H22a ...or... F20b?
11-13-2009, 04:53 AM
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H22a ...or... F20b?
Im pretty sure a lot of people are going to tell me H22a right off the back, but for my own bank account... I've been searching for cheaper alternatives for an end result with turbo and great boost.
That aside it brought me back into the F series engines... Most particularly f22 and f20. Did some research and everyone has claimed that the f22 having the low compression that it is a great application for boost Compression ratio: 8.8:1. While the f20 is Compression: 11.0:1. Both of them have the cast iron blocks so they should be able to withstand some good boost without much trouble... f20b has DOHC which i really want to see what all the hype is about.. I can get one from JDM Tiger Japanese for $590 with 25k-35k miles. Compared to me 180k f23 it would be nice.
Dropping the compression from my reading should be fairly easy compared to buying the h22, redoing the internal, and still being limited with it not having an iron block. I can't find the page for it atm but i've done a lot of reading here
http://www..com/showthread.php?t=1042351&page=2
So my question to you, and i have very little knowledge of as far as engines, and cars in general go... since we have f23a1 engines.. and im thinking of ordering and f20b engine... Will it drop right into the existing spot of the f23? Will it need much work to make it fit? IE i can do it.. with the help of several friends who have done swaps... one of them did an f22 into his accord, idk if that was just an engine replacement, or he swapped it i dont know the accords stock motor lol.
If this is a drop in, hook up, start i'll be happy... Lowering the compression to mid 9's should still be cheaper than the H22 swap? Then i can save up for a nice turbo, while driving a practically new engine with some nice pull....
Please.. comments? If this does drop in no issue, i seriously think i am going to get the f20b mainly for the cash difference, and its a wee bit different
Its ODB2 so the ECU shouldnt have an issue with it right? Or will i need to buy a new ECU?
That aside it brought me back into the F series engines... Most particularly f22 and f20. Did some research and everyone has claimed that the f22 having the low compression that it is a great application for boost Compression ratio: 8.8:1. While the f20 is Compression: 11.0:1. Both of them have the cast iron blocks so they should be able to withstand some good boost without much trouble... f20b has DOHC which i really want to see what all the hype is about.. I can get one from JDM Tiger Japanese for $590 with 25k-35k miles. Compared to me 180k f23 it would be nice.
Dropping the compression from my reading should be fairly easy compared to buying the h22, redoing the internal, and still being limited with it not having an iron block. I can't find the page for it atm but i've done a lot of reading here
http://www..com/showthread.php?t=1042351&page=2
So my question to you, and i have very little knowledge of as far as engines, and cars in general go... since we have f23a1 engines.. and im thinking of ordering and f20b engine... Will it drop right into the existing spot of the f23? Will it need much work to make it fit? IE i can do it.. with the help of several friends who have done swaps... one of them did an f22 into his accord, idk if that was just an engine replacement, or he swapped it i dont know the accords stock motor lol.
If this is a drop in, hook up, start i'll be happy... Lowering the compression to mid 9's should still be cheaper than the H22 swap? Then i can save up for a nice turbo, while driving a practically new engine with some nice pull....
Please.. comments? If this does drop in no issue, i seriously think i am going to get the f20b mainly for the cash difference, and its a wee bit different
Its ODB2 so the ECU shouldnt have an issue with it right? Or will i need to buy a new ECU?
Specifications
- Accord SiR wagon, SiR-T F20B 97-01 2.0L
- Valve train: 4 Cylinder, DOHC VTEC, 16 Valve
- Bore: 85.0 mm
- Stroke: 88.0 mm
- Displacement: 1997 cc
- Torque: 145 ft·lbf (197 N·m) @ 5500 rpm
- Horsepower: 200 hp (150 kW) @ 7000 rpm
- Red Line: 8200 rpm
- Compression: 11.0:1
- Fuel Control: OBD-2
11-13-2009, 05:33 AM
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I read Yurhomieblaze thread, and it was nice to see it done, and looking pretty. But im still lost to all the extras i will have to buy to make this swap work. Anyone remember what he needed, which i may have missed in the thread?
11-13-2009, 10:53 AM
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acurahb also has an f20 swap, my own personal opinion, if you're boosting, the f20 is a much better option than the h22 which doesn't handle boost as well without a rebuild
11-14-2009, 01:47 AM
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After more reading and reading, i have another question as far as engine mods go 
f20b = destroked H22a which is why a lot of people don't use it... but it is a better turbo imo because of the iron block... higher compression is a pain... f20b does have some advantages though imo... So why not stroke the f20b back to a 2.2L?...
I read this is it true?
With that in mind would swapping the F20b's crank for a stock H22a crank increase it to 2.2L? Thus adding the power an H22 would have ontop of the 200hp the f20b has?
Would this mess up the r/s ratio and lower engine reliability?
They took an f20c and made it a 2.4L using a similar method if i read right..
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/06...ild/index.html
F20B spec
H22a spec
I don't understand most of that... But i do know i want to turbo in the end so i will need to lower the compression ratio.. which means i will need either new cams, or shorter pistons right? If i bore the f20B from 85mm to the h22a's 87mm would that help to lower its compression (I don't understand much about engine compression yet sorry!) By changing the crank to an h22a crank my stroke should be back to 90.70 mm right?
The amount of psi i want to run really is up in the air.. as cool as 15psi to me sounds, it really isn't sensible for my to try and build a motor (save up for one) which will need the internals redone.
Source:
http://hondaswap.com/accord/honda-f20b-106604/
How much does ARP studs and Block guard cost to do? Worth while? From my reading it seems that 8psi is perfectly safe to do on f20b stock internals, but i would feel so much better if somehow the new crank or if i got it bored to meet the h22a's and got stock h22 pistons and crank lowered the compression.... This is all future plans and preparation though.
False?
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=827806
Summed up... Would a stock h22a crank increase the displ. to 2.2L and give me in essence an H22a with higher compression and an iron block...? simple ways to lower compression for a safe 8-10psi boost in the future?
Sorry to post such a long.. drawn out... question filled thread... i am starting my piggy bank Right after i buy Gnates muffler and want to do this thing right the first time!
So please bear with me and give me some help?
