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2008-09 MLB Hot Stove Thread

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Old 12-10-2008, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by GIBSON6594
I'm a Met fan, buddy...

I just hate when people talk about something about which they have no clue. Those "points" you were trying to make were not points. They were inaccuracies, plain and simple. Don't start trying to point at me as the bad guy because I called out your nonsense. Just admit you were wrong and move on.
Calm down, buddy. I'll move on sir.
Old 12-10-2008, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GIBSON6594
To me this move stinks of desperation.
The Yankees perennially stink of desperation. When they blow up old Yankee Stadium the Bronx will absolutely reek.
Old 12-10-2008, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by IlliNorge
The Yankees perennially stink of desperation. When they blow up old Yankee Stadium the Bronx will absolutely reek.
It already stinks. Trust me
Old 12-10-2008, 02:36 PM
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The quote from Steve Rosenbloom of the Tribune...

Ben Sheets has drawn interest from Texas, so I guess it's official: He can't pitch anymore.
Old 12-10-2008, 02:42 PM
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Rosenbloom is ruthless attacking Chicago teams. Today he wrote that Lovie likes talking about "Bear Weather" and how it makes the opponents worse because Lovie can't figure out how to make his own team better.

The stuff he says about Ozzie makes Mariotti seem like a homer.
Old 12-10-2008, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by IlliNorge
Rosenbloom is ruthless attacking Chicago teams. Today he wrote that Lovie likes talking about "Bear Weather" and how it makes the opponents worse because Lovie can't figure out how to make his own team better.

The stuff he says about Ozzie makes Mariotti seem like a homer.


Well, Rozner of the Daily Herald is also pretty bad but at least there is some logic behind his commentary...However, I can bear both of them way better than Mariotti. His departure from the Sun-Times was truly a good-riddance.
Old 12-10-2008, 03:24 PM
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Ramon Hernandez traded to Reds.

Boston leading for Texeira.

Only offer for Manny from LA

Last edited by Doom878; 12-10-2008 at 03:27 PM.
Old 12-10-2008, 09:27 PM
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Sabathia takes 7 years $161M from the Yanks.

LAS VEGAS – Baseball’s perennial high-rollers, the New York Yankees, scored the biggest coup of the winter meetings when CC Sabathia reached preliminary agreement on a deal that will pay him $161 million over the next seven years.

The deal, according to a source close to negotiations, gives Sabathia the right to opt out of the contract after the first three years, by which time he will have been paid $69 million. Sabathia appreciated the clause because it satisfied concerns he had about living in New York and the impact it might have on his wife and three children.

He will make his opt-out decision after the 2011 season with four years and $92 million remaining on the deal, at which time he could renegotiate, leave or stay.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns
Old 12-11-2008, 07:07 AM
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Yes

The Mets finally got rid of Heilman.

But they had to give up Endy as well, I always liked his hustle and Jason Vargus who looks like he has some potential but he doesn't have what the Mets need now.

Mets get Putz as set-up man in huge trade

Associated Press

LAS VEGAS -- The New York Mets overhauled their much-maligned bullpen with two big moves Wednesday, obtaining J.J. Putz from Seattle as part of a three-team, 12-player trade that gives them a setup man for new closer Francisco Rodriguez.
Hours after completing a $37 million, three-year contract with Rodriguez, New York dealt seven players -- six to the Mariners and one to Cleveland -- to get three back in a huge swap at the winter meetings.
<!-- INLINE HEADSHOT (BEGIN) -->
Putz

<!-- INLINE HEADSHOT (END) -->"All I kept on hearing in the streets of New York when you go get bagels in the morning was, 'Omar, please address the bullpen,'" Mets general manager Omar Minaya said. "Well, to all you Mets fans, we've addressed the bullpen."
New York shipped reliever Aaron Heilman, outfielder Endy Chavez, lefty Jason Vargas and three minor leaguers to the Mariners for Putz, center fielder Jeremy Reed and reliever Sean Green in the first trade by new Seattle general manager Jack Zduriencik.
Promising outfielder Franklin Gutierrez was sent from the Indians to Seattle. Cleveland got reliever Joe Smith from the Mets and 23-year-old second baseman Luis Valbuena from the Mariners.
"It helps all of us," Zduriencik said.
Law: Mets Win Big

If J.J. Putz is healthy, the Mets got one of the best closers on the market ... again, Keith Law writes. Blog


