goofy8

Just what is the problem with the 5AT trans? Would anything help, like Amsoil ATF? If not why

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

What's with the ??

The most common cause of the transmission failures is the 3rd gear. I honestly don't think switching the ATF is going to help much. But if it makes you feel better and safer, then by all means, go ahead.

goofy8

If 3rd gear is the problem, is it do to cheap metal? Or is it an oiling problem, why is some fixes an oiling spray add-on thing if not.

So if above is true, why wouldn't a synthetic ATF fluid help. Doesn't this type of oil help keep temperatures down?




I don't know why not it just looked funny if nothing else.

Seotaji

i thought honda atf z1 was the way to go, but let me know how it works out and if the shift quality is the same.

mikelee223

I get a lot of funny feeling shifts on my third, but after some lucas oil additive, it feels alittle better. My 2cents.

Edward'TLS

No ATF, no oil additive, no tranny cooler is gonna to prevent the tranny from failing. The real problem is insufficient lube oil delivery to the 3rd gear clutch packs as a result of restrictive oil ducts due to the tranny design. Extreme heat then builds up and finally the clutch packs fall apart. Once that happens, disintegrated metal bits clot the tranny oil filter, further limiting the oil flow resulting in more heat. Terminal failure results.

goofy8

Ok, so here's my thinking on this Synthetic oil gets into the metal pores. So if this is in the pores of the metal keeping things cooler, may even protect when oil is lacking then how is Synthetic oil bad?

BTW do you rebuild transmissions?

gtkman

I switched to Amsoil synthetic ATF @ 3000 miles. Have 25K on my 02 TLS with no problems. Have to believe it can handle more heat than Honda ATF. Our cars only hold 7.6 qts of ATF in the whole system and only 3 qts can be drained from the plug, so it's not an expensive mod.

goofy8

Anything else you can add?


Just a normal drain & refill only 1 time?

Any difference felt in shifting?

Anyone running 100% Amsoil?

gtkman

I followed Acura ATF changing procedures. Get fluid hot by driving and remove drain plug. You can remove 3 to 3.1 Qts through the plug. Add 3 Qts of Amsoil ATF through the fill hole (not the dip stick tube). Drive around to get it mixed up. Do this all over again...total of three times, so you will use 9 qts of new ATF. You can drain 3 qts each time so you are changing 40% of the total capacity of the fluid. Total capacity is 7.6 Qts. I did not feel any difference in how the car shifts. I feel that synthetic ATF is great insurance. ATF is amazing fluid and takes so much abuse. Our cars have so little fluid, we don't even have a filter to change. Synthetic fluid can handle more heat than conventional ATF and it is approved for use in just about every vehicle known to man. No.......I am not an Amsoil Dealer. If I didn't have a contact for Amsoil, I would go down and buy Mobil 1 synthetic ATF.....don't care about the brand, just that it's 100% synthetic and approved for Honda/Acura vehicles.

gtkman

Just to make sure I answered your question completely........The three drain and re-fill cycles was only done the first time to remove all the original fluid possible. From that point on, I am on a 7500-10,000 mile one time drain and re-fill of just 3 Qts each time. As I said, changing three Qts replaces 40% of the entire fluid capacity. I do this while changing the oil and it's very easy and quick.

Edward'TLS

Synthetic oil is not bad, but it will not prevent the tranny from failing. I know what's on your mind. You're probably thinking that synthetic oil, when being used in engines, reduces friction and therefore heat generated inside the engines.

BUT engines and trannies ARE NOT the same. There are many clutch discs inside a tranny, and they all require friction to work properly. If there is no friction, the clutch discs will just spin freely, unable to deliver power to the main drive shafts. When there is friction, there will be heat. This damaging heat is generated by the third gear clutch packs and is trapped deep inside the tranny block. The only way that this heat is released is through the tranny oil circulating inside the narrow ducts inside the tranny block.

Synthetic oil is no better a cooling agent than regular oil. It seems better in an engine because it reduces friction between moving parts, so less heat is generated.