--------
f20B Install Guide
http://www.accordracing.com/showthread.php?t=5649
f20b = destroked H22a which is why a lot of people don't use it... but it is a better turbo imo because of the iron block... higher compression is a pain... f20b does have some advantages though imo... So why not stroke the f20b back to a 2.2L?...
I read this is it true?
Hondahaxor: I think there's something you don't understand, the only way you can de-stroke an engine is by replacing the crank,
Would this mess up the r/s ratio and lower engine reliability?
They took an f20c and made it a 2.4L using a similar method if i read right..
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/06...ild/index.html
F20B spec
Specifications
- Accord SiR wagon, SiR-T F20B 97-01 2.0L
- Valve train: 4 Cylinder, DOHC VTEC, 16 Valve
- Bore: 85.0 mm
- Stroke: 88.0 mm
- Displacement: 1997 cc
- Torque: 145 ft·lbf (197 N·m) @ 5500 rpm
- Horsepower: 200 hp (150 kW) @ 7000 rpm
- Red Line: 8200 rpm
- Compression: 11.0:1
- Fuel Control: OBD-2
Specifications"
- Bore × Stroke: 87.0 mm × 90.70 mm (3.43 in × 3.57 in)
- Displacement: 2,157 cc (131.6 cu in)
- Valve Configuration: DOHC, 16 valves, VTEC
- Type: In-line 4 cylinder, aluminum block and head
- Compression ratio: 10.0-10.6:1 (North America); 10.0-11.0:1 (Europe); 10.6-11.0:1 (Japan)
- Max power: 185-220 PS
- Redline: 7200/7600 rpm
- Rev Cut: 7400/7800 rpm
- Engine Control System: Honda Systems PGM-FI with port fuel injection
- Valve Gear: Belt-driven dual overhead cams, 4 valves per cylinder, variable timing and lift
- 92-96 versions use closed-deck blocks with FRM liners while the 97-01 versions used open-deck blocks with FRM liners.
The amount of psi i want to run really is up in the air.. as cool as 15psi to me sounds, it really isn't sensible for my to try and build a motor (save up for one
) which will need the internals redone.
It depends on how much power you want to make. The F-series engines are generally pretty stout from the factory and can stand up to a decent amount of boost in stock form. Upgrading all the internals certainly wouldn't hurt, but it's not completely necessary. With just ARP studs and a block guard I'd feel perfectly safe boosting under 10 PSI on a healthy F20/F22 engine.
http://hondaswap.com/accord/honda-f20b-106604/
How much does ARP studs and Block guard cost to do? Worth while? From my reading it seems that 8psi is perfectly safe to do on f20b stock internals, but i would feel so much better if somehow the new crank or if i got it bored to meet the h22a's and got stock h22 pistons and crank lowered the compression.... This is all future plans and preparation though.
You can use the H22 rods, but they would just increase the stroke to 2.2L.
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=827806
Summed up... Would a stock h22a crank increase the displ. to 2.2L and give me in essence an H22a with higher compression and an iron block...? simple ways to lower compression for a safe 8-10psi boost in the future?
Sorry to post such a long.. drawn out... question filled thread... i am starting my piggy bank
Right after i buy Gnates muffler and want to do this thing right the first time! So please bear with me and give me some help?
--------
f20B Install Guide
http://www.accordracing.com/showthread.php?t=5649
Last edited by Shadoh; 11-14-2009 at 01:52 AM.
11-14-2009, 02:10 AM
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Few methods found to decrease compression.. safe? Somewhat cheaper than others sound...
http://www.lextreme.com/decompression.htm
Sounds like a cheap method to decrease compression well.
http://www.lextreme.com/decompression.htm
Sounds like a cheap method to decrease compression well.
11-14-2009, 04:42 PM
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Im using this thread to dump information that i find into it 
Break in Method... controversial method... and other secrets apparently.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
Break in Method... controversial method... and other secrets apparently.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
Trending Topics
11-14-2009, 11:39 PM
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Lol I might actually take what you said an condense everything im gathering into one big Pro and Con for f20b and h22a :/ Thought im getting excited about the possiblities of an f20b.
I looked at the f22 for a while lol, it is cheap :p and thats good, but i want to go long term performance, and try out a DOHC to see how it feels, since saving up will take a looooooooong time, this thread is "I HOPE" going to be my brainstorm of all the information i find so that i can "plan" out how much i will need to save, what i need to buy, what modifications i will need to do before installing it to get the results i want in the end, IE higher disp. Lower compression for boost. I think tongiht i will start putting together a massive pro and con article :p Sorry if i spam up this thread though, I am in one of those moods that reading all of this stuff, and learning all of this engine science is getting me all giddy. Hopefully some of the information i gather will be able to help others who are deciding between an h22a and something else, or just want some facts about either engine
But i don't know much of anything from my own experience, so if anyone can prove, or disprove what i am saying please do! Such as... h22a Crank on an f20b = 2.2L displ? Bore f20b 85mm to 87mm = 2.2L displ? Is what my reading is telling me... but im not sure if that how it really would work. Ontop of raising the compression to that of an h22a in order to put that "destroked h22a" counter to rest... i want to lower the compression to 9.5 or 9.7 for a 10psi boost. So i need to figure out a safe way to decrease the compression, as well as raise the displ... My mind wants to say that if i use an h22a crank, and bore it out to the same spec as an h22a i have in essence turned it into an h22a since they share everything except the bore/stroke/compression/displacement compression and displacement being relative to bore and stroke. If i can manage this... i now have an h22a with a cast iron block. For.. hopefully cheaper than sleeving an FRM h22a... and i will still have the option of sleeving the cast iron block if i should so choose
for an even larger boost...
Good in theory... and my reading all checks out... havent ran prices past the basics.. $1600 to get it running $2500 to get it I/H/E chipped tuned if i order from tiger.
But those are bound to change i am sure lol So please if anyone can prove or disprove some of this?
