Teflon has worked great for everything to keep things clean where dirt and water just glides off. Does anyone have an experience with these new car car products by dupont which use teflon? At least these are new to me, curious to hear what you think. Teflon seems to be a great product

 

Moreace,
I'm a bit skeptical. I once saw an article in a car detailing book. It reported that somebody once asked DuPont is teflon would be beneficial on cars, and the answer was something like "yes, if you bake it on at 600 degrees". They could come up with no valid reasons that it would help repel dirt on metal or in the carpet. Isn't all of this stuff the Emporer's new clothes? Can you really tell whether it is doing a good job? Just like the aftermarket rustproofing. Unless you buy two of the same car, treat one and not the other, and drive them side-by-side for ten years, I doubt that you will ever be able to validate the claims that these companies make. I'll put my money in maintenance and wax, etc., where I can see an immediate difference.

 

You may think that these products are doing a good job because of the teflon, but take a look--teflon is usually not the main ingredient. My guess is that if you take teflon out of them, you would still have a product that is materially the same as with the teflon.

Any chemical engineers care to comment?

 

i was reading on autopia about the dupont product and almost everyone says its full of crap. i can't imagine the teflon bonding to your car with just elbo grease.

 

Teflon must be bonded to the desired surface with super high heat of 2000 degrees or something like that.

Teflon in some wipe-on product is only a big wank. Don't buy into it.

 

To clear the Teflon question up:
Teflon is only beneficial as a single solitary coating. In order to accomplish this with your car, you would need to coat the entire car with fibers and bring the temperature up to 600F (think coating on your non stick cooking pans). Teflon imbedded in a wax is nothing more than a wax. It sounds great for marketing directors, but has little to no added benefit to your finish.

 

That clears it up?

Rather than spout bilge water, I contacted DuPont several weeks ago and spoke to one of the research chemists. While DuPont in the past did not endorse the use of Teflon in waxes, further research and experimentation on their part made them reconsider. They found benefits and have formulated a line of car care products.

Fluoropolymers, of which Teflon (PTFE) is one, can be made in many forms. Just because it takes one technique to plate it onto cookware does not make even the slightest argument to say that it cannot be used in another form to bolster a car wax, There are things called PTFE resins, buckos, which are liquids, and when applied to a prorous sirface like automobile paint, can do what polymers do well - mchanically bond to the paint.

DuPont still does not recommend using PTFE in any form in engines, so Slick-50 remains snake oil.

Now that may clear the Teflon question up (facts have a way of doing that).

 

Is it still considered a fact when it is a representative of the manufacturer who recommends using the product?? (Wasn't it the research scientists for the Tobacco companies who denied putting additives with addictive properties into cigarettes?)

It may indeed be the best thing since pop-tarts, but wouldn't it be more persuasive if the info came from an independent researcher?

 

That is up to you. But PTFE resins are in common use in aerospace - you just have to know where to look.

And you are also wrong about the tobacco issue - please cite what "additives with addictive properties" have ever been put into cigarettes? If you recall, NBC claimed this, and Philip Morris was able to prove to a Court's satisfaction (imagine that) that NBC's assertions were completely without merit, and the settlement involved a lot of money, and NBC's public apology to PM USA on air. Is that what you are talking about? - be wise to get your facts straight on both these issues. Ans it is a red herring argument anyway, to demean DuPont by citing a tobacco company - red herrings should be left to NBC, or the great journalism of CBS and Mr. Rather(not get the facts straight).

 

Actually, the cookware example is the same as your mechanical bond discussion. Historically, there are two processes to get a nonstick surface to the pan (one mechanical, one chemical). The mechanical process calls for a metal surface to be scoured, Teflon applied, and then sintered. The Teflon in this process mechanically bonds to the surface. This explains why scraping a metal fork across the surface causes the coating to deteriorate.

