'97 2.2CL - Starting Problems

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Old Jan 12, 2010 | 09:55 AM
  #1  
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From: Ledyard, CT
'97 2.2CL - Starting Problems

I did a search but couldn't find anything that directly fit my problems.

For a few weeks now, I've noticed the car accelerating oddly. If I give 3/4+ throttle, the car kind of lags (you can actually feel it pull back) and then it surges forward fast as if I've just come off the clutch. I should state here that the clutch is fine and that I've been driving the car for 30,000+ miles and do know how to drive it.

Anyway, the last few days have been really difficult. When I've gone to start the car up, the starter cranks fine, but the engine won't turn over completely. You can hear it attempting to and revving up to 500 and 1,000 RPMs, but never fully starts. Clearly the battery and starter are fine, otherwise it wouldn't even crank. Anyway, after about 10 minutes of periodically trying it, I can get it to struggle to the point where it takes over and successfully starts. This morning after getting it to start, the car cyclically revved from 700 RPMs to 2,000 RPMs. After driving for a minute, it stopped cyclically revving.

Anyone have any ideas? Tomorrow I'll have someone around that can help me check if there is a spark and to listen if the fuel pump is humming while clicked on. Otherwise, I'm trying to search what could cause this. Someone suggested fuel pump or fuel filter. What do you think?
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Old Jan 12, 2010 | 02:31 PM
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From: ShitsBurgh
could definitely be a fuel delivery problem, I'm assuming you have a stick so it's not the tranny most likely. It could also be the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) I've seen that cause the RPM's to bounce around, they're notorious for going bad on our cars
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Old Jan 14, 2010 | 01:07 PM
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I appreciate the input. I'm going to investigate the throttle position sensor.

The car started up successfully yesterday and this morning with no issue. However, after stopping for a brief lunch at KFC with my girlfriend, I had the problem again. The car was about to start up successfully (and right away) when it stalled out. So I rolled under the car and had her key the ignition on and I could hear the fuel pump humming. Also, luckily I was in walking distance from Advance Auto and borrowed a spark plug socket, so I was able to pull a plug and determine there is indeed a spark. With it out, I had her hit the gas and I definitely could smell gas under the hood. It eventually started up with me pumping the gas. As you guys know, pumping the gas isn't necessary in a fuel injection motor...but it did work. After it started, everything was normal again.

The Advance Auto staff have helped me to determine a few possible issues. I'm going to investigate the throttle position sensor, bought a new fuel filter and will replace that, and check out the fuel rail for a possible clog. Also, I'm going to pull the idle air control valve to ensure it's not sluggishly opening and closing.

Any other suggestions?
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Old Jan 16, 2010 | 11:21 PM
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So, today I was able to pull the IAC and properly clean it and get it back in. I was attempting to replace the fuel filter (which is in a terrible location in this car) when I gave up when I couldn't unscrew the bottom of the filter with the fuel line. I did, however, note that the fuel in the filter looked fine and that the fuel rail drained quite a bit when the service bolt was disconnected, which also looked fine. I did not look at the EGR today, as I wanted to focus on one step at a time.

After getting it all back together, the car again showed the same symptoms. It would crank continuously (proving the battery is still really strong and holds a charge very well) and occasionally begin to turn over, but never actually catch. I determined, yet again, that I had spark and fuel delivery intact. After about 10 minutes of this, I was able to get the car to run by pumping the gas again. Once the car was running, I listened to the fuel injectors, all four clicking and sounding good. I put the timing light on the car and everything seemed A-OK.

I really need someone to suggest something that could cause this. I'm scouring the internet for other similar problems--many of which either don't have a a solution, or it was never posted. I'm searching the internet to determine every sensor in the car and researching what it does when it fails. Tomorrow, I'm going to unbolt and clean the EGR and maybe take a voltimeter to the crankshaft position sensor. The Haynes guide does a lousy job showing where this is located. Anyone have any advice?
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Old Jan 17, 2010 | 07:07 AM
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The problem is likely related to spark delivery issues; distributor cap, rotor, spark plug wires, or plugs. All these items together are not that much investment. If it's been a while, I would start w/ replacing these.

When attempting to start, does the Check Engine and Alt light come on when keyswitch is turned to ON? If not, you might have a keyswitch problem. However since you saw spark, at least one time, this is less likely.