----------------------
Source:
http://www..com/showthread.php?t=1232811
I looked at the f22 for a while lol, it is cheap :p and thats good, but i want to go long term performance, and try out a DOHC to see how it feels, since saving up will take a looooooooong time, this thread is "I HOPE" going to be my brainstorm of all the information i find so that i can "plan" out how much i will need to save, what i need to buy, what modifications i will need to do before installing it to get the results i want in the end, IE higher disp. Lower compression for boost. I think tongiht i will start putting together a massive pro and con article :p Sorry if i spam up this thread though, I am in one of those moods that reading all of this stuff, and learning all of this engine science is getting me all giddy. Hopefully some of the information i gather will be able to help others who are deciding between an h22a and something else, or just want some facts about either engine
But i don't know much of anything from my own experience, so if anyone can prove, or disprove what i am saying please do! Such as... h22a Crank on an f20b = 2.2L displ? Bore f20b 85mm to 87mm = 2.2L displ? Is what my reading is telling me... but im not sure if that how it really would work. Ontop of raising the compression to that of an h22a in order to put that "destroked h22a" counter to rest... i want to lower the compression to 9.5 or 9.7 for a 10psi boost. So i need to figure out a safe way to decrease the compression, as well as raise the displ... My mind wants to say that if i use an h22a crank, and bore it out to the same spec as an h22a i have in essence turned it into an h22a since they share everything except the bore/stroke/compression/displacement compression and displacement being relative to bore and stroke. If i can manage this... i now have an h22a with a cast iron block. For.. hopefully cheaper than sleeving an FRM h22a... and i will still have the option of sleeving the cast iron block if i should so choose
for an even larger boost...Good in theory... and my reading all checks out... havent ran prices past the basics.. $1600 to get it running $2500 to get it I/H/E chipped tuned if i order from tiger.
But those are bound to change i am sure lol So please if anyone can prove or disprove some of this?
----------------------
Source:
http://www..com/showthread.php?t=1232811
Well, since I started this a while back in another thread I figured it was about time to finish what I started and make a definitive answer thread for anyone looking for piston, rod, crank and block specs or compression ratios of various H, F or H/F combinations.
Anything anyone wants to add to this thread post up whatever info or specs you have and Ill add it to this original post. I am putting up only what i have personally measured and or quoted direct from the helms manual. I dont want this thread to get cluttered with he said she said specs so Im asking that we limit contributions to first hand spec acquisitions and or helms manual references only. Whatever I have missed or havent measured myself, please feel free to post and contribute. The items i have yet to measure or discover I will leave blank until myself or another member provides the information.
Im going to start by adding a few specs that I can think of off the top of my head now, I will return later tonight and add some more info which will include a few CR calculations.
If I leave something blank and you have the information/specs plase post it up and I will edit this post and ad the new additions to the thread.
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Blocks</FONT></FONT>
Block Type
H22A4 Block = Open Deck
H22A block = Closed Deck
H23A block = Open Deck
H23A1 block = Closed Deck
F22 block = Open Deck
F23 block = Open Deck
F20B block = Open Deck
Deck Height
H22A4 Block = 8.643
H22A block = 8.643
H23A block = 8.643
H23A1 block = 8.643
F22 block = 8.643
F23 block = 8.643
F20B block = 8.643
Bore
H22A4 Block = 87mm/3.425
H22A block = 87mm/3.425
H23A block = 87mm/3.425
H23A1 block = 87mm/3.425
F22 block = 85mm/3.346
F23 block = 86mm/3.385
F20B = 85mm/3.346
Note:
Due to various available piston diameters (A/B) actual bore diameter may vary
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Rods</FONT></FONT>
Length
H22A4 = 5.633
H22A = 5.633
H23A = 5.572
H23A1 = 5.572
F22 = 5.572
F23 = 5.551
F20B = 5.709
Width
H22A4 = .935
H22A = .935
H23A = .935
H23A1 = .935
F22 = .935
F23 = .780
F20B = .935
BE Bore
H22A4 = 2.008
H22A = 2.008
H23A = 2.008
H23A1 = 2.008
F22 = 2.008
F23 = 1.890
F20B = 1.890
Pin Bore
H22A4 =
H22A = .8649-.8654
H23A =
H23A1 = .8649-.8654
F22 = .8649-.8654
F23 = .8649-.8654
F20B =
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Pistons</FONT></FONT>
Bore
H22A4 = 87mm/3.425
H22A = 87mm/3.425
H23A = 87mm/3.425
H23A1 = 87mm/3.425
F22 = 85mm/3.346
F23 = 86mm/3.385
F20B = 85mm/3.346
Note:
actual diameter may vary depending on code of piston (ie, A B)
Compression Height
H22A4 = 1.221
H22A = 1.221
H23A = 1.203
H23A1 = 1.203
F22A1 = 1.203
F22A4 = 1.203
F23A1 = 1.181
F20B = 1.221
Dome Volume
H22A4 =
H22A =
H23A =
H23A1 =
F22A1 =
F22A4 =
F23A1 =
F23A4 =
F23A5 = -18cc
F20B =
Wrist Pin Diameter
H22A4 = .866
H22A = .866
H23A = .866
H23A1 = .866
F22 = .866
F23 = .866
F20B = .866
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Crankshafts</FONT></FONT>
Stroke
H22A4 = 90.7mm/3.570
H22A = 90.7mm/3.570
H23A = 95mm/3.740
H23A1 = 95mm/3.740
F22 = 95mm/3.740
F23 = 97mm/3.818
F20B = 88mm/3.464
Main Journal Diameter
H22A4 = 55mm
H22A4 = 50mm (1997 Only)
H22A = 50mm
H23A = 55mm
H23A1 = 50mm
F22 = 50mm
F23 = 55mm
F20B = 55mm
Rod Journal Diameter
H22A4 = 1.888
H22A = 1.888
