JM2010 SH-AWD

Amazing to me that they moan about the 66K price tag, but then wax about the German cars and all they offer that is better (without any specific details). Have they ever looked at the price tag of all those fabulous German doo-dads? More than 66K in a car this size.


As some on here have said, you either get the SH RLX or you don't. Clearly these guys don't.

hondamore

^^I agree...too many auto reviewers have reached their conclusions about the Sport Hybrid RLX before they've even driven it and often base their negativity on the PAWS version they drove a couple of years ago. The net result seems to be a canned RLX Sport Hybrid review of: " this is great, this is great, that is really great, but I hate it for (insert completely subjective reason here) and I must be right because it isn't selling".

holografique

^^ I disagree. I think that last article points out all the "hard truths" as to the continued and ongoing abysmal sales of the RLX as a whole. Not enough distinction between it and the Honda brand to warrant it's price. It's a shadow car made for "Honda" people only, and even then it's hard to get them to buy into it.

This whole "you either get it or you don't" attitude is not a strategy for a car company that is trying to up their ranks and improve their stance. Brands that have solid and unwavering recognition in the market can afford to do things like that. Acura is not one of them, at least not at this point in time. They need to fire on all cylinders to get themselves out of the hole they partially dug themselves into. Once they come up out of it (and prove they can continue to stay the course and stay out of it), then they can afford the luxury of creating niche vehicles that you "either get or you don't".

Audi sold 1,700+ A6's last month alone. 18,800+ YTD.
Lexus sold 1,500+ GS vehicles last month, with a peak of 2,300+ in March alone. 17,500+ YTD.
I'm sure MB E-class sits close to the same...

If you think the market is slim for vehicles in the upper $50-$60k range, you're wrong. The market is there. Acura just doesn't know how to tap into it yet as shown with the RLX...

Just my 2 cents. No one get all uppity.

Malibu Flyer

While we can all have our own opinions about what is wrong with Acura and the mistakes they have made, the market has spoken.......the RLX hasn't sold. Initially I thought this was due to the botched early marketing and internal changes at the company. Well, the car has been out for 3 model years and it plain has been a dud in the market.

Even my beloved Sports Hybrid has not gotten much notice. I know there has not been many produced and it is hard to find even to test drive. Still, if it was wildly popular more would be brought to market. Reviews like the one above seem to express that it is at best just an Ok car. Important, independent sources like Comsumer Report which rate the PAWS as one of the worst cars really hurt.

Meanwhile, I continue to really enjoy my Sport Hybrid. It has been I my garage for just over a year and I still look forward to getting into it because it is a joy to drive.

George Knighton

You know, I don't care.

Anytime Honda wants to build a car just for me, all they have to do is let me know.

:-)

Oh, god, please, please don't let the dealer call me when he gets an NSX.

hondamore

I believe your post confirms my point...you are judging and condemning the RLX Sport Hybrid based on sales figures of the PAWS version while your own impressions after driving the Sport Hybrid was glowing.

If we judge the Sport Hybrid on its own merit and NOT on the botched launch or the problems with the PAWS version, it is a great car. They've only sold a few because they've only made a few, but if this forum is any indication, the owners of those few are thrilled with the car. That is my point.

Malibu Flyer

Agreed but it is very hard to overcome the poor reviews and dismal sales of the PAWS. The RLX has a stigma as a model. The big distinction between the Sport Hybrid and PAWS is just "inside baseball" to the general public while the car geeks who hang out here know better. Unfortunately, they are just a small minority of the car buying public.

JM2010 SH-AWD

^^ I think Malibu nails it. The PAWS version suffered from some serious, non-Acuralike problems in the early going, added to the delay in getting to the market, the crazy number of trim levels, etc. The SH is a crazy good car at a great price, but there aren't enough car geeks in the know to move the needle much on sales.


