The Heat Soak, Fuel Boiling, No Start after 15min of sitting, issue
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
Likes: 5
The Heat Soak, Fuel Boiling, No Start after 15min of sitting, issue
If I can't find the solution to this problem, my car is getting parted out.
As stated in title, problem arises after car is warm, shut off, sits around 15min and will stumble and try to start, but stalls out. Then you have to let it sit for a while to cool and then she'll start. Or you can crank it over, about 10 times in short bursts and it might start (also with foot to floor).
I've been manually relieving the high fuel pressure, by cracking the fuel line on the firewall. Then it'll start fine.
Yes I've searched. This is a known problem with our cars. I'm not going to blindly throw parts at it.
EGR ports cleaned
Valves readjusted
New ignition switch
IAC operating normally
0 codes
Replaced timing belt
Has anybody found the solution?
I might have to throw a pressure relief valve in the system somehow.
I'll try and get a fuel pressure gauge on it tomorrow.
As stated in title, problem arises after car is warm, shut off, sits around 15min and will stumble and try to start, but stalls out. Then you have to let it sit for a while to cool and then she'll start. Or you can crank it over, about 10 times in short bursts and it might start (also with foot to floor).
I've been manually relieving the high fuel pressure, by cracking the fuel line on the firewall. Then it'll start fine.
Yes I've searched. This is a known problem with our cars. I'm not going to blindly throw parts at it.
EGR ports cleaned
Valves readjusted
New ignition switch
IAC operating normally
0 codes
Replaced timing belt
Has anybody found the solution?
I might have to throw a pressure relief valve in the system somehow.
I'll try and get a fuel pressure gauge on it tomorrow.
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
Likes: 5
OK... I searched a little longer and found some good info.
The car in question is a 1999.
The car in question is a 1999.
"Alright folks,
Got the whole story from the service manager at Acura of Bellevue (good people). He explained the whole problem to me in great detail and I cannot relay the info 100% accurately since I got lost at times, but I'll try.
The problem exists with the 2000 models in areas of the country that sell "winter fuel" in the winter months. After you drive the car and stop, the problem winter fuel in the lines will boil and separate. When you restart the car, the separated fuel will go through the engine and cause the rough idle. Only 2000 model years are affected because in that year, the US gov't told automakers that any fuel left in the lines can't be returned back to the tank for emissions reasons. I didn't ask why later models don't have the same problem..Acura must have found a workaround. Anyways, the way they fix the problem is that they replace the fuel pressure regulator "which increases the fuel pressure to reduce the potential of fuel separation". Not sure how, but this is what he told me. Because they replace the fuel pressure regulator, they have to change the ECU because the ECU is hard-coded with the old fuel pressure regulator's settings.
He also told me that even in those areas of the country that sell winter fuel, certain gas companies like Texaco and Chevron will not sell winter fuel, so stick with companies like them to avoid the problem all together. He claimed that Acura of Bellevue and Acura of Littleton, CO were the first to report the problem. He said that drivers in places like California will never see this problem because the fuel type is consistent all year round.
Whew, I hope I said it all correctly! Of course, the fix is under warranty, so I'm getting it done tomorrow. They're going to stop sending winter fuel to Seattle in a matter of weeks so I won't have to worry until fall, but might as well get it done now.
Hope this helps!
Casey
Got the whole story from the service manager at Acura of Bellevue (good people). He explained the whole problem to me in great detail and I cannot relay the info 100% accurately since I got lost at times, but I'll try.
The problem exists with the 2000 models in areas of the country that sell "winter fuel" in the winter months. After you drive the car and stop, the problem winter fuel in the lines will boil and separate. When you restart the car, the separated fuel will go through the engine and cause the rough idle. Only 2000 model years are affected because in that year, the US gov't told automakers that any fuel left in the lines can't be returned back to the tank for emissions reasons. I didn't ask why later models don't have the same problem..Acura must have found a workaround. Anyways, the way they fix the problem is that they replace the fuel pressure regulator "which increases the fuel pressure to reduce the potential of fuel separation". Not sure how, but this is what he told me. Because they replace the fuel pressure regulator, they have to change the ECU because the ECU is hard-coded with the old fuel pressure regulator's settings.