H23A = 1.888
H23A1 = 1.888
F22 = 1.888
F23 = 1.771
F20B = 1.771
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Cylinder Heads</FONT></FONT>
Combustion Chamber Volume
H22A4 = 53.8cc
H22A = 53.8cc
H23A = 53.8cc
H23A1 = 50cc
F22A1 = 50cc
F22A4 = 50cc
F23A1 = 50cc
F23A4 = 50cc
F23A5 = 50cc
F20B =
Intake Valve Diameter
H22A4 = 35mm
H22A = 35mm
H23A = 35mm
H23A1 = 34mm
F22 = 34mm
F23 = 34mm
F20B = 34mm
Exhaust Valve Diameter
H22A4 = 30mm
H22A = 30mm
H23A = 30mm
H23A1 = 29mm
F22 = 29mm
F23 = 29mm
F20B = 29mm
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Head Gaskets</FONT></FONT>
Bore
H22A4 = 88mm
H22A = 88mm
H23A = 88mm
H23A1 = 88mm
F22 = 86mm
F23 = 87mm
F20B = 86mm
Thickness
H22A4 = .026
H22A = .026
H23A = .026
H23A1 = .026
F22 = .026
F23 = .026
F20B = .026
Note:
Gasket thickness measured after crush
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Bearings</FONT></FONT>
Main Bearing Thickness
<FONT COLOR="blue">Blue:</FONT> 2.013 - 2.010mm / 0.0793 - 0.0791
<FONT COLOR="black">Black:</FONT> 2.010 - 2.007mm / 0.0791 - 0.0790
<FONT COLOR="brown">Brown:</FONT> 2.007 - 2.004mm / 0.0790 - 0.0789
<FONT COLOR="green">Green:</FONT> 2.004 - 2.001mm / 0.0789 - 0.0788
<FONT COLOR="yellow">Yellow:</FONT> 2.001 - 1.998mm / 0.0788 - 0.0787
<FONT COLOR="pink">Pink:</FONT> 1.998 - 1.995mm / 0.0787 - 0.0785
<FONT COLOR="red">Red:</FONT> 1.995 - 1.992mm / 0.0785 - 0.0783
Rod Bearing Thickness
<FONT COLOR="blue">Blue:</FONT> 1.510 - 1.507mm / 0.0594 - 0.0593
<FONT COLOR="black">Black:</FONT> 1.507 - 1.504mm / 0.0593 - 0.0592
<FONT COLOR="brown">Brown:</FONT> 1.504 - 1.501mm / 0.0592 - 0.0591
<FONT COLOR="green">Green:</FONT> 1.501 - 1.498mm / 0.0591 - 0.0590
<FONT COLOR="yellow">Yellow:</FONT> 1.498 - 1.495mm / 0.0590 - 0.0589
<FONT COLOR="pink">Pink:</FONT> 1.495 - 1.492mm / 0.0589 - 0.0587
<FONT COLOR="red">Red:</FONT> 1.492 - 1.489mm / 0.0587 - 0.0586
Main Bearing Width
H22A4 = .784
H22A = .784
H23A = .784
H23A1 = .784
F22A1 = .784
F22A4= .784
F23A1 = .784
F23A4 = .784
F23A5 = .784
F20B = .784
Rod Bearing Width
H22A4 = .762
H22A = .762
H23A = .762
H23A1 = .762
F22A1 = .762
F22A4 = .762
F23A1 = .609
F23A4 = .609
F23A5 = .609
F20B = .762
<FONT COLOR="green"><FONT SIZE="3">More to come.....</FONT></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="purple"><FONT SIZE="5">Contributors</FONT></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="orange">Thank you to the following for their contributions:</FONT>
PirateMcFred
prelittlelude
<FONT COLOR="pink">Jdogg</FONT>
ZigenBallz
Modified by Innovation at 1:43 PM 5/10/2005
Anything anyone wants to add to this thread post up whatever info or specs you have and Ill add it to this original post. I am putting up only what i have personally measured and or quoted direct from the helms manual. I dont want this thread to get cluttered with he said she said specs so Im asking that we limit contributions to first hand spec acquisitions and or helms manual references only. Whatever I have missed or havent measured myself, please feel free to post and contribute. The items i have yet to measure or discover I will leave blank until myself or another member provides the information.
Im going to start by adding a few specs that I can think of off the top of my head now, I will return later tonight and add some more info which will include a few CR calculations.
If I leave something blank and you have the information/specs plase post it up and I will edit this post and ad the new additions to the thread.
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Blocks</FONT></FONT>
Block Type
H22A4 Block = Open Deck
H22A block = Closed Deck
H23A block = Open Deck
H23A1 block = Closed Deck
F22 block = Open Deck
F23 block = Open Deck
F20B block = Open Deck
Deck Height
H22A4 Block = 8.643
H22A block = 8.643
H23A block = 8.643
H23A1 block = 8.643
F22 block = 8.643
F23 block = 8.643
F20B block = 8.643
Bore
H22A4 Block = 87mm/3.425
H22A block = 87mm/3.425
H23A block = 87mm/3.425
H23A1 block = 87mm/3.425
F22 block = 85mm/3.346
F23 block = 86mm/3.385
F20B = 85mm/3.346
Note:
Due to various available piston diameters (A/B) actual bore diameter may vary
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Rods</FONT></FONT>
Length
H22A4 = 5.633
H22A = 5.633
H23A = 5.572
H23A1 = 5.572
F22 = 5.572
F23 = 5.551
F20B = 5.709
Width
H22A4 = .935
H22A = .935
H23A = .935
H23A1 = .935
F22 = .935
F23 = .780
F20B = .935
BE Bore
H22A4 = 2.008
H22A = 2.008
H23A = 2.008
H23A1 = 2.008
F22 = 2.008
F23 = 1.890
F20B = 1.890
Pin Bore
H22A4 =
H22A = .8649-.8654
H23A =
H23A1 = .8649-.8654
F22 = .8649-.8654
F23 = .8649-.8654
F20B =
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Pistons</FONT></FONT>
Bore
H22A4 = 87mm/3.425
H22A = 87mm/3.425
H23A = 87mm/3.425
H23A1 = 87mm/3.425
F22 = 85mm/3.346
F23 = 86mm/3.385
F20B = 85mm/3.346
Note:
actual diameter may vary depending on code of piston (ie, A B)
Compression Height
H22A4 = 1.221
H22A = 1.221
H23A = 1.203
H23A1 = 1.203
F22A1 = 1.203
F22A4 = 1.203
F23A1 = 1.181
F20B = 1.221
Dome Volume
H22A4 =
H22A =
H23A =
H23A1 =
F22A1 =
F22A4 =
F23A1 =
F23A4 =
F23A5 = -18cc
F20B =
Wrist Pin Diameter
H22A4 = .866
H22A = .866
H23A = .866
H23A1 = .866
F22 = .866
F23 = .866
F20B = .866
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Crankshafts</FONT></FONT>
Stroke
H22A4 = 90.7mm/3.570
H22A = 90.7mm/3.570
H23A = 95mm/3.740
H23A1 = 95mm/3.740
F22 = 95mm/3.740
F23 = 97mm/3.818
F20B = 88mm/3.464
Main Journal Diameter
H22A4 = 55mm
H22A4 = 50mm (1997 Only)
H22A = 50mm
H23A = 55mm
H23A1 = 50mm
F22 = 50mm
F23 = 55mm
F20B = 55mm
Rod Journal Diameter
H22A4 = 1.888
H22A = 1.888
H23A = 1.888
H23A1 = 1.888
F22 = 1.888
F23 = 1.771
F20B = 1.771