Honda has gone through a few revisions with its rebuilt trannies, such as widening oil passages, better tolerance clutch discs, PCM with revised programming, etc. But none includes using synthetic oil, nor additives, nor oil cooler. You really think you're smarter than Honda !?

BTW I do not rebuilt trannies, but I've years of experience souping-up cars, and I've been following this tranny problem from day 1.

I think it helps if you to the link below

http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=126

and read through all the information, especially the Honda report submitted to NHTSA. Then you'll get the whole picture.

goofy8

>>Honda has gone through a few revisions with its rebuilt trannies, such as widening oil passages, better tolerance clutch discs, PCM with revised programming, etc. But none includes using synthetic oil, nor additives, nor oil cooler. You really think you're smarter than Honda !?<<

LOL, do I think I'm smarter than Honda NO. Just I feel it's my interest to protect my investment, to do what makes sense to me. I think if Honda could fix this problem so easy by drilling a bigger hole then they would have. I just think has much as I like Honda, they maybe have a pride issue here. If they said there's a better fluid then there Z1 stuff, if they said the clutch disk are too small, if they said the fluid is getting too hot we need more fluid. In short a pride issue for Honda, so I think another member here said it Amsoil AFT I will say 100% change out, and a Tran’s cooler added.

BTW yes it may not help but it couldn't hurt.

Incubus

NO!!! My experiences with Honda transmissions is that they're very sensitive to different oils. Also, they may look at this as a negative thing and blame you for the failure. Probably not, but it's always a possibility.

gtkman

edward TLS............

You are assuming you know what I am thinking..I don't think so. I have considerable experience with engines and trannies and of course I don't know more than Honda, and you are being ridiculous to even suggest it, but if you think Honda engineers their vehicles to a level that they cannot be improved upon...you are nieve. Many parts can be improved upon and made better if you want to spend the $ to do it. I did not say that Synthetic ATF lubricates better that conventional ATF. I did say that Synthetic withstands higher temps without breaking down. Many trannies fail due to the breakdown and burning of the additive packages in the fluid. Synthetic oils can tolerate more heat without breakdown...it's a fact. Many heavy duty applications require synthetic for this reason. You are simply wrong about the cooling capabilities of synthetic vs conventional ATF. There is very little difference when new, but when conventional ATF breaks down due to heat, it has significantly less cooling cabability than synthetic fluid exposed to the same level of heat. Regardless of the actual problem with our trannies and I agree that there is more than one problem, heat IS among them, and synthetic is better to handle it than conventional ATF. Amsoil synthetic ATF is approved for Honda/Acura vehicles and it will not void the warranty.

Edward'TLS

Gtkman, you are right that synthetic oil can withstand more heat before viscosity breakdown. But if the superheated synthetic oil is not circulating fast enough inside the small oil delivery ducts, most of the heat is still trapped inside the tranny, cooking the 3rd gear clutch packs until they fall apart. The bottom line is that synthetic oil will not prevent our trannies from failing.

As in the aftermarket oil cooler situation I have adviced people before. Let's assume that synthetic oil can extend the life of the tranny.

If the tranny lasted longer and failed before the extended warranty expired, you wasted your money on the expensive synthetic oil changes because the tranny still failed.

Worst still, if the tranny lasted even longer and failed after the extended warranty expired, it would be a double lost. Once on the expensive synthetic oil changes, and once on having to pay for the tranny repair out of your own pocket.

If your tranny fails, Acura will replace it free of charge. It won't cost you a single cent. Plus you'll get all the latest improvement upgrades on you rebuilt tranny. So why waste your money on doing something that you think may help, but actually don't prevent the tranny from failing.

But if someone does something to his tranny so he can sleep better at night thinking that his tranny won't fail, I will not disrupt his dreams.