Look at the TL. The 4G was a stiff-suspended sport sedan marketed -- at least in AWD trim -- to the enthusiast crowd. It sold OK. Acura then "softened it" with the TLX, and sales are soaring. There just aren't enough of us car geeks out there, but for some reason, Acura keeps building some cars for us (although I'm really disappointed they've cut us off from any MT options).

holografique

I don't think I'm judging or condemning anything. I'm stating a perspective based on hard facts.

Reminder: Lexus GS sold 2,300 vehicles in March 2015 alone. The RLX sold 2,900 YTD since Oct 2014.

2,900 YTD!

Sales numbers are the single most important measurement of how well a product fairs in the market. Who cares if you build the most amazing 100% flawless car if only 1 person buys it....what's the point? Car companies exist to create products that sell, generate profit, build a brand and hopefully build legacy. They can't built a brand and build a legacy if no one buys the products. It's a two-way street.

Everything that article stated that was wrong with the Sport-Hybrid were the same things shared with the PAWS. It's a boring looking car, and costs too much for what you get. He raved about the SH-AWD system, but again, that's for geeks, not the general buying public.

Yes, the SH is an awesome car. I may get one. But I don't represent the overall success of Acura as a brand and the success of the RLX product as a whole. It doesn't matter how many of us here on the forum love the SH, the plain hard truth is the RLX is a failure. And just because I like the SH, doesn't blind me to the fact that as a product, it is a failure to Acura.

holografique

The TLX on the other hand....is a f***ing home-run

holografique

Here's an example for some perspective of where I'm coming from:

I have a pretty exotic synthesizer in my studio that I purchased back in 2009 that I consider the "RLX" of synths. It was (and still is) a pretty incredible instrument. Doing things that many of its competitors only did half as good. And still today dont do quite as well.

But it was a complete abysmal failure for the company for several reasons:

1. Horrendous marketing
2. Waaay overpriced
2. Extremely poor quality control at the initial launch that led to hundreds of service repairs and product returns.
3. A very vocal community of users that voiced their dissastisfaction for a product at such a high price point.
4. No real attempt to resolve any of the above.

Ultimately the company discontinued the product and they lost their ass in money on the product. I happened to get one that had already been through service repairs and got it for a good price as a floor model. I still think its a killer instrument, but NONE of that negates the fact that it was a complete failure of a product for the company.

Have a great weekend.

TSX69

2016 Acura RLX Sport Hybrid: It's 'initially' impressive, 2B sure : Stltoday

"RLX" looks like a phone-text abbreviation. We wound up calling the car "Rolex."

But OMG, B4 U LOL, FYI: Like the watch, the 2016 Acura RLX Sport Hybrid is timely, techy and pricey.

It's timely in that it's a hybrid and it's pricey in its all-wheel-drive trim, which is the only way the hybrid comes. The price for the "base" RLX Hybrid "Technology Pkg." is north of 60-grand, while the top-trim "Advance Package" we drove is nearly 67-large (for the record, there's a non-hybrid, front-drive RLX that starts at about $56,000, but in my neighborhood, that's still pricey).

Ahh, but it's the car's tech quotient that makes this guy special. Our car, with the endless formal moniker of "Acura RLX Sport Hybrid SH-AWD w/Advance Package" (whew!), provided us everything but Super Bowl tickets. Among this hybrid's text abbreviations are:

• LDW (Lane Departure Warning)

• LKAS (Lane Keeping Assist System): Helps steer the car back into its lane when it's inadvertently drifting.

• RDM (Road Departure Mitigation): It uses a windshield-mounted camera to monitor solid and dash-painted lane lines to help keep the car from fantasizing it's a Jeep and going off road.

• BSI (Blind Spot Information)

• SH-AWD (the modestly-named Super Handling All-Wheel Drive)

New for 2016 is AcuraWatch, which uses cameras and radar to spot vehicles, pedestrians and other things in the road that could possibly cause unpleasantness, warning the driver and even helping avoid or mitigate the severity of any collision.

On the road, RLX, with its techy push-button transmission, drives like the luxury sedan it is. Hybrid or not, this car doesn't lack power, thanks to a lusty, 310-hp V-6 assisted by a lithium-ion battery pack and 3 (!) electric motors. It all adds up to 377 total-system horsepower and 341 lb.-ft. of total-system torque.