I agree with the porous paint description and the mechanical bonding with some reservation. PTFE only comes in two major forms: bulk granulation and water based dispersion forms. Teflon granulation is available in a fine powder form (2 microns). So theoretically, it is possible for the mechanical bonding that RR describes since the resins which you describe (as mostly used in aerospace) are granulation resins. Most of these resins are used to create plastic parts and gasketing not wax planes. To gain the benefits of Teflon (resistance to chemicals, low coefficient of friction) this would only be true if the ratio of Teflon to “other stuff” is very very high. Again, to gain the full benefits of PTFE, the Teflon coated product must be raised to a temperature of 620F. I’m sure that I will hear the argument about pipe tape, but Teflon tape is also sintered at 620F and is used as a sealant not a protectant.

Let’s play hypothetical situation for a moment. Admittingly, I have not read the label on the wax, but let’s assume that you are getting 1 pound of Teflon per bottle (current price on Teflon bulk chem is something like 12$/lb). How much wax will you be using from that bottle to gain the benefit of the Teflon? Also, if you consider the amount of wax that you are using on the TLs surface area, do you use the entire bottle or does the small amount you use help?

More on Teflon.
PTFE is a completely fluorinated polymer with the linear molecular structure of repeating
-CF2-CF2-CF2-
Hence PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene)
PTFE has an extremely high melting viscosity with does not allow it to be manufactured under normal plastic molding processes. Fine granulations are mixed with processing aides, and extruded under high pressure (700psi) and temperature (620F).

RR…..what wax did you say you were using?

http://www.pts106.com/Teflon.htm


-z

PS – DuPont sold a major portion of it’s Teflon business 6 months ago so I hope your chemist friend has another job.

 

Moving to Wash & Wax...

 

~One man’s opinion / observations~

Below is a quote from Dupont, to-date they have not revised their comments, until they do IMO all companies are doing is paying a royalty fee to Dupont for the use of their name and using ‘brand name recognition’ to market a product.

Teflon Ž:
A synthetic polymer formula produced by Dupont Chemicals, they state;" The addition of a TeflonŽ fluoropolymer paint does nothing to enhance the properties of any car wax, we have no data that indicates the use of TeflonŽ to be beneficial in car waxes. TeflonŽ requires a temperature of 680°F for it to sinter or bond to a surface."

~Hope this helps~

Knowledge unshared is experience wasted
justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon

 

The Teflon wheel and tire cleaner is the best I have ever used.
The car is 8 months old and I have yet to use a brush on the wheels.

 

Nice try - perhaps you did not know this, but that quote is about 15 years old. technology and opinions change.

Here is a patent that was granted to one surface treatment, and there are refs to Dow Corning monographs. I just put my car in a huge ION PLASMA room at the Lab.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/5,081,171

 

Similar, but distinct patent:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/4,284,668

 

Finally, 3M continues to explore new technologies. I am using this:
http://www.autogeek.net/3mpershowcar.html

This formulation produces a durable, shiny, slick surfaces; its designs...

"...incorporate an advanced, acrylic silicone fluoropolymer (A.S.F.) which was developed by the research chemists at 3M. this fluoropolymer was created by chemically grafting silicone and fluorine onto an acrylic backbone".

This is combined with carnauba wax in significant quantities, as well as montan wax.

I use the paste on a clean surface - the paste does not appear to have an polishingcombounds in it, so proper surface prep is required.

 

Road Rage- thanks for the information, it is worth investigation. Although I haven’t seen the mfg. of the waxes that contain Teflon explain its application method: wash the paint surface with an acid wash and apply the product with a high-speed rotary at 1500 – 1800 RPM to obtain surface heat.

And as for the ‘nice try’ I had no intention of ‘trying’ anything, this to the best of my knowledge was “best information’

FWIW- I wonder why this information has not been more widely available considering its patent application date 1992

~One man’s opinion / observations~

“A liquid composition for protecting a positively charged surface, the composition comprising: negatively charged polytetrafluoroethylene polymer resin particles and at least one member of the group consisting of methyltrimethoxysilane and an amino functional polysiloxane; whereby the negatively charged polytetrafluoroethylene molecules fuse to the surface upon exposure to ambient temperatures above about 68 degrees Fahrenheit.”