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Cylinder Heads</FONT></FONT>
Combustion Chamber Volume
H22A4 = 53.8cc
H22A = 53.8cc
H23A = 53.8cc
H23A1 = 50cc
F22A1 = 50cc
F22A4 = 50cc
F23A1 = 50cc
F23A4 = 50cc
F23A5 = 50cc
F20B =
Intake Valve Diameter
H22A4 = 35mm
H22A = 35mm
H23A = 35mm
H23A1 = 34mm
F22 = 34mm
F23 = 34mm
F20B = 34mm
Exhaust Valve Diameter
H22A4 = 30mm
H22A = 30mm
H23A = 30mm
H23A1 = 29mm
F22 = 29mm
F23 = 29mm
F20B = 29mm
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Head Gaskets</FONT></FONT>
Bore
H22A4 = 88mm
H22A = 88mm
H23A = 88mm
H23A1 = 88mm
F22 = 86mm
F23 = 87mm
F20B = 86mm
Thickness
H22A4 = .026
H22A = .026
H23A = .026
H23A1 = .026
F22 = .026
F23 = .026
F20B = .026
Note:
Gasket thickness measured after crush
<FONT SIZE="2"><FONT COLOR="red">Bearings</FONT></FONT>
Main Bearing Thickness
<FONT COLOR="blue">Blue:</FONT> 2.013 - 2.010mm / 0.0793 - 0.0791
<FONT COLOR="black">Black:</FONT> 2.010 - 2.007mm / 0.0791 - 0.0790
<FONT COLOR="brown">Brown:</FONT> 2.007 - 2.004mm / 0.0790 - 0.0789
<FONT COLOR="green">Green:</FONT> 2.004 - 2.001mm / 0.0789 - 0.0788
<FONT COLOR="yellow">Yellow:</FONT> 2.001 - 1.998mm / 0.0788 - 0.0787
<FONT COLOR="pink">Pink:</FONT> 1.998 - 1.995mm / 0.0787 - 0.0785
<FONT COLOR="red">Red:</FONT> 1.995 - 1.992mm / 0.0785 - 0.0783
Rod Bearing Thickness
<FONT COLOR="blue">Blue:</FONT> 1.510 - 1.507mm / 0.0594 - 0.0593
<FONT COLOR="black">Black:</FONT> 1.507 - 1.504mm / 0.0593 - 0.0592
<FONT COLOR="brown">Brown:</FONT> 1.504 - 1.501mm / 0.0592 - 0.0591
<FONT COLOR="green">Green:</FONT> 1.501 - 1.498mm / 0.0591 - 0.0590
<FONT COLOR="yellow">Yellow:</FONT> 1.498 - 1.495mm / 0.0590 - 0.0589
<FONT COLOR="pink">Pink:</FONT> 1.495 - 1.492mm / 0.0589 - 0.0587
<FONT COLOR="red">Red:</FONT> 1.492 - 1.489mm / 0.0587 - 0.0586
Main Bearing Width
H22A4 = .784
H22A = .784
H23A = .784
H23A1 = .784
F22A1 = .784
F22A4= .784
F23A1 = .784
F23A4 = .784
F23A5 = .784
F20B = .784
Rod Bearing Width
H22A4 = .762
H22A = .762
H23A = .762
H23A1 = .762
F22A1 = .762
F22A4 = .762
F23A1 = .609
F23A4 = .609
F23A5 = .609
F20B = .762
<FONT COLOR="green"><FONT SIZE="3">More to come.....</FONT></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="purple"><FONT SIZE="5">Contributors</FONT></FONT>
<FONT COLOR="orange">Thank you to the following for their contributions:</FONT>
PirateMcFred
prelittlelude
<FONT COLOR="pink">Jdogg</FONT>
ZigenBallz
Modified by Innovation at 1:43 PM 5/10/2005
11-15-2009, 01:24 PM
#12
i like acura
theres a few different options i would explore. i would
a. keep current engine, spend money on internals, because if your gonna have an f23 anyways, theres no point it spending money on low miles motor if your going to rebuild the internals anyway. jus rebuild your motor.
b. get the h22, mess with the internals if you want to spend the money, but a swap and internals, plus boost can get pretty spendy. id say keep the h22 idea, bolt ons, and run 7-10 lbs of boost. you'll get your power, and hopefully keep some reliability with the low boost. i mean even get a boost controller, run it at 5, and turn it up if you wanna play around.
c. get the f20. but dont boost this motor. its a higher compression motor, which would not be ideal for boost unless your going to completely re do the components inside. but i think this is my favorite option of the 3. everyone has boost, and theres a lot of h22's. but i think a high compression NA f20 build would be sweet as tits! i mean you could even look into getting some itb's instead of boost, and then you could really have some fun. i mean who doesnt want to rev to 9 grand?
also into consideration, what transmission would you be using? would you try to keep the f22 tranny with the h22? or swap them both. if you boost, some say that the f22 is better becasue of the longer gears, which gives more time for boost after turbo lag. but i think the advantage of gettint the h22 tranny, or f20 tranny with lsd would be more worth it in the end, becasue if your going to be putting down the power, you should know about the cl's notorious wheel hop problem. and an LSD wouldnt hurt....
a. keep current engine, spend money on internals, because if your gonna have an f23 anyways, theres no point it spending money on low miles motor if your going to rebuild the internals anyway. jus rebuild your motor.
b. get the h22, mess with the internals if you want to spend the money, but a swap and internals, plus boost can get pretty spendy. id say keep the h22 idea, bolt ons, and run 7-10 lbs of boost. you'll get your power, and hopefully keep some reliability with the low boost. i mean even get a boost controller, run it at 5, and turn it up if you wanna play around.
c. get the f20. but dont boost this motor. its a higher compression motor, which would not be ideal for boost unless your going to completely re do the components inside. but i think this is my favorite option of the 3. everyone has boost, and theres a lot of h22's. but i think a high compression NA f20 build would be sweet as tits! i mean you could even look into getting some itb's instead of boost, and then you could really have some fun. i mean who doesnt want to rev to 9 grand?
also into consideration, what transmission would you be using? would you try to keep the f22 tranny with the h22? or swap them both. if you boost, some say that the f22 is better becasue of the longer gears, which gives more time for boost after turbo lag. but i think the advantage of gettint the h22 tranny, or f20 tranny with lsd would be more worth it in the end, becasue if your going to be putting down the power, you should know about the cl's notorious wheel hop problem. and an LSD wouldnt hurt....