Similarly, as in the latest 2nd-gear recall that affects all our cars, heat is also the culprit. Acura will install oil piping kit to increase the ATF delivery to the 2nd gear. Because of the volume of cars affected, millions of $ will eventually be spent on this recall. If by simply using synthetic tranny oil will fix this heating problem, there will not be any oil piping kit needed. Acura can simply issue a service bulletin to force the using of synthetic oil in all trannies. There is not much cost incurred to Acura because it's the customers who have to pay for tranny oil changes. But when Acura goes this far for the recall, the real benefit of synthetic tranny oil is apparent.

gtkman

All of this is pure speculation. I can come up with as many opposite scenarios. How about if Synthetic ATF prevented failure to 99,000 miles and I get a brand new one under warranty. Or if it extends the life to just 50K miles and I get a new one, I am way ahead for the small investment of maintaining less than 8 Qts of Synthetic fluid. By your own admission you are not a tranny expert and you do not rebuid them. So why are you coming off like your position is the only correct one? Bottom line is, nobody really knows all the facts. Synthetic oil is not that expensive and I will use it in my transmission before and after the transmission is replaced, not because I expect it to prevent failure, because it's the best product available on the market. I meticulously maintain all my cars, old and new, with the best parts/products/equipment possible, and will continue to do so. I am absolutely convinced that I recover every penny spent on this level of maintenance. A documented maintenance log with top quality components brings $ at resale time.

yield2s

.

Edward'TLS

Gtkman, in no way did I question your position as a tranny expert and your experience rebuilding them. But we're dealing with a different beast here. It is the latest electronic 5-speed automatic tranny from Honda specially designed for its V6 engines. Not even Honda factory-trained mechanics knew what caused the failures until the Honda NHTSA report came into light, let alone outside tranny experts. Why ? Because dealerships are not allowed to open up and work on the dead trannies. They have to ship the unopened dead trannies back to Honda in order to claim labour charge and to obtain rebuilt replacements. However, after carefully reading through the Honda NHTSA report (thanks to EricL who did an excellent job in summarizing the major details), everyone will become an expert in this Honda tranny in terms of what caused the failure and what are the remedies implemented by Honda.

The followings are the hard facts, spelled out by Honda who knows its tranny inside out, no speculation whatsoever.

Inside the report, it mentioned that WOT 2-3 upshift and closed-throttle 5-3 manual downshift would cause a temp rise of more than 100 degreeC. Repeated occurences would elevate the 3rd gear clutch pack temp to 400 degreeC. To dissipate so much heat, the ATF must move very fast to transfer the heat away from this localized area. Problems here : the out-of-tolerance 3rd-gear clutch plates created the extreme heat, and the ATF flow rate is not fast enough to dissipate the extreme heat. So the clutch packs cook until they fall apart.

Some of the fixes implemented by Honda (dated up to when this report was compiled, there might be more new follow-up fixes) were using better surface roughness 3rd-gear clutch plates, widening ATF oil passages to increase fluid flow, using higher strength ATF strainer, revising ECM timing program to reduce engine power during particular shift patterns, etc.

It doesn't need an outside tranny expert to understand all these hard facts. For the real effectiveness of using synthetic tranny oil in this case, I'll let everyone be the judge.

It's perfectly ok for someone who wants to meticulously maintain all his/her cars, old and new, with the best parts/products/equipment possible. I also agree that a well documented maintenance log with top quality components does bring $ at resale time. But I think the answer to this thread "Tranny Q would Amsoil ATF fuild help?" is that no ATF fluid will prevent the tranny from failing.

goofy8

A local respected car repair shop / talk show host / Amsoil dealer & supporter, said no Amsoil would effect shifts. The shifts would be hard, I said this too another co-worker who is an Amsoil dealer also (maybe just for the discount for him self / but will sell to people he knows) said yes the shifts are firmer but he like to use a shift kit also to help shifts.

I used shift kit in the past on other cars / but always felt honda trans where firm right from the start. So yes I think Amsoil would make the shift to hard.

The above is assumed the this first guy / car repair shop changes out 100% fuild. You on the other hand changed I would think 80-85% of fuild.

My thinking overall is Amsoil couldn't hurt, if shifts where the same.

goofy8

Edward's TLS,

I don't see how this 3rd gear pack heats up this much if it's not slipping.

Edward'TLS

The problem is that our tranny is not one of those F1 type in which the engine will match rev before each up or down gear shift. When our tranny upshifts, the corresponding clutch pack is responsible to slow the engine rpm down before engaging; when our tranny downshifts, the corresponding clutch pack is responsible to bring the engine rpm up before engaging. By nature of vehicle clutch operation, certain amount of slippage must take place in order to prevent jerky gear changes.