By luxury-car standards, fuel economy is great — 30 mpg combined. By hybrid standards, fuel economy is lousy — 30 mpg combined. We got 26.

RLX’s sumptuous cabin is roomy and quiet and the car’s demeanor, thanks to all those acronyms and its twin, torque-vectoring rear-wheel electric motors, is confident.

Managing all the 21st century climate, navigation and connectivity technology are more screens than Wehrenberg. There’s a learning curve, to be sure.

RLX blends luxury and power with safety and connectivity technology, all in a tony ride for the smartphone generation. Automotively speaking, it could be your BFF.

sooththetruth

Well......., there have been some critics that really get the hybrid, and say they like it. But compare that to the RAVE REVIEWS that the Mazda 3 and 6 get. I want to blame a lot of the failure on the poor execution of the P-AWS, but the critics should know better. They drive cars all day. The car is REALLY expensive for the DRIVING EXPERIENCE most critics perceive. Clearly, the buyers on this board are eclectic, and even though it's cool to call ourselves that, the cars are going to have worse resale, and will not appeal to anyone to whom panache matters. Hey, I have belonged to this type of club all my life. I bought Saabs before they were cool, and bought early Diesels, and wanted Audi's before everyone else wanted one. But this car is not making it, and I don't know what Acura can do to fix it, and the critics on Autoweek are suggesting a RLX HYBRID price of $40K!!!>??? . Even I think that's crazy. But does it speak to the inability of most people to feel the "qualities" of the car?

They hate the infotainment duplication, and that is a repeated complaint by many critics, but I consider that subjective, and therefore it's repeated in lemming fashion. THE INSULT ABOUT THE PERFECTLY CAMOUFLAGED CAR PARKED BY THE ROADSIDE is just stupid. The car is very attractive in person, and is infinitely more so than that of the origami of Korean cars and Cadillacs (note, cadillacs aren't selling at their list prices, either). Audi's have even less Origami than the RLX and they sell, though.

So, in the end, I do think that marketing has mattered, and when it came out, Acura did not have the financial strength to execute and launch it correctly. I believe the NON LUXURY, MORE SPORTY RIDE, on the P-AWS was chosen because the P-AWS itself would suggest a unique niche for the car. But the ride was so bad, and the benefit to handling so cleverly concealed, that the plan failed. And do I think that the ability to pay for advertisement has anything to do with the way the car magazines review vehicles? Yes, I do.

Sadly, I think a Chevy Malibu, now, is a better value than the RLX HYBRID. Great gas mileage, big interior, amazingly quiet, more comfortable ride, and less than half the price. No panache, of course, but neither has the RLX, apparently. An all wheel drive Legacy has more panache than an RLX, and the Subaru interior is a BOX, it's so ugly. The Harmon Kardon (sp?) stereo poorly executed despite the power.

The RLX may prove to be the Acura Edsel.

Ugpo

Sooth, you make some interesting points but you lost me in the second last paragraph. Here's the thing, when reviewing anything in the world of luxury, it will be out measured by something less expensive but as soon as one does that they have just taken themselves out of the luxury profile. All luxury vehicles will have huge diminishing returns versus something more practical but that's just what luxury is.

Your earlier point alluding to marketing and branding is spot on, but that said there are a lot of sheep who are impressionable to clever marketing and its a healthy percentage of potential buyers.

Most of us here have voted with our wallets and I would hope its enough to keep Acura on the path with Hybrid technology and increased performance. Just maybe invest in some marketing.

OK, one last point, I hear lots about criticism on the dual screen and the graphics. Audi certainly does have better graphics but the cost of those graphics comes in time when you start the car. It actually takes 30 seconds+ just to wait for it to fully wake up. I am already on the road and halfway down the block, what a PITA. Anyway my thinking is that the reason Acura kept it simple was for boot up times? Just a theory.

sooththetruth

In fact, you just helped me understand myself better. I guess I am a value buyer. I found my '88 Acura Legend Coupe a great value for 9 years, also my '98 GS400 for another 9. I don't think I appreciate luxury without value.