11-17-2009, 12:58 AM
#16
11-17-2009, 02:47 AM
#18
After more reading and reading, i have another question as far as engine mods go
f20b = destroked H22a which is why a lot of people don't use it... but it is a better turbo imo because of the iron block... higher compression is a pain... f20b does have some advantages though imo... So why not stroke the f20b back to a 2.2L?...
I read this is it true?
With that in mind would swapping the F20b's crank for a stock H22a crank increase it to 2.2L? Thus adding the power an H22 would have ontop of the 200hp the f20b has?
Would this mess up the r/s ratio and lower engine reliability?
They took an f20c and made it a 2.4L using a similar method if i read right..
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/06...ild/index.html
F20B spec
H22a spec
I don't understand most of that... But i do know i want to turbo in the end so i will need to lower the compression ratio.. which means i will need either new cams, or shorter pistons right? If i bore the f20B from 85mm to the h22a's 87mm would that help to lower its compression (I don't understand much about engine compression yet sorry!) By changing the crank to an h22a crank my stroke should be back to 90.70 mm right?
The amount of psi i want to run really is up in the air.. as cool as 15psi to me sounds, it really isn't sensible for my to try and build a motor (save up for one) which will need the internals redone.
Source:
http://hondaswap.com/accord/honda-f20b-106604/
How much does ARP studs and Block guard cost to do? Worth while? From my reading it seems that 8psi is perfectly safe to do on f20b stock internals, but i would feel so much better if somehow the new crank or if i got it bored to meet the h22a's and got stock h22 pistons and crank lowered the compression.... This is all future plans and preparation though.
False?
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=827806
Summed up... Would a stock h22a crank increase the displ. to 2.2L and give me in essence an H22a with higher compression and an iron block...? simple ways to lower compression for a safe 8-10psi boost in the future?
Sorry to post such a long.. drawn out... question filled thread... i am starting my piggy bank Right after i buy Gnates muffler and want to do this thing right the first time!
So please bear with me and give me some help?
--------
f20B Install Guide
http://www.accordracing.com/showthread.php?t=5649
f20b = destroked H22a which is why a lot of people don't use it... but it is a better turbo imo because of the iron block... higher compression is a pain... f20b does have some advantages though imo... So why not stroke the f20b back to a 2.2L?...
I read this is it true?
With that in mind would swapping the F20b's crank for a stock H22a crank increase it to 2.2L? Thus adding the power an H22 would have ontop of the 200hp the f20b has?
Would this mess up the r/s ratio and lower engine reliability?
They took an f20c and made it a 2.4L using a similar method if i read right..
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/06...ild/index.html
F20B spec
H22a spec
I don't understand most of that... But i do know i want to turbo in the end so i will need to lower the compression ratio.. which means i will need either new cams, or shorter pistons right? If i bore the f20B from 85mm to the h22a's 87mm would that help to lower its compression (I don't understand much about engine compression yet sorry!) By changing the crank to an h22a crank my stroke should be back to 90.70 mm right?
The amount of psi i want to run really is up in the air.. as cool as 15psi to me sounds, it really isn't sensible for my to try and build a motor (save up for one
) which will need the internals redone. Source:
http://hondaswap.com/accord/honda-f20b-106604/
How much does ARP studs and Block guard cost to do? Worth while? From my reading it seems that 8psi is perfectly safe to do on f20b stock internals, but i would feel so much better if somehow the new crank or if i got it bored to meet the h22a's and got stock h22 pistons and crank lowered the compression.... This is all future plans and preparation though.
False?
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=827806
Summed up... Would a stock h22a crank increase the displ. to 2.2L and give me in essence an H22a with higher compression and an iron block...? simple ways to lower compression for a safe 8-10psi boost in the future?
Sorry to post such a long.. drawn out... question filled thread... i am starting my piggy bank
Right after i buy Gnates muffler and want to do this thing right the first time! So please bear with me and give me some help?
--------
f20B Install Guide
http://www.accordracing.com/showthread.php?t=5649
Anyways, goodluck with your project.
11-17-2009, 03:07 AM
#19
I also want to add that in order to lower the compression ratio, you can go with thicker headgaskets which would lower it slightly, or go with low compression pistons (basically smaller ones or a different dome shape).
Didn't bother reading the rest though after that as I'm on vaca and have a flight to catch in the morning. Goodluck with your project.
Didn't bother reading the rest though after that as I'm on vaca and have a flight to catch in the morning. Goodluck with your project.
11-17-2009, 02:41 PM
#22
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Thanks everyone After reading a lot of the comments im settled on f20b, now i've got to save up that cash. Looking for new jobs and side jobs, etc etc etc, some reason the local strip club said i couldnt dance for money Wonder why...
Cocoa- So the crank will NOT destroke it, would it infact stroke it back to 2.2L Then if i bored it it would go up even more etc... but atm im only concerned with figuring out the crank = 2.2L or not lol
Would Lower compression pistons + thicker head gasket likely drop me to 9.5 CR?
Thanks to anyone who actually read part of my threads lol im going to formulate all of it into one massive article when i gather more information, and find out what theories are true and what arent.
Thanks everyone, H22 seems like a fun swap if i drop it right in, but i think the f20b has some serious potential if im willing to spend the extra $$ and think a little out of the box. Odds are by the time im ready to do this swap i'll be sitting in Lackland AFB for basic training... but atleast i'll know its being done right.
