I hate cars

As many people know, I've not had a lot of nice things to say about the MS8 in the past. At this year's next SoCal meet I promised to burn it and run it over on video. Then I was contacted by Andy W of JBL. Anyone who knows this guy knows he's one of the top audio guys in the world and the "Global Product Line Manager, JBL Car Audio Harman Consumer"

He not only gave me his number and sent me a free headset (microphones used for auto tune and not cheap), but he also made an amazing offer that I probably shouldn't discuss on here if we couldn't solve my problem plus and an entire day of his time installing and tuning it! This is unheard of from anyone (except Jerry), much less a guy this high up in the audio world.

We got the issue worked out. One of my tweeters' polarity is either labeled wrong or there's some other issue causing polarity to be opposite (inside the MS8?). My mics were off a bit as well. After flipping polarity around on one tweeter, the center image became rock steady, the detail came back, and the passenger midrange is no longer super bright. Percussion has improved 10x over. It soun ds like a different system. That "one in a million" tune that Iwould get every few months is now consistent. I'm scared to call it good yet but so far so good.

It's not perfect but it feels like it needs a little tuning versus feeling like there's no hope and sounding worse than stock with nearly $7k worth of audio.

I've gone through in the past and popped each speaker with a battery and even rechecked my wiring starting at the HU against the factory wiring diagram..... But I've never had the courage to pop one of my tweeters and look for diaphragm movement for fear of blowing them. I visually verified polarity was correct though. I will eventually swap the tweeters side to side to see if it's a tweeter labeled wrong or something else but for now I'm back to just enjoying the music.

I just wanted to post something positive for once. Andy W is a class act. Now I feel kind of bad for the torturous things I was thinking of doing to the MS8.

Gizmo 04

nice, you don't find a lot of great customer service now a days, is good to see some companies still care

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Good to hear that Matt. Andy W. does seem like a really stand up, nice guy. Pretty cool to see people on these forums here and over there that are still so helpful and caring. Glad you got that figured out and are getting "that" tune again. So depressing to have a great tune and then hate it a few days later from a few small tweaks.

I hate cars

One weird thing I noticed last night after I posted this is at any given time there were 10-12 guests reading this thread and 70 reads this morning. I wonder if that many people google "MS8" at any given time.

InFaMouSLink

iTrader: (10)

so what was the offer since now its worked out?

jda123

Even though it sounds better, are you a little curious about how well it might sound if you ever get stuff worked out 100%? How confident are you that you can get to 100% with the MS8?

Can you "borrow" some dyn crossovers for a base comparison?

I hate cars

I missed your post somehow. I'm always wondering, that's how I continually mess things up once they sound ok. I posted this on DIYMA today, I can't even describe how good my whole system ingetration is, especially subbass. Copied because I'm too lazy to type it out again:

I JUST TRIED THIS AND I HAVE TO SAY THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST HELPFUL AND EFFECTIVE "TRICK" I'VE EVER USED WITH THE MS8. MINE WAS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT, I CALIBRATED WITH THE SUBS' POLARITY REVERSED AND THEN SWITCHED IT BACK TO NORMAL FOR LISTENING. SUB TO MIDBASS TRANSITION IS COMPLETELY SEAMLESS. EVEN THOUGH I KNOW IT'S AN ILLUSION, SUBBASS WAS SO INTEGRATED I TURNED THE VOLUME DOWN AND CHECKED EXCURSION OF THE MIDBASSES JUST TO EASE MY MIND.

SUBBASS IS SO UP FRONT THAT I MIGHT TRY AN EVEN HIGHER LOWPASS ON THE SUBS UNTIL IT'S PULLED REARWARD.

YES, THIS IS DESERVING OF ALL CAPS LOL. ANYONE THAT HAS HAD ISSUES WITH SUB TO MIDBASS INTEGRATION OR UPFRONT SUBBASS SHOULD DO THIS.

Unfortunately there are no Dyn crossover to borrow. I sold my old ones and they were for the 8ohm Esotec midrange instead of the 4ohm Esotar I have now.

I would love the hear the Esotars on the correct crossovers but they're well over $1,000. Right now, I've had the front stage sound better but the stage height and focus is the best it's ever been by far and finally for once it's constent with every tune. That goes for the whole system. I can do calibration after calibration and it's no longer all over the place. Now I'm confident in experimenting with crossover points and such, knowing the changes I hear are likely from the crossover points, not the MS8 being inconsistent.

I still believe a manual processor is better. The dynamics could still be better for sure but I think I can get 90% of the way there by playing around with EQ a bit more. I'll eventually go with a Bit One or the new ARC processor or even back to passives but I'm not in a rush like I was a few weeks ago.