“In the process described in the above U.S. patent, a paint sealant composition in the form of a tetrafluoroethylene monomer and an abrasive compound are applied to the painted surface. The surface is then buffed so that the buffing action in conjunction with the abrasive compound produces sufficient heat to polymerize the tetrafluoroethylene monomer, thereby creating a protective layer of polymer over the painted surface.” http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...RS=PN/5,081,171

“buffing the paint sealant composition on the painted surface until sufficient heat is created to dissipate the dispersion carriers and to polymerize the tetrafluoroethylene monomer, so as to create a layer of a polymer over the painted surface.” When a final paint sealant is needed for application to the painted surface, the two chemical compositions, the Teflon and the silicone, of the two bottles are mixed together. This mixture will remain in a stable condition for approximately 24 hours. This allows ample time for the combined product to be applied to the painted surface of a standard size automobile in approximately one hour.

The use of silicone polymers has a twofold purpose: first, the silicones give enough lubricity to prevent an overheating condition when a buffing machine is being used, especially at the edges and sharp curves of painted surfaces, such as on fenders, hoods, and trunks of automobiles. Secondly, the activated silicone polymers form a seal over the layer of Teflon that now fills the valleys of the paint.

The process of depositing the pure Teflon in the paint and burning off the dispersants, by applying the two chemical compositions, is accomplished by the following procedure. As is normally undertaken with prior art procedures, an acid type cleaner is used to deep clean the pores of the paint and is then rinsed off and the surface dried with a clean towel of chamois. Next, the final product is applied in one circle onto the wool pile-buffing pad, and buffing a 3-foot by 3-foot area is commenced. The area is worked until all the final, combined product has been buffed out and the surface has a high gloss.

When a high gloss of the paint appears, the heat to dissipate the dispersion carriers is obtained. Continuing the buffing process after the high gloss is obtained allows the abrasive compound to create the necessary heat to burn off the dispersion carriers and to deposit the pure T.F.E. Teflon into the valleys of the paint to seal the entire surface of the paint from almost all elements. At this same instant, the silicones cross-link themselves to the entire surface so as to become physically bonded to the paint. More specifically, the silicones "plate" themselves on the surface in a continuous film. This takes place with little interference from other ingredients in the polish. The added buffing creates enough heat to burn off all of the optional cleaning fluids, the optional surfactants, the emulsifiers, etc. This leaves a continuity of surface plating of first, the pure Teflon, which is burned into the hills and valleys of the paint to create an impregnable barrier against paint destroying elements, and second, a bonded plating of pure silicone over the Teflon, which gives a durable protective coating that is totally unparalleled in this field today.

Tests have shown that when Teflon was used with silicones, emulsifiers, abrasives, solvents, surfactants, polydimethylsiloxanes and water; buffed into the painted surfaces with the buffing machine turning at 1500 to 1800 R.P.M. and using a wool pile pad with fibers of approximately one to one and one-half inches in length; and the buffing is continued after a high gloss is obtained; the resultant paint sealant is very durable. The durability of the polished surface has been tested by long exposure to 90.degree. Fahrenheit and greater heat and sunlight for long periods, subjected to the equivalent of 100 car washes, and exposed to salt and moisture laden air for two years, without any apparent discoloration, loss of gloss or paint deterioration. The use of a solvent type cleaner is used to remove a build up of detergent, road film and fall-out as needed. With a sufficiently skilled operator, speeds up to 3000 R.P.M. can be used for buffing.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...RS=PN/4,284,668

~Hope this helps~

Knowledge unshared is experience wasted
justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon

 

I did mean to imply you were trying to deceive - but that quote has been used a lot to disparage some good research of the last 10 years or so, and is ancient.

