MLB: Official 2007 Post Season Thread
#122
Racer
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Last night was sick for Colorado. They played with a ton of heart....I don't see them going too far though.
Sox and Cubs in the World Series. Sox will take it down in 5 games.
Sox and Cubs in the World Series. Sox will take it down in 5 games.
#123
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Originally Posted by RaviNJCLs
How long have you been a METS fan?
YES, they choked.
YES, it sucks.
YES, the players dissappointed us all.
NO F-ING WAY do I wish I was not a METS fan. I'm used to the dissappointment. Looking forward to next season.
YES, they choked.
YES, it sucks.
YES, the players dissappointed us all.
NO F-ING WAY do I wish I was not a METS fan. I'm used to the dissappointment. Looking forward to next season.
Been a Met fan since the mid 90s, the only reason I said that was because its probably the worst collapse I've seen in my life time. I wasn't really serious about it, but I am curious what they are going to do this offseason, Lo Duca, Alou, Castillo, Glavine and Ramon Castro all have expiring contracts.
And they decided to keep Willie.
#124
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Originally Posted by salvo24
Last night was sick for Colorado. They played with a ton of heart....I don't see them going too far though.
Sox and Cubs in the World Series. Sox will take it down in 5 games.
Sox and Cubs in the World Series. Sox will take it down in 5 games.
no way are the cubs making it the WS, I say Colorado has a better chance than them.
#125
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Originally Posted by JediMindTricks
holliday or rollins?
i think holliday will get it.
regardless, i had both on my fantasy team so i hope it's a tie!
i think holliday will get it.
regardless, i had both on my fantasy team so i hope it's a tie!
People are going to hate me for this, but I think Howard has a better shot at MVP award than Rollins, he was a big reason why they came back, and lets not forget he hit a HR in each of the last 4 phillies games and 5 of 6.
Also his numbers are pretty good, except BA, .268 94R 47HR 136RBI.
But Holliday should get it without a question, sole reason why they are in the playoffs he is a great player.
#126
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Originally Posted by JediMindTricks
glad to see that helton will finally get to play in the playoffs.
#127
Benchwarmer
Originally Posted by Eoanou
People are going to hate me for this, but I think Howard has a better shot at MVP award than Rollins, he was a big reason why they came back, and lets not forget he hit a HR in each of the last 4 phillies games and 5 of 6.
Also his numbers are pretty good, except BA, .268 94R 47HR 136RBI.
But Holliday should get it without a question, sole reason why they are in the playoffs he is a great player.
Also his numbers are pretty good, except BA, .268 94R 47HR 136RBI.
But Holliday should get it without a question, sole reason why they are in the playoffs he is a great player.
#129
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Originally Posted by IlliNorge
And he set the ML record for strikeouts in a season. And his defense is horrible.
And yet his OBP is almost 50 points higher than Rollins, . 392 to .344.
#131
Originally Posted by IlliNorge
And he set the ML record for strikeouts in a season. And his defense is horrible.
I was wrong.
He produces. Who cares how he makes his outs? And as Eoanou points out...he has nearly 400 OBP...so he doesn't make a lot of outs.
#132
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Originally Posted by Pull_T
In 2007, I assumed anyone who discussed baseball in any serious manner did not see strikeouts as a meaningful measure of a hitter's quality.
I was wrong.
He produces. Who cares how he makes his outs?
I was wrong.
He produces. Who cares how he makes his outs?
Exactly, and even so Howard is 11th in the NL in .OBP DESPITE the poor BA, and 4th in the NL in Slugging.
#135
Benchwarmer
Originally Posted by Pull_T
In 2007, I assumed anyone who discussed baseball in any serious manner did not see strikeouts as a meaningful measure of a hitter's quality.
I was wrong.
He produces. Who cares how he makes his outs? And as Eoanou points out...he has nearly 400 OBP...so he doesn't make a lot of outs.
I was wrong.
He produces. Who cares how he makes his outs? And as Eoanou points out...he has nearly 400 OBP...so he doesn't make a lot of outs.
And his defense is horrible.
#136
Originally Posted by IlliNorge
A .268 BA with 200 strikeouts means he made a lot of outs, most of which were not productive (moving runners, sac flies). I'll take a guy who can hit for average and power, can move runners, can hit-and-run over an all or nothing guy. A bunch of RBI's is attributed to having Rollins and Utley ahead of him. A bunch of walks is attributed to having not much behind him.