I hate cars

I'll PM you after I clear my inbox...

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

What was the trick you did?? Just the polarity swap?

I hate cars

I reversed the subs' polarity, calibrated, and then flipped them back. It sounded like crap after the tune, before I flipped them back. Just drove the car and the integration is great. My side mirrors vibrate pretty badly but only from the midbasses. The subs barely affect the side mirrors so I was keeping an eye on them again at first because the integration is so good it's like there are no subs and all of the sound is coming from up front. I can turn my head to the side and hear nothing coming from the rear.

I raised the sub level and still have perfect upfront bass. The only thing that hurts the stage is the seatback vibrating when it's cranked up. If it wasn't for that it would be perfect. Leaning up with my back off the seat helps.

I don't see myself keeping the MS8 forever. The dynamics are still not that great compared to a few minutes with the BitOne or even compared to the old passives but it's acceptable for sure. Another nice thing is when I defeat processing where time alignment and eq go away and only crossovers remain, it actually sounds much worse. For the longest time, bypassing the processor made it sound better. For a while I was using the MS8 just for the crossovers.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Nice! At one point I had my bass up front and it was punchy as hell in the midbass and subs disappeared. ....I have no idea what I did and the tune didn't save.

Since I just got my new amp and sold my girls laptop, there was no way I was going to EQ on the little Palm Pilot so I just set the x-overs and TA and it's incredible how flat and boring it sounds. Center image is spot on, but there is ZERO dynamics, bass doesn't mesh well, etc. Using a buddies laptop until I can find one so hopefully today I'll get some good tuning in before the Thunder take down the Lakers

xxx_busa

what color is the KOOL-AID ???

I hate cars

I prefer red. Are you going to be at the next SoCal meet? I would be interested in getting your opinion. It's still a bit on the lifeless side but much better than it used to be. That is, if I don't beat up a certain DIYMA member and get kicked out lol.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Please tell its member "it's_bacon" lol

Busa...not a fan of the MS-8 or what it does??

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Please tell its member "it's_bacon" lol

Busa...not a fan of the MS-8 or what it does??

I hate cars

I wish. Unfortunately this guy is so nerdy I couldn't do it without feeling guilty even though he talked a lot of crap. I still plan to remind him of what he said on the board when I see him and let him decide where it goes from there. It's Cvjoint and if you get bored, look in the Klippel section at the way he talked down to me. I'm not going to beat him up but I am going to have a few words face to face with him.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, that guy always seemed to talk down to people on there. Little man syndrome for sure

jda123

If you want to borrow some high end crossovers, or some DC amps, then let me know. I only ask that I get them back in the same condition that I gave them. The DC amps are great to work with... Zapco power and Zapco clean sound.

Y'all think that I am crazy for only going to the classified section of diyma? Perhaps I should read more. Everybody can be a genius-asshole through the semi-anonymity of the web (myself included, of course). Only about 40-50% of what I test in my car ends up being what I read out there, so I can just flip a coin on my own and save the hassle. I also swear that half of the people out there have agendas. This is just one section of my building that I started to clean out... think that I have a problem? ...the pile is 4x that high now and that does not include what is in my cars. Anybody need a 3K monoblock? Maybe I need to quit buying and trying stuff and sell some junk.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Nice pile!...good pile that is

jda123

Clark - send me your address again. I have a 100x2 amp that might do 500w bridged that I can send you to keep in your closet/garage as a backup. It is not a great amp, but it pushes power and is better than listening to windshield and road noise.

xxx_busa

Matt, I'll be at the meet, in June, Hope you can make it. Look forward to hearing your car.

Trunk Monkey - I have not been convinced yet, MS-8

I hate cars

Definitely going to try and make this one.... I don't think my car is going to convince you that the MS8 is as good as a manual tune but it's "ok" right now. And by ok I mean no huge problems but kind of dead sounding as well. It's still so much better than I've ever had it though. Probably going to mess with it some more today.

Looking forward to hearing your setup. I haven't heard it with the new tune and modded components..... and the Dyn 1200s.

I hate cars

That's a very generous offer, not many people would be willing to do that. TM should definitely take advantage to get a few more amps to listen to. Nowadays I try out different equipment any chance I get so I can at least hear some of the things we discuss, even if it's for a short time. Jerry now has me interested in the ARC amps and I'm afraid I'm going to be buying more equipment to try out even though I'm thoroughly satisfied with the HDs. It's in my head now and I know I will give in eventually.