He also told me that even in those areas of the country that sell winter fuel, certain gas companies like Texaco and Chevron will not sell winter fuel, so stick with companies like them to avoid the problem all together. He claimed that Acura of Bellevue and Acura of Littleton, CO were the first to report the problem. He said that drivers in places like California will never see this problem because the fuel type is consistent all year round.
Whew, I hope I said it all correctly! Of course, the fix is under warranty, so I'm getting it done tomorrow. They're going to stop sending winter fuel to Seattle in a matter of weeks so I won't have to worry until fall, but might as well get it done now.
Hope this helps!
Casey
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 33,535
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no one is on winter gas yet,,not till after halloween is it allowed or required
California does not have stable all year!
we get garbage from November on!! the summer gas is hyper oxygenated
for better combustion
there have been reports here of 99s hard hot start -that turned out to be the fuel pump RELAY not a regulator issue
swap that relay with one of same color to test
verify on egr cleaning?- intake manifold was removed from engine and all system cleaned?
not just the port at 1 place,,must do inside manifold passage for the egr flow
if they do this expensive fix at dealer- does the warranty include a refund when it doesnt cure the problem?
with all the other facts that were wrong,,I wouldnt trust the place,,,,
good storytellers~
was the idle air control cleaned with TB -when off for egr cleaning when done right
You state operating correctly? determined by cleaning?
the TL prefers `Tier 1` quality fuel brands,,chevron/texaco are the same company and fuel
California does not have stable all year!
we get garbage from November on!! the summer gas is hyper oxygenated
for better combustion
there have been reports here of 99s hard hot start -that turned out to be the fuel pump RELAY not a regulator issue
swap that relay with one of same color to test
verify on egr cleaning?- intake manifold was removed from engine and all system cleaned?
not just the port at 1 place,,must do inside manifold passage for the egr flow
if they do this expensive fix at dealer- does the warranty include a refund when it doesnt cure the problem?
with all the other facts that were wrong,,I wouldnt trust the place,,,,
good storytellers~
was the idle air control cleaned with TB -when off for egr cleaning when done right
You state operating correctly? determined by cleaning?
the TL prefers `Tier 1` quality fuel brands,,chevron/texaco are the same company and fuel
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 33,535
Likes: 1,142
have you seafoam the fuel system to get injectors and other fuel parts clean?
1 can in half a tank,,do that twice and its like new inside
better everything as a result
may solve hot issue!!
verify `hot` is 1-2 lines below half on the dash temp guage--
and dead steady at its temp reading?
1 can in half a tank,,do that twice and its like new inside
better everything as a result
may solve hot issue!!
verify `hot` is 1-2 lines below half on the dash temp guage--
and dead steady at its temp reading?
Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 657
Likes: 173
If disconnecting and reconnecting the fuel line restored the normal condition, then installing an electronic pressure relief valve will do the trick. Press a button and the pressure goes to normal. Problem is....where to find such a valve rated for gas applications?
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
Likes: 5
I've had mixed experinces with seafoam... not a big fan. I have done injector cleanings every 50000k. When I did the intake manifold clean, the iac and egr were cleaned as well, not appearing to be sticky.
I should have mentioned that I'm in British Columbia, in the okanagan. I have no clue to when, or i f they switch over from summer to winter gas.
It's obviously a case where the fuel is boiling. Maybe I'll take a video when I crack the fuel line.
Does anyone have a fuel system diagram? Is there a return back to tank?
I should have mentioned that I'm in British Columbia, in the okanagan. I have no clue to when, or i f they switch over from summer to winter gas.
It's obviously a case where the fuel is boiling. Maybe I'll take a video when I crack the fuel line.
Does anyone have a fuel system diagram? Is there a return back to tank?