And his defense is horrible.
And his defense is horrible.
2007
Rollins: 527 outs
Howard: 407 outs
Takes a WHOLE lot of "productive outs" to make up for all those additional outs. And there's really nothing wrong with not puttng the ball in play anyway...for all the "move the runner over" you get by slapping the ball into play, you also get more GDPs.
There's a reason why they call moving the runner over and putting the ball into play "little things"...the reason is that they are unimportant. You don't win ballgames with 9 Craig Counsells batting for you, but with 9 Ryan howards hitting, you'd score 8-10 runs a game.
Productive offensive baseball consists of avoiding outs/getting on base (OBP) and hitting extra base hits in order to drive in runs (slugging).
Batting average is irrelevant. Strikeouts are irrelevant.
Last edited by Pull_T; 10-02-2007 at 04:29 PM.
#137
Benchwarmer
Originally Posted by Pull_T
WTF does batting average have to do with the number of outs you make? OBP is a far better indicator at avoiding outs:
2007
Rollins: 527 outs
Howard: 407 outs
Takes a WHOLE lot of "productive outs" to make up for all those additional outs. And there's really nothing wrong with not puttng the ball in play anyway...for all the "move the runner over" you get by slapping the ball into play, you also get more GDPs.
There's a reason why they call moving the runner over and putting the ball into play "little things"...the reason is that they are unimportant. You don't win ballgames with 9 Craig Counsells batting for you, but with 9 Ryan howards hitting, you'd score 8-10 runs a game.
Productive offensive baseball consists of avoiding outs/getting on base (OBP) and hitting extra base hits in order to drive in runs (slugging).
Batting average is irrelevant. Strikeouts are irrelevant.
2007
Rollins: 527 outs
Howard: 407 outs
Takes a WHOLE lot of "productive outs" to make up for all those additional outs. And there's really nothing wrong with not puttng the ball in play anyway...for all the "move the runner over" you get by slapping the ball into play, you also get more GDPs.
There's a reason why they call moving the runner over and putting the ball into play "little things"...the reason is that they are unimportant. You don't win ballgames with 9 Craig Counsells batting for you, but with 9 Ryan howards hitting, you'd score 8-10 runs a game.
Productive offensive baseball consists of avoiding outs/getting on base (OBP) and hitting extra base hits in order to drive in runs (slugging).
Batting average is irrelevant. Strikeouts are irrelevant.
You need a mix of Counsells (or Rollinses in this case) and Howards for productive offensive baseball. Tell Ozzie Guillen little things are unimportant. The Twins won the AL Central 4 out of 5 years without anybody hitting 30 HR's.
And you keep ignoring the fact that 9 Ryan Howards on defense would allow 8-10 runs a game easily. Howard's defense is horrible. That plays into why he should not get the MVP over Rollins.
#138
Originally Posted by IlliNorge
And Rollins had some 50 more plate appearances. OBP is always inflated for cleanup hitters with weak #5 and #6 hitters behind. That's why they get walked. Managers aren't stupid.
And cleanup hitters like Howard get walked because they are the most dangerous hitters. Managers aren't stupid, I agree.
And rarely are #5 hitters "weak". No less weak than the typical #2 hitter. Rollins hits in front of Iguchi and Victorino. Howard hits in front of Rowand. Now who has weak hitters behind him?
Originally Posted by IlliNorge
You need a mix of Counsells (or Rollinses in this case) and Howards for productive offensive baseball. Tell Ozzie Guillen little things are unimportant. The Twins won the AL Central 4 out of 5 years without anybody hitting 30 HR's.
Originally Posted by Illinorge
And you keep ignoring the fact that 9 Ryan Howards on defense would allow 8-10 runs a game easily. Howard's defense is horrible. That plays into why he should not get the MVP over Rollins.
You are the one who brought up his "strikeouts" and batting average...I was responding to that. Those figures are irrelevant, and Howard is clearly the more productive offensive player. Is Rollins' defense superior to such a degree that it surpasses Howard's overall value? I don't think so, but that's just a judgement call.
I would rate Rollins pretty average (maybe 8th- or 9th best) and I would rate Howard as being in the bottom few 1B in the NL. I'd say Adam Everrett, Alex Gonzalez, Greene, Eckstien, Wilson and Jose Reyes are all better shortstops...and Vizquel, though not at his prime is at least still his equal.