Seriously, I consider big trunk space in my Luxury car a value.

I will graciously accept ridicule, but I am kinda happy just for the insight you gave me.

Ugpo

Glad I could help?

Being a value shopper and being able to afford luxury, well that just makes for a shrewd buyer. No ridicule from me, great cars in your past by the way.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Maybe one way people can afford to be luxury shoppers is that they were/are value shoppers?

holografique

Agreed, except that in the case of the RLX, the diminishing returns are even worse than normal as a result of the poor overall job Acura did on making a vehicle that competes well in it's class. And that is the crux of the issue at hand.

The market has spoken and what's done is done. Now its about how they fix it, assuming they just don't "can" the RLX all together. IMO it comes down to:

1. more appealing and attractive styling. (make people feel excited about looking at a $60k+ car)

2. higher quality control (build it here in the US)

3. better value/features for the cost

4. better and more aggressive marketing

That is how I believe they can fix the RLX. The reason I believe that's all it takes is because those are essentially the same steps they took to save the TL...hence the TLX. Which if you havent seen lately...is selling like fresh hotcakes at IHOP

That said, I think it's safe to say that regardless of how poor the RLX has done, the SH-AWD hybrid drive-train is a major success for them in terms of working execution of the technology, and all the signs and indications show we will likely see more of it outside of just the new NSX.

George Knighton

Was there any point in Honda history that the Legend or RL was regarded as an industry dominating triumph?

Or has it always been a niche vehicle into which people could move at some point that they'd be done with the Civic and Integra phase that got them into Honda in the first place?

I'm thinking of Ichishima, who fell into an S2000/Legend (SH-AWD) loop and just stayed there.

George Knighton

You can tell from the look on Tatsuru's face the one place they show him...he does not like what is going on.

I don't like this, either, but it shows the crazy crap that people get up to.

I honestly think that if you don't know that this is what we're up to sometimes, you don't understand why they're giving us these cars.

:-)

I cannot imagine that anybody ever thought they'd make money on the Legend/RL/RLX line of cars. From the moment they put SH-AWD on the first Legend, I believe they began to build cars for their own niche market, and Cadillac buyers be damned.

wstr75

George, once again I am in learning mode from something you posted. I said to myself who is Ichishima? This obviously led to Google getting involved:

The Temple Of Vtec: Spoon Sports' Type One - Speedhunters

Nice looking operation.

George Knighton

He's an icon in part of the Honda World.

Although his companies have become a huge undertaking, he maintains a personable, anti-ego kind of presence that defies his success.

With some companies like Mugen, you get the feeling that you never really know who's in charge, that there's a mythical board of directors somewhere that you'll never meet.

With Spoon, he's right there talking to young people in their cheap cars.

He doesn't make it to the East Coast very often, but he's usually on the West Coast at least once/year for the Thunderhill endurance race of 25 hours. Sometimes he's driving a blue/yellow Spoon S2000 himself for much of the race.

He first came to Honda's attention by making parts for the N1 Series. This is a famous Japanese endurance series that requires the cars to be basically stock, within certain parameters that would allow him to make parts that are basically the same but longer live'd, higher strength.

He came to Honda's attention in an adverse way when he walked away from the EP3 CTR, saying it was hopeless for N1 because of the restricted suspension travel in the rear. You might remember that Realtime was given an exemption in North America to relocate the suspension pickup points of the DC5 (basically the same as an EP3 but with a trunk), in order for Realtime to be able to race the RSX before they moved to the TSX.

Personally, he's settled on the S2000 and the Legend as his personal cars, although his team are always researching for other Honda cars and producing high strength endurance parts for them.

He's just a generally all around, personable nice guy who doesn't mind talking to people, despite his celebrity status.

neuronbob

Ichi-san I'd love to meet the legend in person.

sooththetruth

Loved the article. Great that people like that exist. I humbly respect those people imbued with greatness, and humility.

holografique

fun video! NSX and RL racin hard. might have to take my RLX down to Atlanta Motor Speedway.