After reading a lot of the comments im settled on f20b, now i've got to save up that cash. Looking for new jobs and side jobs, etc etc etc, some reason the local strip club said i couldnt dance for money Wonder why... Cocoa- So the crank will NOT destroke it, would it infact stroke it back to 2.2L Then if i bored it it would go up even more etc... but atm im only concerned with figuring out the crank = 2.2L or not lol
Would Lower compression pistons + thicker head gasket likely drop me to 9.5 CR?
Thanks to anyone who actually read part of my threads lol im going to formulate all of it into one massive article when i gather more information, and find out what theories are true and what arent.
Thanks everyone, H22 seems like a fun swap if i drop it right in, but i think the f20b has some serious potential if im willing to spend the extra $$ and think a little out of the box. Odds are by the time im ready to do this swap i'll be sitting in Lackland AFB for basic training... but atleast i'll know its being done right.
11-17-2009, 07:26 PM
#23
Three Wheelin'
I would do turbo F23 unless you have some serious cash and want a 600whp set-up. Also, neither the F20 or F22/23 have iron blocks, only iron sleeves. Not sure if anyone has already mentioned that.
The F20 swap always seemed stupid to me, turbo or not. If your goals are under 350whp, the single cam F series will certainly be adequate. Not to mention a whole lot cheaper.
The F20 swap always seemed stupid to me, turbo or not. If your goals are under 350whp, the single cam F series will certainly be adequate. Not to mention a whole lot cheaper.
11-17-2009, 08:56 PM
#24
Thanks everyone After reading a lot of the comments im settled on f20b, now i've got to save up that cash. Looking for new jobs and side jobs, etc etc etc, some reason the local strip club said i couldnt dance for money Wonder why...
Cocoa- So the crank will NOT destroke it, would it infact stroke it back to 2.2L Then if i bored it it would go up even more etc... but atm im only concerned with figuring out the crank = 2.2L or not lol
Would Lower compression pistons + thicker head gasket likely drop me to 9.5 CR?
Thanks to anyone who actually read part of my threads lol im going to formulate all of it into one massive article when i gather more information, and find out what theories are true and what arent.
Thanks everyone, H22 seems like a fun swap if i drop it right in, but i think the f20b has some serious potential if im willing to spend the extra $$ and think a little out of the box. Odds are by the time im ready to do this swap i'll be sitting in Lackland AFB for basic training... but atleast i'll know its being done right.
After reading a lot of the comments im settled on f20b, now i've got to save up that cash. Looking for new jobs and side jobs, etc etc etc, some reason the local strip club said i couldnt dance for money Wonder why... Cocoa- So the crank will NOT destroke it, would it infact stroke it back to 2.2L Then if i bored it it would go up even more etc... but atm im only concerned with figuring out the crank = 2.2L or not lol
Would Lower compression pistons + thicker head gasket likely drop me to 9.5 CR?
Thanks to anyone who actually read part of my threads lol im going to formulate all of it into one massive article when i gather more information, and find out what theories are true and what arent.
Thanks everyone, H22 seems like a fun swap if i drop it right in, but i think the f20b has some serious potential if im willing to spend the extra $$ and think a little out of the box. Odds are by the time im ready to do this swap i'll be sitting in Lackland AFB for basic training... but atleast i'll know its being done right.
As to getting it to a 2.2L, the H22 is getting that displacement with it's bore AND stroke compared to the f20b. So I couldn't tell you if you'd in fact hit 2.2L or 2.1L with just the crank, I just don't know enough about these swaps to have the answer for you. Hope this helps you out a bit. But I'm sure the shop that will be doing all the work for you, would be knowledgable to have these answers already for you, or could find out in a more timely matter.
11-17-2009, 11:36 PM
#25
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I would do turbo F23 unless you have some serious cash and want a 600whp set-up. Also, neither the F20 or F22/23 have iron blocks, only iron sleeves. Not sure if anyone has already mentioned that.
The F20 swap always seemed stupid to me, turbo or not. If your goals are under 350whp, the single cam F series will certainly be adequate. Not to mention a whole lot cheaper.
The F20 swap always seemed stupid to me, turbo or not. If your goals are under 350whp, the single cam F series will certainly be adequate. Not to mention a whole lot cheaper.
I was just stating the general rule of thumb when it comes with headgaskets that thinner or thicker then stock will lower or raise it. But in order for you to drop to 9.5:1 CR, you need custom pistons UNLESS there are pistons of that CR or similar that fit in the block WITHOUT valve clearance issues that you can use from another stock engine. That information I won't have as I never looked it up, nor have any personal experience with it via friends or me.
As to getting it to a 2.2L, the H22 is getting that displacement with it's bore AND stroke compared to the f20b. So I couldn't tell you if you'd in fact hit 2.2L or 2.1L with just the crank, I just don't know enough about these swaps to have the answer for you. Hope this helps you out a bit. But I'm sure the shop that will be doing all the work for you, would be knowledgable to have these answers already for you, or could find out in a more timely matter.
As to getting it to a 2.2L, the H22 is getting that displacement with it's bore AND stroke compared to the f20b. So I couldn't tell you if you'd in fact hit 2.2L or 2.1L with just the crank, I just don't know enough about these swaps to have the answer for you. Hope this helps you out a bit. But I'm sure the shop that will be doing all the work for you, would be knowledgable to have these answers already for you, or could find out in a more timely matter.
I get the feeling that this will take a good year or so to complete and will require me to start my military career to complete it, watch me get based overseas in the process lol i'd be like Gee.... kill me now lol. Thanks everyone, essentially if i want to do what i desire... I will need to rebuild the internals of the f20b which will mean $$$$$$$$$$. Guess i'll have to spend a lot of time thinking
Because at the moment im like a kid with a new toy, im not weighing out the actual cost lol.Thanks for the help everyone i'll keep you all posted as to what i learn, and decide!
Last edited by Shadoh; 11-17-2009 at 11:38 PM.
11-18-2009, 08:37 PM
#26
Three Wheelin'
If this isn't a budget set-up, then I would go with a turbo H22 or maybe even a H23 VTEC. Losing displacement from the F20B doesn't make a whole lot of sense when the CL weighs over 3k pounds.
Were you planning on buying forged rods or doing anything to the bottom end? If you are, then go ahead and have the H22 sleeved. It's only a few hundred dollars and you'll know the block is bullet proof. Also, there's several companies that make forged internals, so there has to be a 9:1 c/r shelf piston available.