If Rollins were the best or of the best 2-3 shortstops, i might buy into his defensive value making him better oerall than Howard. But he's average.
Last edited by Pull_T; 10-02-2007 at 05:32 PM.
#139
Benchwarmer
Hollins hits leadoff, so he'll never get walked intentionally. If you hit Howard leadoff or even 3rd, he probably sees more pitches. I do think defense (and SB and speed) play a decent role in MVP voting. It's why you'll never see Ortiz win the award. Howard is basically a DH stuck in the NL.
But fair enough. You present a good argument. I like Holliday over both these guys.
But fair enough. You present a good argument. I like Holliday over both these guys.
#140
I prefer Holliday, too. But he won't win because he'll be devalued too much by Coors. With the humidor, it's really no hitter-friendly than Citizen's Bank, but the stigma from the old days is still there.
And Rollins will win...I just don't prefer him over Holliday and Howard.
And Rollins will win...I just don't prefer him over Holliday and Howard.
#141
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Originally Posted by IlliNorge
Hollins hits leadoff, so he'll never get walked intentionally. If you hit Howard leadoff or even 3rd, he probably sees more pitches. I do think defense (and SB and speed) play a decent role in MVP voting. It's why you'll never see Ortiz win the award. Howard is basically a DH stuck in the NL.
But fair enough. You present a good argument. I like Holliday over both these guys.
But fair enough. You present a good argument. I like Holliday over both these guys.
*Ahem* no mention of me, lol. j/k
I think we can all agree Holliday is cleary an extraordinary player and he probably contributed more to his team getting into the playoffs than any other player in the NL, he scored the winning run.
#142
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
I think the biggest appeal for Rollins winning MVP is his ability to score runs and steal bases and on top of that hit for power.
30HRs and 41SBs is pretty impressive, but his OBP is terrible, but you're argument that leadoff players never draw walks is false, Jose Reyes had 77BB this year compared to Rollins, who had 49, they both hit leadoff. Look at Ricky Henderson he is a prime example that anyone with a bit of patience at the plate can draw a walk.
30HRs and 41SBs is pretty impressive, but his OBP is terrible, but you're argument that leadoff players never draw walks is false, Jose Reyes had 77BB this year compared to Rollins, who had 49, they both hit leadoff. Look at Ricky Henderson he is a prime example that anyone with a bit of patience at the plate can draw a walk.
#143
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
On the topic of fielding here are some statistics for you guys,
Jimmy Rollins he is 3rd overall among NL SS this year in Fielding Percentage .985 with 11 errors, beat by Tulowitski and Visquel.
Ryan Howard has a .991 Fielding Percentage with 12 errors, but he played in 140 games compared to Rollins who played in 162. Also that also ranks 8th among 1B in the NL.
Just some stats.
Jimmy Rollins he is 3rd overall among NL SS this year in Fielding Percentage .985 with 11 errors, beat by Tulowitski and Visquel.
Ryan Howard has a .991 Fielding Percentage with 12 errors, but he played in 140 games compared to Rollins who played in 162. Also that also ranks 8th among 1B in the NL.
Just some stats.
#144
Well, can't compare fielding percentage between a 1B and a SS.
Rollins is a superior defender to Howard, but Rollins isn't top notch and Howard isn't god-awful either.
Rollins is a superior defender to Howard, but Rollins isn't top notch and Howard isn't god-awful either.
#145
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Originally Posted by Pull_T
Well, can't compare fielding percentage between a 1B and a SS.
Rollins is a superior defender to Howard, but Rollins isn't top notch and Howard isn't god-awful either.
Rollins is a superior defender to Howard, but Rollins isn't top notch and Howard isn't god-awful either.
Yeah, both positions have completely different dynamics.
#146
Three Wheelin'
iTrader: (1)
Originally Posted by Eoanou
I think the biggest appeal for Rollins winning MVP is his East Coast exposure
of note: Defense rarely gets factored in when voting for MVP (thats what the Gold Glove is for), its any consideration, its all the way on the bottom of the list. Unless the candidates have very very close numbers (like when Arod won out over Papi). Playoff contention, hr, ba, rbi's, ba w/risp are the stats that get mentioned the most, then they throw in the "value for the team" part to cone to their winner. I dont think they look for negatives (led the league in srikeouts, GIDPs, low walks) but more like add all the positives they bring to the table.
#147
101 years of heartache...