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Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
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yes there is a return line
this is not a common or normal problem
have you tried the fuel pump relay? swap with another of same color to test
that was source of recent similar start probs reported here
seafoam rocks when modern instructions are followed
not 1/3 can in full tank!!!
bg44 is good too
there are youtube vids of intake valve stems, and piston top cleaning =happening real time
this is not a common or normal problem
have you tried the fuel pump relay? swap with another of same color to test
that was source of recent similar start probs reported here
seafoam rocks when modern instructions are followed
not 1/3 can in full tank!!!
bg44 is good too
there are youtube vids of intake valve stems, and piston top cleaning =happening real time
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,470
Likes: 230
My daughter's tl does this on warm days in spring and fall when we're on winter gas. Of course it did it a few weeks ago several times,
and I'll probably get a call today if it goes above 75deg f. I've held off on fixing it because it usually is ok after 2 or 3 starts, and the correct fix with a fuel pressure regulator and a new pcm is expensive. If I were to try anything, I'd start with the newer, higher pressure, fuel pressure regulator without the pcm. The difference in pressure is about 6 or 7 psi and in reality the high end of spec. for the lower psi regulator is exactly the same as the low end spec. for the high psi regulator. Because of this, I think the pcm would have enough room to correct fuel trims.
Rock auto has the regulator for around $90, which is around acura's wholesale price on it.
I'm pretty sure someone on the forum has already tried this with success.
and I'll probably get a call today if it goes above 75deg f. I've held off on fixing it because it usually is ok after 2 or 3 starts, and the correct fix with a fuel pressure regulator and a new pcm is expensive. If I were to try anything, I'd start with the newer, higher pressure, fuel pressure regulator without the pcm. The difference in pressure is about 6 or 7 psi and in reality the high end of spec. for the lower psi regulator is exactly the same as the low end spec. for the high psi regulator. Because of this, I think the pcm would have enough room to correct fuel trims.
Rock auto has the regulator for around $90, which is around acura's wholesale price on it.
I'm pretty sure someone on the forum has already tried this with success.
Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
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If anybody has, they should have posted the results. I haven't seen any regulator fix to this issue. One guy set up his fans to run for 20 min after engine shutdown to cool the engine bay. He said it solved this issue for him. I am not comfortable draining the battery like that on a consistent basis fall through spring.
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
Likes: 5
have you tried the fuel pump relay? swap with another of same color to test
that was source of recent similar start probs reported here
that was source of recent similar start probs reported here
If I were to try anything, I'd start with the newer, higher pressure, fuel pressure regulator without the pcm. The difference in pressure is about 6 or 7 psi and in reality the high end of spec. for the lower psi regulator is exactly the same as the low end spec. for the high psi regulator. Because of this, I think the pcm would have enough room to correct fuel trims.
If anybody has, they should have posted the results. I haven't seen any regulator fix to this issue. One guy set up his fans to run for 20 min after engine shutdown to cool the engine bay. He said it solved this issue for him. I am not comfortable draining the battery like that on a consistent basis fall through spring.
So... Since the regulator is a return style (on the fuel rail), why is it not relieving the excess pressure into the return line? Does it need a vacuum to properly operate? If that's the case, I could add a stored vacuum source to the regulator circuit.
The regulator seems to be operating normally while running, fuel is being relieved through the return line. I blew through the return line, doesn't appear clogged.
Thanks guys... I feel like I'm close to the solution
Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 657
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This problem is actually not limited to the TL. Do a google search and you will find various vehicles across manufacturers having this same winter gas problem.
I really don't know what to say about a higher pressure regulator. I like your idea about disconnecting & reconnecting the fuel line to relieve pressure and prevent it from happening. Finding a way to automate this with a switch under the dash would be awesome.
I really don't know what to say about a higher pressure regulator. I like your idea about disconnecting & reconnecting the fuel line to relieve pressure and prevent it from happening. Finding a way to automate this with a switch under the dash would be awesome.
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
Likes: 5
Well... it's been a couple days. The temperature has dropped a bit outside, and the issue has disappeared. I've been running the car with the plastic engine covers off, and I think it's made a big difference as well.
I was mistaken, you're correct. I have yet to find the correct fitting to attach a fuel pressure gauge to get proper readings.