Good luck with the build. I look forward to seeing your progress.
Were you planning on buying forged rods or doing anything to the bottom end? If you are, then go ahead and have the H22 sleeved. It's only a few hundred dollars and you'll know the block is bullet proof. Also, there's several companies that make forged internals, so there has to be a 9:1 c/r shelf piston available.
Good luck with the build. I look forward to seeing your progress.
11-18-2009, 08:49 PM
#27
Senior Moderator
If this isn't a budget set-up, then I would go with a turbo H22 or maybe even a H23 VTEC. Losing displacement from the F20B doesn't make a whole lot of sense when the CL weighs over 3k pounds.
Were you planning on buying forged rods or doing anything to the bottom end? If you are, then go ahead and have the H22 sleeved. It's only a few hundred dollars and you'll know the block is bullet proof. Also, there's several companies that make forged internals, so there has to be a 9:1 c/r shelf piston available.
Good luck with the build. I look forward to seeing your progress.
Were you planning on buying forged rods or doing anything to the bottom end? If you are, then go ahead and have the H22 sleeved. It's only a few hundred dollars and you'll know the block is bullet proof. Also, there's several companies that make forged internals, so there has to be a 9:1 c/r shelf piston available.
Good luck with the build. I look forward to seeing your progress.
11-18-2009, 11:58 PM
#28
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@Blazin i do want to rebuild the whole engine, it depends on if i gain the money before or after i leave for the military, if i get it before i'll run a stock engine, and have the work done after boot camp. But i will be rebuilding it fully. Would the f20B's Iron sleeves be just as strong as the sleeving i would have done to the h22/23 for turbo? I plan on "attempting" to use an h22a crank on the f20b to raise the displacement back to 2.2L as well as leveling the bore which may raise the displacement even more... If the Iron Sleeve which the f20b has is the same as i would be paying for the h22a to be sleeved it would be more cost effective to do it on the f20b ... i think?
But i do plan on redoing the insides forged etc... im hoping to atleast put the engine stock into my car before boot camp, then after boot camp, AIT, i will have a good amount of money sitting in my bank i can order the parts i need ,rip the engine out, and have the stuff installed. If i cannot afford the engine before military calls... i'll just build it then put it into the car ;p
But i do plan on redoing the insides forged etc... im hoping to atleast put the engine stock into my car before boot camp, then after boot camp, AIT, i will have a good amount of money sitting in my bank i can order the parts i need ,rip the engine out, and have the stuff installed. If i cannot afford the engine before military calls... i'll just build it then put it into the car ;p
11-19-2009, 09:21 AM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Would the f20B's Iron sleeves be just as strong as the sleeving i would have done to the h22/23 for turbo? I plan on "attempting" to use an h22a crank on the f20b to raise the displacement back to 2.2L as well as leveling the bore which may raise the displacement even more... If the Iron Sleeve which the f20b has is the same as i would be paying for the h22a to be sleeved it would be more cost effective to do it on the f20b ... i think?
Last edited by Blazin Si; 11-19-2009 at 09:23 AM.
11-19-2009, 02:58 PM
#31
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Alright cool thanks blazin So i can save the money on sleeves. The next phase is to write out a plan of what i'll need in the end... then hope i get a call from one of the places i've applied to until i leave for boot.
So i can save the money on sleeves. The next phase is to write out a plan of what i'll need in the end... then hope i get a call from one of the places i've applied to until i leave for boot.
11-19-2009, 03:46 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
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ok, so if you're going to do the whole motor top to bottom, why start with the f20b?
if i remember correctly, you can stuff the f23 crank and rods into an h22/h23 block. should make for about 2.4L displacement.
if i remember correctly, you can stuff the f23 crank and rods into an h22/h23 block. should make for about 2.4L displacement.
11-19-2009, 05:51 PM
#33
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11-20-2009, 12:45 AM
#34
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To save money on the iron sleeving mainly :/ And for a little bit of uniqueness i guess would be why lol the f20b could turn out to be a nice alternative to h22/h23 - im hoping.
11-20-2009, 12:12 PM
#35
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being unique has never ever, ever, ever saved anyone money. plus now you need a block guard cause the f20 is open deck, the h22/h23's are closed, depending which one you get.
like you do realize you're probably looking at anywhere from 5-10g's for a fully built turbo motor top to bottom right?
like you do realize you're probably looking at anywhere from 5-10g's for a fully built turbo motor top to bottom right?
11-20-2009, 12:34 PM
#36
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Not to mention, f20's have been swapped into CL's just the same as H's have, I don't see the "uniqueness" factor
11-20-2009, 01:53 PM
#37
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Ya I realize the price tag of it, there's only been like 3 f20swaps its still unique but it does sound like building a sreet ready turbo rebuilt is cheaper for h but if I'm rebuilding the f sounds like it has more potential at the extra cost ...
11-20-2009, 03:13 PM
#38
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how does less displacement give you more potential?
these motors are more or less like lego's why wouldn't you take the best parts from each?
think outside the box!
these motors are more or less like lego's why wouldn't you take the best parts from each?
think outside the box!
11-20-2009, 03:31 PM
#39
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I am... Taking the crank from the h22a will give me the same displacement as the h22a while having the iron sleeves from the f20b. At least that is what my theory is, bore th f20b out to = the same as the h22a while staying within safe parameters to get a higher displacement than h22a with an increased bore.
What else could i mix and match?
What else could i mix and match?
11-20-2009, 08:48 PM
#40
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ok, here's your f20b block:
you wanna take that down a full MM and still boost it?
or would you rather have this:
also keep in mind that the darton sleeves can be bored out 90mm. throw the f23 crank and rods in and you'll be pushin like 2.5L of displacement.
yes it's gonna cost another grand but to be honest doing all the work you are purposing and not sleeving the block seems kinda silly
you wanna take that down a full MM and still boost it?
or would you rather have this:
also keep in mind that the darton sleeves can be bored out 90mm. throw the f23 crank and rods in and you'll be pushin like 2.5L of displacement.
yes it's gonna cost another grand but to be honest doing all the work you are purposing and not sleeving the block seems kinda silly
Last edited by davzilla; 11-20-2009 at 08:50 PM.