If you decide to unload a bunch of your equipment, let me know, I might be interested in buying some of it. As of now, I'm putting the McIntosh and 2 Focal Power amps along with a K2P set and 33kx sub for sale. I've been thinking about trying the Focal amps out for a week or so to compare to the HD on the midranges and tweeters but I'm pretty sure 75w will not be enough for the midrange.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Wow! Yeah....very nice! Thanks. PM sent

I'd really like to hear your setup and see what you consider dead and lifeless, just how good or bad the MS-8 is, etc. Really sucks not having many people in this area. Seems like there's a TON of people in Cali, NY/NJ and a few other hot spots. One of these days I'll make it over to go listen to that FISH guy's setup from DIYMA. He's got IB15's, Fountek FR88's, etc. Should be a good experience and maybe I can get some feedback. It's just embarrassing trying to show anyone anything or have them listen when you've got noise in the system and everything is just laying in the trunk.

I hate cars

I thought I would bring this up from the dead. I found a few more tips that work well with this processor.

For one, I used to turn the sub gain way down during calibration which resulted in better sub output after calibration.

I've started using an 80hz lowpass filter on the amp with a 70hz lowpass on the MS8. During calibration it cuts the subs' top end response considerably. What this seems to consistently do is eliminate the need to turn the amp gain down and it not only makes the subs sound so much better, the subs turn out louder and the sub to midbass integration is a whole lot better. After calibration I usually turn the amp's lowpass up to 100hz or so. It might be my particular subs but the fact that they can and will easily play high frequencies seemed to consfuse the MS8. I would end up with not enough midbass because of it I think. Now the midbasses are run a lot harder, the subs sound perfect, very good 20-30hz output yet "tighter" and "punchier" than ever before. The response is less peaky and they're more dynamic while blending with the rest of the system very well.

It's pretty interesting that even with a 70hz/24db lowpass on the subs, I can easily hear a difference when adding the amp's lowpass filter into the mix, even when it's set at 100hz. I don't know if it's these subs in particular but there's a lot of information past 100hz getting through to the subs and it really helps with localization to put another filter on them up higher in the frequencies.

Also, ended up settling with a 20hz/750hz/4khz crossover points for now. Seems to give the best dynamics and "live" sound. I ran it with the midrange covering 200hz to 7khz, making sure that I get the majority of the vocals from one set of speakers but that just doesn't seem to do much for me. The MS8 does very well with a crossover point right in the middle of the vocals. It seems like the TL has a null around 600hz and I think that was causing it to overcompensate by really cranking on the midrange. Now that the 10s cover that range, playing up to 750hz, along with being in a different location, there's no more peakiness in the midrange. I can listen to it with my vision going blurry and I almost never get fatigued.

I hate cars

Also wanted to add that once you have everything in acoustic phase, it seems like there's so much less power required to produce the same SPL or at least the same apparent SPL to your ears.

I got in the car this morning, almost scared to hear it because there have been plenty of times I've thought I had a great tune the day before only to be really disappointed the next day when I'm fresh. It sounded great today. The bass is probably the quickest and tightest it's ever sounded, I think most people would be shocked to see a pair of 15s back there. In fact I meant to take it by a local shop that said IB couldn't work and if it did it would be sloppy with no "cone control" lol. I plan to take it to them soon and lie about what's in the trunk until they hear it and give their opinions first.

I need to do a small amount of tuning on the tweeters, they're just a very tiny bit bright but it's so close I'm going to adjust in .5db increments with at least a day in between adjustments. I'm pretty sure this is the best it's sounded to date. This level of detail with almost no harshness is pretty amazing to me each time I turn it on. Percussion is just out of this world sharp. Finally it's sounding real enough that snare drums almost scare you like they would do in real life. I've got everything back to being relaxed with the new crossover points, very low excursion for every driver.

Modeling each driver in WinISD, the subs obviously have the most excursion but even at 20hz with the power available they will hardly hit the 19mm xmax and they're safe out to 25mm one way. The midbass at full rated amplifier power have 5.3mm of one way excursion (out of 13mm max one way), the midrange modeled with a max of .3mm excursion infinite baffle out of an available 10mm max. Everything is working in an extremely linear range and a range where dispersion is wide.

The 10" midbass has 5.3mm of excursion at rated amp power@70hz while the my favorite 6.5" midbass of all time has 7.25mm and the 10" is 3db louder at 70hz at the same power and 2mm less excursion. Where the 10" really shines is if I decide to turn the sub level up. The MS8 will lower the midbass crossover point and turn the volume up as well to maintain bass up front. This was where my 6.5" fell short. Starting with a 70hz highpass and then lowering it more while turning up the power just ran it out of displacement at high volumes.

Also interesting is that I'm back to a 70hz highpass on the midbass even though I have the capability to easily highpass them at 50hz without worrying about bottoming. Several reasons for that but now excursion is very low.