Two problems. The first is that the surface roughness of the 3rd-gear clutch plates is out of tolerance. So much more heat is generated than normal. The second is that the ATF flow rate is not high enough to transfer the damaging heat away from the 3rd-gear clutch pack area. Localized heating is normal for a tranny. But as long as there are hugh oil ducts moving enough ATF through the 3rd-gear clutch pack area to dissipate the trapped heat, it would have been ok.

One of the major killers is WOT 2nd-to-3rd upshifts, together with the mechanical throttle linkage of our cars. Since at WOT, the throttle body opening is jammed wide open (by our foot), the engine is sucking maximum volume of air and therefore generating maximum power. Now the clutch has to work overtime to slow down the engine before 3rd gear can be engaged smoothly. All this translate to unnecessary heating of the 3rd-gear clutch packs.

As a result, Honda required that the ECM be replaced at the same time a rebuilt tranny was installed. This ECM contains a revised timing program which will retard the engine timing between damaging gear shifts. Retarding timing basically reduces the engine output power. Unfortunately, even at maximum retard, the engine is still generating enough power to cook the 3rd-gear clutch packs, as evidence by the repeated failures of rebuilt trannies. However, although ECM replacement doesn't completely eliminate tranny failures, it does help to reduce the failure rate to a much lower level.

Nevertheless, the 3rd gen TL's are all using electronic throttle (throttle by wire). With this much better solution, the ECM can intercept WOT signals and maintain maximum control of the throttle body opening as well as other timings. In this way, engine output can be reduced to the safest practical level in between gear shifts, in order to protect the 3rd-gear clutch packs.

Edward'TLS

Below is an interesting article I found today on synthetic (fancy) oil.

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/oil15e_20040715.htm

gtkman

OK, so now we are talking about motor oil? What does motor oil have in common with ATF? You are just spinning the issue. I can find as many pro articles on synthetic motor oil as you can find on Dino motor oils. Synthetics out perform dino oils in every way except price per quart. How many Nascar engines or any racing application for that matter, run Dino Oil? Very few! Almost every auto manufacturer factory fills at least one model with Synthetic oils and recommends its use for the life of the vehicle. Why? It outperforms dino oils, PERIOD. Most of the factory fills are in high performance engines. transmissions and differentials/tranaxles with close tolerances. If you want the best it usually costs more.

Since you provided an article on motor oil, why don't you check out the following publication. It provides more info on motor oil & ATF than any one human can absorbe. At least the information is backed by research in real life applications by independent parties with no skin in the game.

Michael Kaufman
Enviro-Guard President
"The Motor Oil Bible" Author

Toll Free: 1-877-209-9226
Email: info@motor-oil-bible.com
Address: 2317 Rogue River Rd. NE Belmont, MI 49306

goofy8

All I can say is this...

I love Honda think they make great / reliable cars. Have as a second car 92 Accord with 185k miles on it, always ran 10w40 Pennzoil in it, Honda AFT fluid. Has never had any major problem, has original alternator and starter (knock on wood that they don't fail soon)

With this I say it's ok to buy an used Acura TL-S 2003 due to my experience with Honda currently and the one's in my past.

I check out Consumer Reports that say TL is a high recommantion, 2003 model doesn't show any major problem in their reports. I register at Acura Owners link that says car is under the transmission recall list.

I find now that this problem has been a problem for awhile now, there's nothing one can do (except for fluid changes / just normal maintenance) I pissed that this problem is STILL with HONDA / ACURA if this F***ing 3rd gear fails like you stated then this is TOO SMALL / OIL is to LOW :fingerfawk: this doesn't seem like ROCKET science so way has they can’t FIX this problem

I’m not even happy with Honda / Acura nice bend over backward attitude that they seem to have a transmission that shits the bed. Why is this still happening, so they build a nice engine peppy little thing and put a tiny little 3rd gear pack give me a break. Or they build a weak transmission then reduce power feed to it. Just complete BS. IMHO