I dont see how this is relevant though. If Honda/Acura were truly just making a niche car for real car nerds, then why all the effort they've tried to put into selling the car at the onset of the release? All the posturing and positioning of what is supposed to a "flagship" vehicle? All the tours and local test drive events? All the competitive language about larger legroom than the competing class vehicle? I just don't buy it. Those are not things you do if you are truly just wanting to make a low volume, niche vehicle. None of it adds up.

Everything thats gone wrong with the RLX has had nothing to do with performance. I dont think anyone here on this forum or even in reviews have questioned how the car performs, especially the Hybrid.

Like I said once before: the RLX is confused and is why IMO it failed. You dont take a super sexy fun sports car and outfit it in a highly conservstive anonymous "suit". You end up confusing both sides of the "fence". On one side, buyers looking for a classy luxury conservative vehicle feel the car is not up to "snuff", either lacking higher quality luxury amenities all the way to a far more non-compliant ride than it's competitors for the same competing class. (and that assumes you can even pull their attention away from the panache of the big three germans). While on the other side, buyers looking for a high performance "sports" sedan dont even consider the RLX cause it just flat out looks boring and does nothing to invoke a visual sense of sexy "performance". No one is saying "damn, that RLX looks hot! I need to go test drive that thing and see how it performs!" You wanna tap into the M/AMG/S-line market of buyers and command almost $70k for a sexy high-performance advanced drive-train and make them actually care about it? Then your design has to look hot. Period.

All that leaves us with is the 150-200 or so a month oddballs that end up right in the middle liking the confused mix of features, styling and performance that is the RLX.

Malibu Flyer

I got an interesting marketing piece from Acura central.....it's a magazine called APEX which is primarily a marketing piece for the new NSX. There is a page each for the MDX, TSX and the ILX. Yes that is correct there is NO mention of the RLX even though it shares some of the basic technology as the NSX.

The magazine has about 50 pages of background on the new NSX.

Is Acura abandoning the RLX completely or just waiting for the 2017 MMC, having given up on the current RLX iteration? Either way I'll bet there are currently some very good prices on the current RLX and even better values as the year winds down.

Who else has seen this marketing piece? [it was mailed from Acura headquarters in Torrance, Ca which is about 20 miles from me so I may be a lot closer to the distribution point.]

neuronbob

^^^^
I thought only NSX owners were receiving that edition of Apex. I guess all Acura owners/lessees are receiving it. Having just seen, heard, and sat in the 2G NSX six days ago, I can't wait to get this in the mail.

Even so, experiencing what is close to the final NSX product was even better. Not that I want to buy one yet......I consider myself a future second or third owner. I don't buy my sports cars brand-new, after all.

As for the RLX, well, I personally think the car will be discontinued in its current form after this model year. It's obvious to anyone with eyes that they've given up on it and they are busy trying to forget that it exists. Just look at the lack of response to the buggy navi system for the 2014 RLXs, I mean, there is no acknowledgement at all of the software issues we have raised repeatedly on this forum. Mechanical issues that could hurt people have gotten some attention, though.

At this point, the only question is whether there will be a new one next year (or some year in the future, after they've gotten NSX 2.0 out of the door), or whether the TLX SH-AWD will be the top sedan and the MDX the flagship vehicle (other than NSX) for some amount of time.

It's really too bad, too. The RLX was a few features and a better price away from respect.

pgeorg

I received it yesterday also. Pretty cool!

George Knighton

I thought it was the replacement for the former quarterly magazine we used to get.

I'm not as impressed with Apex as many people seem to be, although I appreciated the effort and presentation, and I appreciated having a few more pictures and a little more insight into the NSX Sport Hybrid, or the reiteration of things we already knew.

It was not cheap. Even the mailing envelope was expensive.

George Knighton

Why do you think that, exactly?

Even if it is a poor seller in the North American market, they still have to produce a Legend for other markets, so why not send a few here per year?