An All-Star in 2007 when he saved 40 games, Putz was 6-5 with a 3.88 ERA and 15 saves in 23 chances last season when he missed long stretches with ribcage and elbow injuries. But Minaya wasn't concerned about the pitcher's health, saying New York had a scout at his final game of the season and Putz maintained a 98-99 mph velocity.
Before the trade was announced, Putz's agent, Craig Landis, said the right-hander wanted to remain a closer. But Minaya said he spoke with Putz, who was excited about his new team and role.
"It's about winning championships," Minaya said. "I've always said it's about the team and putting teams first and going for that ring. To win, you've got to sacrifice yourself."
The Indians had been interested in acquiring Putz before nearing a two-year contract with free-agent closer Kerry Wood, who needed to take a physical before that deal could be finalized.
Once the Indians closed in on Wood, the three-team trade came together quickly.
"We dealt from an area of depth," Cleveland GM Mark Shapiro said, referring to his club's young outfielders.
The key to the deal for Seattle was Gutierrez, who batted .248 with eight homers and 41 RBIs. A skilled defender, he played right field in Cleveland because the Indians have All-Star Grady Sizemore in center.
"That's one of the things that we wanted to do is make our defense stronger," Zduriencik said. "I think it's helped us shore up our prospect status."
Zduriencik said it was uncertain who would close for Seattle and too early to determine what role Heilman would have.
Heilman was inconsistent in his setup role with the Mets and would prefer to be a starter. He was 3-8 with a 5.21 ERA last season and was among the bullpen culprits as New York folded in September for the second straight season.
When Billy Wagner got hurt, the rest of the relievers struggled as they tried to adjust to different roles.
"We've proven that sometimes, unfortunately, one closer is not enough," Minaya said.
Smith, a submarine-style right-hander who gets plenty of grounders, was 6-3 with a 3.55 ERA.
"Joe Smith clearly goes right in the major league bullpen as a guy we've had long-term interest in," Shapiro said. "A different look, complements our 'pen well. We think he can be an important part of the back end of a 'pen."
The three minor leaguers New York sent to Seattle were first baseman Mike Carp, right-hander Maikel Cleto and outfielder Ezequiel Carrera.
Putz will earn $5.3 million next season, and the Mets inherit an $8.9 million option for 2010 with a $1 million buyout. New York had 29 blown saves in 72 chances this year, and its 4.25 bullpen ERA ranked 13th in the NL.
"To get one closer like Frankie would have been a good winter. I think to get two guys like this is a great winter," Minaya said.
Old 12-11-2008, 08:12 AM
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wow.. mets bullpen suddenly looks very good.
Old 12-11-2008, 09:02 AM
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Yesterday's news is why 99% of baseball fans hate NY.

The Yankees spend $23 mil a year for a pitcher while offering $18 mil a year to another pitcher.

The Mets throw their money around to acquire a solid closer to be a set up man for another closer with only one good year in his career (whom they are paying over $12 mil a year).

But that's baseball.
Old 12-11-2008, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by IlliNorge
Yesterday's news is why 99% of baseball fans hate NY.

The Yankees spend $23 mil a year for a pitcher while offering $18 mil a year to another pitcher.

The Mets throw their money around to acquire a solid closer to be a set up man for another closer with only one good year in his career (whom they are paying over $12 mil a year).

But that's baseball.
One good year? What have you been smoking today? K-rod leads all major league closers in saves over the past 3 years.
Old 12-11-2008, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by IlliNorge
Yesterday's news is why 99% of baseball fans hate NY.

The Yankees spend $23 mil a year for a pitcher while offering $18 mil a year to another pitcher.

The Mets throw their money around to acquire a solid closer to be a set up man for another closer with only one good year in his career (whom they are paying over $12 mil a year).

But that's baseball.
Also, what do you mean throw their money around? The Mets gave up 6 players and got back three. The payroll was hardly changed by these moves. They gave up two starters for two relievers, which is almost always an advantage for the team getting the starters.
Old 12-11-2008, 09:51 AM
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K-Rod has a career 2.35 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, and a 3/1 K/BB ratio. 3rd in CY and 6th in MVP this year. 4th in CY 2 other years.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/rodrifr03.shtml
Old 12-11-2008, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by GIBSON6594
One good year? What have you been smoking today? K-rod leads all major league closers in saves over the past 3 years.
Saves are overrated, big time. A save is about the only stat a guy like me can achieve. You give me a good defense, a 3-run lead, and I'll be able to get a save half the time with my 60 mph fastball.

It's like wins for starting pitchers or ERA for relievers. Rodriguez is very good. But he's no Papelbon, Rivera, or Nathan. Not even close.