I like the 3M product very much (3M "Perfect-It Show Car Wax"). As I understand it, it is a re-packaging of their Marine product, which was designed for gel-coats and fiberglas, in the most hostile of environments - constant direct sun and salt. Good news is the car product is substantially cheaper.

The 3M product will last a very long time. I have done my cars 4 times, and have barely used a fraction of the container. It does not need to be machine applied, so the whole issue of heat is moot. I think it is a very advanced technology.

As to "why hasn't this been more widely known", I would say it has been known to me, but perhaps other companies do not want to license the technology, or as in the case of 3M, they simply lack the technical capacity to develop a new approach. The product mentioned in the patents I posted have been widely usded in the US Navy, for example, on such things as the protectant enclosures for radar and other sensors. Also, a product with this much technical "muscle" is not perhaops not considered a good marketing strategy - if things last too long, re-sale is down. Market demand.

I encourage you to question things - questioning is good.

 

Quote: I encourage you to question things - questioning is good.


I could not agree more (see signiture)- justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon

 

Cool! BTW, a fluorinated monomer can become a polymer in the presence of water (humidity). I believe that is the mode of operation of the 3M product, starting with its monomers in an acrylic form.

What is Montan Wax? It is man-made, from natural sources - lignite. It is part of your 8th-grade science cycle, with dead vegetal material changing into hydrocarbons.

http://www.cyberlipid.org/wax/wax0001.htm

Complete off-topic:
Might appeal to your acrhictect's "eye" and mind"
I am building a pair of these loudspeakers (boxless) out of sapele veneers.

www.linkwitzlab.com see the Orion project. They are amazing (I am an audio reviewer as well as a car guy).

 

I had a guy come up to be yesterday in a parking lot and gave me his card. Says he does detailing so i figured I would ask him some questions.

He says he uses Teflon and how its the best on the market. Says i will never need to wash my car again, just use a duster on it.

So he comments on how smooth my paint is and asked me what i used. So i named off a bunch of things like S100, Poorboys, pinnacle, etc... he says he has never heard of any of it. (trying to make me look dumb). So i told him that most of the products i use are recommended by guys online. He goes "oh like zymol?"

Anyways, how is teflon these days? He says he charges $200 to put it on and how its the best thing out right now.

 

I agree, I am no chemical engineer, but I agree that these teflon additives that are put into the waxes are beneficial. I think that the normal process for bonding teflon onto surfaces is true for one form of its chemical composition but i dont know where i read that PTFE's could be modified to adhere mechanically/chemically in another form such as a wax form.

On the other hand I also think it is overhyped by marketing to take advantage of its already well established brand name recognition to help products sell and generate cash flow. So its not something that i would particularly rush out to look for.

 

wow, this is great, good job on the research man, i like it when people get down to the nitty gritty!

 

Has anyone here actually buffed paint with a rotary spinning at 1800RPM and a wool pad? I've been using a rotary for almost 10 years and just the idea of spinning a wool pad that fast on paint gives me shivers. Later in that same paragraph they mention 3000 RPM - I'd *love* to see that.

 

so whats the final verdict on teflon coating? and has any1 actually used it?

 

One would think, if it was worth a damn, "everyone would be doing it?"
Simply said, if it works, dont you think its availability would be rather widespread by major manufacturing companies?

 

[According to G.R. Ansul of DuPont's Car Care Products, Specialty Products Division, [The addition of a TeflonŽ flouropolymer resin (PTFE) does nothing to enhance the properties of a car wax. We have no data that indicates the use of TeflonŽ fluoropolymer resins is beneficial in car waxes, and we have not seen data from other people that support this position." Manufacturers of gimmicky, over-hyped products sometimes claim that their products contain TeflonŽ, hoping that the consumer will believe there is something special about that product.

Ansul also notes that, "Unless TeflonŽ is applied at 700 degrees F, and using a dissolving chemical C8, it is not a viable ingredient, and is 100 percent useless in protecting the paint's finish." This is hot enough that your car's paint (let alone your car) wouldn't survive.] Automotive Detailing; Inside and out by J Miller