looking forward to feeling the difference between the two layouts, though I'd guess any test drive in a new E90 will be severely salesman-limited . I've gotten to the point where I can push the TSX pretty hard through turns. Be nice to do the same with the Bimmer.

Man, between you, blueguydotcom and shipo I'm developing a nice little BMW jones. Purists all. Still feeling love for the TSX, though.

Saturdays would be best for me, but this weekend is spoken for. How about a week from tomorrow? If you have an idea about which dealership would be best, I'm all ears.

fedlawman

Yeah, I remember. That thing was hammered. I do remember thinking at the time that this was due as much to the fact that you were tracking a tire not really designed for it as the FWD TSX's inherent limitations.

Yeah, that's a tough call. Certainly not designed for the track, but they are V-rated right, so temperature shouldn't have been an issue. Probably a combination of several factors.

I'm looking forward to feeling the difference between the two layouts, though I'd guess any test drive in a new E90 will be severely salesman-limited . I've gotten to the point where I can push the TSX pretty hard through turns. Be nice to do the same with the Bimmer.

Don't know what they'll let you do. However, you won't need to hammer it to experience the feeling of precision and control though. I'll let you hammer my E30 to give you a taste of why I switched to the dark side.

Man, between you, blueguydotcom and shipo I'm developing a nice little BMW jones. Purists all. Still feeling love for the TSX, though.

BMW's get a bad rap from the college girls and old rich ladies you often see driving them, but the BMWCCA is filled with enthusiasts who love them for their performance and aren't afraid to push them on the track. In this regard, BMW and Honda owners have a lot in common. Passion for their cars, and a strong desire to mod them with a parts from a huge aftermarket network.

Saturdays would be best for me, but this weekend is spoken for. How about a week from tomorrow? If you have an idea about which dealership would be best, I'm all ears.

Saturday the 5th works for me. How about 10:00? BMW Seattle is best, I think, because they are BMWCCA Puget Sound supporters. Do you know where Star Lake Elementary School is (off 272nd just east of Military Rd.)? We could meet there and jump on I-5...