As for the trade, the Mets get Putz, Reed, and Green. The other two teams get a total of 2 guys I've ever heard of. Only teams with money can make those kinds of deals.
Old 12-11-2008, 10:23 AM
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speaking of desperate moves...

Yankees send Melky Cabrera to Milwaukee for CC Sabathia's good friend Mike Cameron


:gheywave::gheyfight:
Old 12-11-2008, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Doom878
Ramon Hernandez traded to Reds.

Boston leading for Texeira.

Only offer for Manny from LA

Does Ramon Hernandez have anything left? Although he could have a terrible hitting year and still be an upgrade for us at the catcher position, it would just be our luck if he gets hurt the first month.

And good riddance to Freel...sure he was fun to watch but I think we were paying him $5 million to hang out on the DL all year.
Old 12-11-2008, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by sho_nuff1997
Sabathia takes 7 years $161M from the Yanks.



http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns
Sabathia appreciated the clause because it satisfied concerns he had about living in New York and the impact it might have on his wife and three children.
I've heard this before but aren't really sure what it means. Is it something specific he doesn't like? Can someone clarify please?
Old 12-11-2008, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by IlliNorge
Saves are overrated, big time. A save is about the only stat a guy like me can achieve. You give me a good defense, a 3-run lead, and I'll be able to get a save half the time with my 60 mph fastball.

It's like wins for starting pitchers or ERA for relievers. Rodriguez is very good. But he's no Papelbon, Rivera, or Nathan. Not even close.

As for the trade, the Mets get Putz, Reed, and Green. The other two teams get a total of 2 guys I've ever heard of. Only teams with money can make those kinds of deals.
Come on...look at the guys stats over the past four years. He has almost the same career ERA as Rivera, a better ERA than Nathan, if you look at relatively, his number are much better than Nathan all around. He blows them all away in Saves, except Rivera for obvious reasons.

Look at Doom's post. K-Rod is an elite closer in the game. I'd take him over any guy you mentioned in that list except maybe Papelbon, but I'd even think about that.
Old 12-11-2008, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by IlliNorge
Saves are overrated, big time. A save is about the only stat a guy like me can achieve. You give me a good defense, a 3-run lead, and I'll be able to get a save half the time with my 60 mph fastball.

It's like wins for starting pitchers or ERA for relievers. Rodriguez is very good. But he's no Papelbon, Rivera, or Nathan. Not even close.

As for the trade, the Mets get Putz, Reed, and Green. The other two teams get a total of 2 guys I've ever heard of. Only teams with money can make those kinds of deals.
And yea, your second part is true, some teams just have to shed salary and start fresh and others don't. That's the way it is.
Old 12-11-2008, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by GIBSON6594
Come on...look at the guys stats over the past four years. He has almost the same career ERA as Rivera, a better ERA than Nathan, if you look at relatively, his number are much better than Nathan all around. He blows them all away in Saves, except Rivera for obvious reasons.

Look at Doom's post. K-Rod is an elite closer in the game. I'd take him over any guy you mentioned in that list except maybe Papelbon, but I'd even think about that.
I think ERA and saves are overrated for closers. If you play for a great team that is always up 5-2 or 4-1 after 8 innings, you can rack them up. The #2 closer by one season was Bobby Thigpen of the White Sox. He didn't exactly strike fear into the hearts of hitters.

The way I measure closers is by how you feel when he enters a game with a 1-run lead. Papelbon is literally unhittable most of the time. Rivera still saws everybody off. Even Soria with KC was lights out. But K-Rod can be wild. I put him there with Hoffman and Jenks. I still feel like we've got a chance.

We'll see. He also has to handle the stress of pitching in NY without a 10 game lead in the standings.
Old 12-11-2008, 11:53 AM
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jeez, are the Jays sleeping while all the free agents are being scooped up
Old 12-11-2008, 11:53 AM
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Here's a curveball. Check out this site that has K-Rod as the 68th best RP in MLB.

http://statcorner.com/leader.php?typ...g=MLB&limit=90

Glossary - looks like tRA* is the more defining stat
http://statcorner.com/glossary.html

I think the non-baseball/Ivy League guys like Theo and the Tampa GM go off these stats than scout's hunches. Speculation but you never know.
Old 12-11-2008, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Doom878
Here's a curveball. Check out this site that has K-Rod as the 68th best RP in MLB.

http://statcorner.com/leader.php?typ...g=MLB&limit=90

Glossary - looks like tRA* is the more defining stat
http://statcorner.com/glossary.html