I'm starting to enjoy this hobby again. It's close enough to perfect that I'm back to enjoying the music with very little need to make adjustments. Still going to buy either a Bit One or PS8 though, but I'll probably hang on to the MS8 instead of selling it or burning it as I originally intended.

08TList

iTrader: (-1)

i wish i could build audio setups like these, my ms8 is sitting in my garage after i had it working for a few months and then it just stopped working, still don't know why

rich20730

That's awesome you've gotten back to enjoying the music. It's easy to get so caught up tweaking and changing things that you forget the original reason you spent all this time and money in the first place - The Music!

It's interesting you mentioned using the low pass on your amp in addition to the sub crossover on the MS-8. I tried the same thing recently on my setup and it really helped out a lot with sub to midbass transition and reducing localization. I think I got the idea from reading a post by sqshoestring on DIYMA where he said he used a double crossover to tame the peaks in the upper sub bass when he was running his 4 infinities IB.

I'm guessing the reason why adding the second filter works is because I typically have the sub gain up so high in relation to the rest of the frequency spectrum that even though my crossover point is set at 80hz with a 24db/oct slope, the actual crossover point is much higher due to the relative gain levels.

Do you have the option to use 36dB/oct or 48db/oct crossovers on the MS-8? I wonder if that would give you the same result.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I got that idea of using the LP on the sub amp also on DIYMA. Helped a little for sure. Still trying all the phase (technically polarity I guess) combo's in the car to see which is best. At the time I think the passenger mid flipped sounds a bit better. No telling if the polarity is swapped on the mid or not, who knows. Anyways, I'd really like to get an RTA on it sometime. Sucks not being able to really dial it in.

My other issue right now is my center stage. I need to play with my head position a little, but the stage center seems a little to the right most of the time with all the new calibrations lately.

My biggest issue is I just bought a brand new house and you know that that means...


time to revamp the HOME SETUP!!!

I hate cars

I can only do 6db-24db with the MS8. I can stack the amp's 24db filter on top of it. I also have the choice of using the amp's 12db filter but according to the experts that will flip my phase 180 degrees off so I only use the 24db filters.

As you've found, I think this can be useful for any setup. My subs have ultra low inductance, almost identical to my midranges. They have almost no natural roll off up top like a normal sub has. I can set the MS8's filter at 70hz/24db and still hear a lot of material get cut out when I flip the amp's filter on even with it at 100hz. I've found that using an additional 24db filter higher than the primary filter seems to really help with the localization issues while not hurting the impact of the subs.

I always thought two 24db filters at the same frequency would act the same as a single 48db filter but when I model it, WinISD shows that two 24db filters act like an even steeper filter. I don't know if that's right or not.

I'm going to use the amp's highpass on the midbass as well. Even with a 70hz highpass, they move a little on a 20hz tone and a lot on a 40hz tone. I might throw a 60hz highpass on them to cut out the lower frequencies even more.

If I remember right, Dyn does something similar on their passive crossovers for the tweeters. I believe it's a 3,500hz/12db highpass for the 3-way set and an additional 6db highpass somewhere lower down.

A nice IB home setup would be nice.

I've found that if I sit a little extra tall during calibration it helps bring the stage up. You should always do two calibrations for the driver's side, using the "passenger" designation for one of them while you're experimenting with this processor. It makes it possible to try back to back changes and see what they do.

rich20730

Yea, it's really like having an extra band of EQ. It actually frees up one of my parametric bands since I no longer have to make a cut in that area. I have the PXE low pass set at 80hz @ 24db/oct and I started with the amp low pass at 50hz @12db/oct. I gradually moved it up in 5hz increments during a long car trip until it sounded perfect. That was about a month ago and I haven't made a single adjustment since.

That's interesting about the phase shift with the 12db filter. Maybe I'll try flipping the phase back 180 on the amp to see if I notice any difference.

X2 on the home IB setup. I was really tempted to buy that pair of Fi IB3 18's that someone posted in the DIYMA Classifieds not too long ago. 2 18's with 30mm of xmax a piece would be awesome.

I hate cars

I wanted to buy those too! Over the past month there have been 4 of those subs for sale. That's a crazy amount of displacement.

Ironically, I'm trying to find a Bit One to buy. I've had a problem with my stage sometimes going away completely, tweeters getting harsh, subs betting bloated, and midranges getting nasally. It happens more in hotter weather. I originally thought it was the RIPS technology of the JL amps but it's looking like it's the MS8 being flaky as usual. Trying to find a Bit One tonight or tomorrow. I would really like to be able to install it by the weekend but that's probably impossible.