Throttle position sensor will not cause a starting problem to my knowledge. It is very reliable and rarely a problem, but frquently suspected.

Is Check Engine Light on? If yes, get the code by shorting service check connector under glove box and reading CEL flashes; Long flash =10, short flash =1, so LF+SF+SF+SF+SF=14.

good luck
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Old Jan 17, 2010 | 08:48 AM
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I appreciate the response. I replaced the cap, rotor, plugs, and wires at the beginning of the summer. Yesterday, I replaced the rotor with the ignition coil. I pulled every plug and visible got a strong spark with each of the plugs.

The check engine light and alternator light do come on when I key the car. The ECU hasn't thrown a single check engine code. I even hooked up the code reader to see if anything would show, but nothing did.
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Old Jan 17, 2010 | 01:58 PM
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Maybe damaged seals around the injectors are allowing fuel to leak into the engine? That causes hard starts. The engine could be flooded from fuel leaking in all night. It shouldn't be hard to visually inspect the injectors on a 2.2.
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Old Jan 17, 2010 | 03:31 PM
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Interesting idea. Maybe I'll pull the injectors to take a look tomorrow.

The car has started up ever since I cleaned the IAC yesterday. The last time I've started it up today (about 5 times now) it started rough...but it did start. I don't want to seem hopeful, but maybe the IAC did it.
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Old Jan 19, 2010 | 11:50 AM
  #9  
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So the car has started the last few days, albeit sort of rough, but it did start. I tested the EGR two days ago and everything tested fine.

Today, it started up and stalled immediately. The smell of fuel inside the car was pretty strong. After a few minute of attempting to start the car on and off, it finally took over and then ran smoothly. Looking under the hood, I don't see any visible leaks. I had a helper start the car while I looked under the hood and didn't notice anything leaking. There was also no visible dried up drips or anything on the fuel rail.

Could this possibly lead to be leaky fuel injectors? I don't see a leak, but could they be leaking into the block with no visual problem outside the engine? I'm really trying to rack my brain to figure out what is wrong. I'm running out of ideas quickly.
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Old Jan 20, 2010 | 07:50 PM
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Yeah they can leak into the block without leaking on the outside. This reduces fuel pressure in the system making it hard to start until pressure builds back up again. Also, if the fuel that leaked in hasn't evaporated you would have a rich mixture plus non-atomized fuel while you're trying to start it.

I'm not saying that is definitely the problem, but it's something to think about.
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Old Jan 21, 2010 | 02:17 PM
  #11  
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Brief update: the coolant pressure test came back good. The car holds 10 psi cold with no issues and runs at 7 psi from start-up through fast idle to curb idle. No issues. I'll be doing a compression check later or tomorrow, whenever I can get a helper.
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Old Jan 22, 2010 | 05:22 PM
  #12  
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Well, it's been an exhausting day. The compression tester isn't really built for a through-the-head spark plug socket. Even though I had tightly secured the correct fitting to the tester (via threads--what an awful design), the fitting ALWAYS remained in the block when removing the comprssion tool, except when the rubber house began to twist in place (leaving the threads stationary). Anyway, I became quite handy with an easy out and a pair of needlenose pliers. I also noticed that plugs 2 and 3 came out hard and that the holes need to be rethreaded. I think that because of this the 3rd cylinder didn't come to full compression as it didn't thread tight enough. Otherwise, here are the compression results:

Cylinder 1: 180 psi
Cylinder 2: 165 psi
Cylinder 3: 135 psi
Cylinder 4: 175 psi

Today I also tested my fuel pressure. Before start the fuel pressure built up to and held at 46 psi. At idle the pressure was a consistant 36 psi.
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Old Jan 23, 2010 | 12:34 PM
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Cylinder 3 doesn't look too great.
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Old Jan 24, 2010 | 12:26 AM
  #14  
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From: Ledyard, CT
I agree. However, as I stated, I think it's because the compression gauge may not have been screwed in all the way. "Hand tight" on this cylinder was maybe half of the other cylinders due to whatever buildup exists in the spark plug threads.

The car has been starting fine since then. Not had any issues. I remember around the beginning of the year not driving it for a few days (4 or 5) due to the amount of snow that had fallen here in Southern New England. I'd been driving my Jeep and left my car to relax. I'm wondering if it had started hard because of that and has gotten it out of it's system.
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