I think the non-baseball/Ivy League guys like Theo and the Tampa GM go off these stats than scout's hunches. Speculation but you never know.
I could live with the chart. Rivera, Papelbon, Nathan, Soria are 1,2,6,21. And look at Hoffman and Jenks down there at 26 and 28.
Old 12-11-2008, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by IlliNorge
I could live with the chart. Rivera, Papelbon, Nathan, Soria are 1,2,6,21. And look at Hoffman and Jenks down there at 26 and 28.
you would really want all those guys in that chart ranked above K-Rod? Buddy Carlyle?
Old 12-11-2008, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by GIBSON6594
you would really want all those guys in that chart ranked above K-Rod? Buddy Carlyle?
No, but I can live with that chart, over say a Saves Leaders chart. K-Rod is still a green quantity. Only 2 teams would pay that money for a green quantity.
Old 12-11-2008, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by IlliNorge
No, but I can live with that chart, over say a Saves Leaders chart. K-Rod is still a green quantity. Only 2 teams would pay that money for a green quantity.
Yea, I i know what you mean, but I don't think K-Rods other numbers are too shabby either. Basically, when he comes in the game is over. i can't live a chart that ranks someone who is the all-time single season saves leader and MLB's saves leader over the last 3 years so low and under so many no names. To me that chart is crap.

Get saves is what we are paying this guy to do.
Old 12-11-2008, 01:15 PM
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It's probably the same reason the Marlins rarely have the same closer for more than 2 years. I actually found that site googling for 1-save stats. I'm sure some stat dork somewhere will post that info. I'm just throwing out numbers. Baseball stats are so fun to analyze.
Old 12-11-2008, 01:38 PM
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sabermetrics have proven that the saves statistic and star closers are generally very overrated...kinda goes along with the billy beane theory

here is an excellent article by Jim Caple on it ---> link
Old 12-11-2008, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Doom878
Here's a curveball. Check out this site that has K-Rod as the 68th best RP in MLB.

http://statcorner.com/leader.php?typ...g=MLB&limit=90

Glossary - looks like tRA* is the more defining stat
http://statcorner.com/glossary.html

I think the non-baseball/Ivy League guys like Theo and the Tampa GM go off these stats than scout's hunches. Speculation but you never know.
Francisco Cordero - 131



We sure paid a lot for #131


Edit: Looks like Putz is 134
Old 12-11-2008, 02:08 PM
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Hmm...well, I guess I'm joining the NY-Mets-overpaid-Krod group...He doesn't strike fear into a team to me with a 1-run lead.

The lights-off closers in my books:
- Rivera
- Papelbon
- Nathan

Hell, I don't even have Jenks in that group. And K-Rod's release is too violent...I'd find it hard for him to sustain his success for too long without his arm falling off soon.
Old 12-11-2008, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Silver_Surfer
The CC signing might come back to haunt the Yanks. How did CC do in the AL recently? Where and when did he dominate? After the trade to the NL of course!
Well, to put him in perspective, his AL stats were similar to Buerhle's.

Buerhle's a terrific pitcher...but, he's not worth Santana-money, which is what the dumb Yanks tossed at CC Fat@$$.
Old 12-11-2008, 02:15 PM
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Cubs acquire pitcher Patton from Reds

From here: http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=257456&src=152
Old 12-11-2008, 02:46 PM
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I read somewhere that KRod's velocity is off. It might be due to injury.
Old 12-11-2008, 02:48 PM
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Looks like the Cubs are done pursuing Peavy.
Old 12-11-2008, 02:59 PM
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I don't know what you guys are thinking.

All the people that know baseball talent are saying the Mets now have the best 8th/9th in the league

What I bolded really amazes me.
I knew the bullpen sucked but I didn't realize how badly they sucked.

Mets now have terrific twosome in 'pen

By Jayson Stark
ESPN.com
(Archive)

<!-- promo plug -->
<!-- end promo plug -->
<!-- end story header --> <!-- begin left column --> <!-- begin page tools --> Updated: December 11, 2008

<!-- end page tools --> <!-- begin story body --> <!-- template inline -->LAS VEGAS -- The New York Mets of 2008 didn't just have a closer problem. They had a bullpen problem.
<!-- begin whole table --> <!-- begin top part --> Baseball Tonight