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I'm missing Illinois vs. Wisconsin to come home for the NLDS. My Cubbies best not leave me disappointed (probably will though)...
#148
Benchwarmer
Originally Posted by gocubsgo55
I'm missing Illinois vs. Wisconsin to come home for the NLDS. My Cubbies best not leave me disappointed (probably will though)...
#149
What Would Don Draper Do?
Originally Posted by Eoanou
I think the biggest appeal for Rollins winning MVP is his ability to score runs and steal bases and on top of that hit for power.
30HRs and 41SBs is pretty impressive, but his OBP is terrible, but you're argument that leadoff players never draw walks is false, Jose Reyes had 77BB this year compared to Rollins, who had 49, they both hit leadoff. Look at Ricky Henderson he is a prime example that anyone with a bit of patience at the plate can draw a walk.
30HRs and 41SBs is pretty impressive, but his OBP is terrible, but you're argument that leadoff players never draw walks is false, Jose Reyes had 77BB this year compared to Rollins, who had 49, they both hit leadoff. Look at Ricky Henderson he is a prime example that anyone with a bit of patience at the plate can draw a walk.
anyways, ichiro is also a leadoff hitter, who hardly ever walks.
#152
What Would Don Draper Do?
Originally Posted by Eoanou
But Ichiro's career BA is like .350, lol.
rollins isn't your typical leadoff hitter though. i think he's much better suited as a #2 hitter.
#153
Team Owner
iTrader: (4)
Originally Posted by JediMindTricks
haha yea...but i was just pointing out another leadoff hitter that hardly walks.
rollins isn't your typical leadoff hitter though. i think he's much better suited as a #2 hitter.
rollins isn't your typical leadoff hitter though. i think he's much better suited as a #2 hitter.
#154
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Originally Posted by JediMindTricks
haha yea...but i was just pointing out another leadoff hitter that hardly walks.
rollins isn't your typical leadoff hitter though. i think he's much better suited as a #2 hitter.
rollins isn't your typical leadoff hitter though. i think he's much better suited as a #2 hitter.
They would have put him at #2, but that's Victorino's spot.
#155
What Would Don Draper Do?
Originally Posted by Eoanou
They would have put him at #2, but that's Victorino's spot.
#156
Originally Posted by JediMindTricks
and 20 triples.
anyways, ichiro is also a leadoff hitter, who hardly ever walks.
anyways, ichiro is also a leadoff hitter, who hardly ever walks.
He's good...just not as good as many give him credit for.
He's the anti-Ryan Howard...all BA and no slugging
He has to hit .350 cause he doesn't walk and he has to steal bases because he doesn;t hit for any power. Not only does he not hit for HR...he doesn't even hit doubles with all that speed. He hits like 20 2Bs a year.
For all the hits he gets, is really no better than just walking since he only has 60 RBI a year slapping the ball around. He may hit .350, but his OBP is not much higher.
Again, I'm not saying Ichiro sucks...he's good...just doesn't do enough to be a $20M a year superstar and perinnial allstar
#157
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Ichiro had 49 walks this year, making his OBP .396, which ranks 9th in the NL. But you're right he rarely hits anything into the outfield, 22 Doubles, 7 Triples, and 6 Home Runs, granted a leadoff hitters role is to get on baseman.
#158
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
By the way speaking of leadoff hitters Chone Figgins has to be one of the best. He had only 440 ABs and has more Doubles, Walks and Steals than Ichiro, who had 670 ABs.
#159
Originally Posted by Eoanou
Ichiro had 49 walks this year, making his OBP .396, which ranks 9th in the NL. But you're right he rarely hits anything into the outfield, 22 Doubles, 7 Triples, and 6 Home Runs, granted a leadoff hitters role is to get on baseman.
And leadoff hitters' job is the same as any other hitter:
- Avoid outs (OBP)
- Put yourself in position to be driven in (SLG and runs)
- Drive in runners on base with extra base hits (SLG and RBI)
Ichiro is normally OK for OBP...better than average.
He slugs for crap, so for all the singles and SBs he has, he really doesn't score an absurd amount of runs. 100-110 a year...which is good, just not that many considering all those hits. In 2004 he had 262 hits and only 101 runs!!!
He does't drive in runners for crap. He has tons of hits that are choppers and infield slappers, so even a hit doesn't give a great chance of scoring a runner from second. Also, he doesn't drive the ball, so even a runner on third isn't gonna get a sac fly or productive out. It's basically single or nothing.