Also, as the dollar continues to hold its own, it becomes more viable to send the upscale versions of the Legend to us.

It's viable, but I'm not sure they're inclined. I guess we'll see. Personally, I don't see any identifiable inclination to stop selling them here. If you have any information you can define or disseminate, please let us know.

I'm remembering as I type this how very few of the 4G Legend/RL SH-AWD were being sold the last few years, but they soldiered on with it.

The 2016 cars seem to have an AcuraLink system that moves much faster than our 2014 models, if that's worth anything, or worth considering that perhaps this is how they addressed the issues.

You'll also notice that some well known reviewers who mercilessly panned the AcuraLink system in the 2014 RLX are saying good things about it in the 2016 models, as the basic systems have got faster and as Honda have made it clear that the two screen system was getting rolled out across the lines for a few years.

The NSX Sport Hybrid is the first one-screen AcuraLink that I've seen since the basic idea was created.

If by next year you mean a 2017 model year, then I don't think so.

If you mean 2018, then I think we're going to see a redesign and redeployment, although I think that we can predict that it will continue to be a FWD-bias design for reasons of basic efficiency.

ThatKidDeeJaay

A few days ago, I traded my 2014 Accord Ex-L V6 in for the 2016 RLX V6 Advance. I like it, but the RLX doesn't have the speed my Accord did, even in sport mode.

George Knighton

Why'd you trade your Accord so early?

fsmith

I got the APEX mailing, and immediately noticed that there was no mention of the RLX SH-AWD. A very expensive piece, I would add.

ThatKidDeeJaay

Everyone seems to have the Accord, I wanted to switch things up. Nothing was wrong with it, I also Traded my 14 Crosstour for an MDX.

neuronbob

All just my opinion.

After all, how long can the status quo continue? I happen to think my Sport Hybrid is a fantastic car, and I'm quite satisfied with the way it looks and operates. However, with zero marketing, low inventory, and correspondingly extremely poor sales, even worse than the RL it replaced, what can be a solid business plan for continuing the current model, even in PAWS form? Only Honda knows what their business plan is for this car, but a lack of transparency is not confidence-inspiring. You can't even test drive a Sport Hybrid in most markets and as we know, some dealers maintain as low a stock of PAWS RLX as possible. Most of the marketing effort next year appears to be centered, as it should be, on the NSX. How is the RLX supposed to break through all that hype?

The only place I'm aware of that its being sold other than in North America is in Japan, and while we don't know sales numbers there, they can't be large given the smaller market there. Is it being sold in China?

My comments on the buggy navi come from their lack of solution for 2014 owners. It's the only real sore spot I have with my car.

I'm no longer one of those who cares about whether the RLX is FWD-biased or lacks a V8, mostly because the Sport Hybrid system makes up for both in spades, and in part because I've already scratched the V8 itch. FWD is simply what Honda does, and I've been a big SH-AWD fan from the start.

I'm just openly wondering whether we will get a new RLX sooner than later given the near-disappearance of the current RLX from Acura's public radar. That HAS to mean something. I'd like another largish, sportyish, eSH-AWD sedan with impressive looks and super tech when my lease on this one is over. Am I asking too much?

George Knighton

Did you notice that each one is numbered?

LOL....

How very special does that make you feel?

George Knighton

I think that if you *are* viewing the USDM RLX as a sort of Super Accord, and if you're getting the deep discounts that we all seem to be getting on these cars, then the RLX presents a solid, reliable big car value.

:-)

I keep waiting to hear about the 9 AT in the 2016 RLX, though, and I'm not hearing anything about that.

Is the 9 AT not in the 2016 car?

George Knighton

If the 9 AT does for the RLX what it did for the MDX, then we're suddenly going to be thinking of the RLX as a sport sedan, again.

The 9 AT makes a significant difference in acceleration times. :-)

pgeorg

No, the 2016 RLX P-AWS still has the 6 speed auto......

JM2010 SH-AWD

Maybe the next RLX will feature the rumored 10-speed, house-built auto?