<!-- end top part --> <!-- begin table --> <table class="left" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>
Become an Insider, and you can watch the entire Baseball Tonight Hot Stove Special that aired Wednesday.</td></tr></tbody></table> <!-- end table -->
<!-- end whole table --> The Mets of 2008 didn't just have a ninth-inning problem. They had a how-the-heck-do-we-get-to-the-ninth-inning problem. Well, not anymore. Now, after a stunning 12-player, three-team, winter meetings megadeal Wednesday night, the Mets have transformed their bullpen and transformed themselves. J.J. Putz and Francisco Rodriguez aren't merely an upgrade on Luis Ayala and Duaner Sanchez/Aaron Heilman/Scott Schoeneweis/insert your favorite other Mets setup villain here. J.J. Putz and K-Rod are an upgrade on everybody's eighth-and-ninth-inning bullpen-assassin combo. [+] Enlarge
Paul Jasienski/Getty Images
J.J. Putz struck out 56 batters in 46 1/3 innings with the Mariners last season.


Who beats that tag team? "Nobody," said one longtime talent evaluator Wednesday night. "To me, they're the best. And they're not just a great duo. They're a strikeout duo, too. There won't be many balls in play when those two guys are out there. As big as strikeouts are in the ninth inning, sometimes they're even bigger in the eighth." True facts: K-Rod averaged 10.14 strikeouts per nine innings this season. Putz, even in a down year, averaged 10.88 whiffs per nine innings. And that was in the American League, where the lineups run nine deep. Only two National League teams had a closer-setup combo in which each pitcher racked up that high a punch-out rate in 2008 -- the Cubs (Kerry Wood/Carlos Marmol) and the Dodgers (Takashi Saito/Jonathan Broxton/Hong-Chih Kuo). Not coincidentally, those staffs ranked third and first, respectively, in the league in bullpen ERA. But now Wood is gone in Chicago. Saito is hurt in L.A. And it's the Mets who have assumed the throne. We asked around Wednesday night in a lobby packed with baseball people. Nobody could come up with an eighth-inning/ninth-inning combo as formidable as the Mets' new twosome. The reason is simple. As long as these two are healthy, there isn't a better tandem. "They can play a 21-out game now," the same evaluator said of the Mets. "I give them a lot of credit. They just made a $13 million investment [in K-Rod], and now they've bolstered it with a character guy whose character is so good, he'll be willing to pitch the eighth inning." Putz, of course, will have to be healthier than he was in 2008, when his 3.88 ERA was nearly triple his 1.38 mark in '07. But if he is, he changes the Mets' whole persona.
Just consider the bullpen disaster that did in this team this season:
  • The Mets were 13th in the league in ERA from the seventh inning on and 13th in bullpen ERA overall.
  • They blew 29 saves -- second most in the National League, behind St. Louis.
  • They gave up 61 home runs from the seventh inning on, tied with the Giants for the most in the league.
And those aren't even the most devastating numbers that defined the Mets' season. Consider these numbers:
  • If all games had ended after six innings this season, the Mets would have finished the year 11 games ahead of the Phillies (aka, the team that won the World Series).
  • If all games had ended after seven innings, the Mets would have finished six games ahead of the Phillies.
  • And if all games had even been just eight innings long instead of nine, the Mets would have finished five games ahead of the Phillies.
But the rules are the rules. And the rules say they had to play all nine. And it was those final innings that crushed the Mets. The Phillies lost no games they led after eight innings. The Mets lost seven of them -- and lost 13 games they led after seven innings. That's how seasons slip away. That's how one fatal flaw can undermine everyone and everything. That was the story of the 2008 Mets. So one miraculous trade later, this doesn't just look like a whole new bullpen. It looks like a whole new team.
Old 12-11-2008, 03:11 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Yumchah
Well, to put him in perspective, his AL stats were similar to Buerhle's.

Buerhle's a terrific pitcher...but, he's not worth Santana-money, which is what the dumb Yanks tossed at CC Fat@$$.
Don't talk crap about CC! There is one serious New Yorker here that won't appreciate it!
Old 12-11-2008, 03:13 PM
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^ Naw...GIBSON's a Met's fan through and through. He hates the Yankees.
Old 12-11-2008, 03:13 PM
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"If all games had ended after six innings this season, the Mets would have finished the year 11 games ahead of the Phillies (aka, the team that won the World Series).
If all games had ended after seven innings, the Mets would have finished six games ahead of the Phillies.
And if all games had even been just eight innings long instead of nine, the Mets would have finished five games ahead of the Phillies."



Beezlebub,

Where can I get the same type of stats for all the MLB teams? I really want to see which team has the absolutely worst bullpen.

Last edited by Silver_Surfer; 12-11-2008 at 03:17 PM.
Old 12-11-2008, 03:13 PM
  #120  
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