Is this the pressure regulator you're referring to? It claims 53psi. http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1319727
It's listed for a 2000 tl, but it looks identical to a 99'.
My other options...
- use insulating wrap around the fuel rails
- install a fuel cooler, as close to the fuel rails as possible
I'm leaning towards the higher psi regulator. If the weather stays cool, I might not know if the problem is fixed until spring.
The higher pressure raises the boiling point of the fuel. You're relieving the pressure isn't the cure. You are also purging fuel vapor caused by the fuel boiling, which is the real culprit.
Is this the pressure regulator you're referring to? It claims 53psi. http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1319727
It's listed for a 2000 tl, but it looks identical to a 99'.
My other options...
- use insulating wrap around the fuel rails
- install a fuel cooler, as close to the fuel rails as possible
I'm leaning towards the higher psi regulator. If the weather stays cool, I might not know if the problem is fixed until spring.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,470
Likes: 230
The fleeting nature of the problem is the biggest reason I haven't done anything with my daughter's car. That and the fact that it's her car and I don't have to deal with anything more than a phone call. Plus I know it's only a minor inconvenience that won't strand her. I did replace the main/efi relay and the ignition switch a few years back before I realized what the problem really was so I've got peace of mind there. If you look up the regulator on Rock auto for a 2000 model, it shows two regulators. Pick the higher pressure one. If you go to 2003 I'm pretty sure it only gives you one choice, the higher pressure one.
Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 657
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It's ok, be patient. There usually are several warmer days during the fall and winter when you can test this fix. To me it happens on a warmer day after a drive when I park the car for 20+ minutes, and go back to start it.
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
Likes: 5
Well... it was a while waiting for the part, and work got in the way, but I finally got a new pressure regulator on there.
Made no difference. I need some more ideas.
I also gave in and Seafoamed it. Runs a little smoother, but didn't help my problem.
New regulator...
On first startup, I noticed the idle higher than normal, ~1100RPM. The battery was disconnected, so a quick drive was all that was needed to get the ECU relearning. Idle is back at 750RPM.
The orange circle shows the fitting where I bleed off the pressure. Works every time.
I have yet to get a fuel pressure gauge on the car yet. That will be my next step. I need ideas.
Made no difference. I need some more ideas.
I also gave in and Seafoamed it. Runs a little smoother, but didn't help my problem.
New regulator...
On first startup, I noticed the idle higher than normal, ~1100RPM. The battery was disconnected, so a quick drive was all that was needed to get the ECU relearning. Idle is back at 750RPM.
The orange circle shows the fitting where I bleed off the pressure. Works every time.
I have yet to get a fuel pressure gauge on the car yet. That will be my next step. I need ideas.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,470
Likes: 230
Damn, I really thought that would cure it. If you can get fuel with no ethanol, do that. Intake spacer/thermoblock? Yours must be particularly stubborn; my daughter's usually usually takes 2 or 3 starts at the most. Which is why I've done nothing to address it yet. I suppose if the fuel pump itself is weak, [rare], that could be the problem. Without looking up the spec., a decent pump should go to full pressure on one key cycle [about one second] and should test around double it's rated pressure when you plug off the return line.
When you test the dead head pressure with the return line blocked, just do it for a few seconds. It's hard on the pump.
When you test the dead head pressure with the return line blocked, just do it for a few seconds. It's hard on the pump.
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
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I've got an appointment with a local shop to observe my fuel pressure. Couldn't find anyone near me that with rent out a fuel injection master kit.
I'll be checking for general fuel pressure, attaching the gauge in place of the fuel pulsation dampener. And then I'll be checking into any pressure loss on the pump side. If the check valve in the pump doesn't bleed pressure, then I may have to suspect one or more fuel injectors may be dumping fuel into the intake.
Good suggestion, but I can't see how changing the ECU will prevent the fuel from boiling, as you can see in the video.
I hope to know more tomorrow.
I'll be checking for general fuel pressure, attaching the gauge in place of the fuel pulsation dampener. And then I'll be checking into any pressure loss on the pump side. If the check valve in the pump doesn't bleed pressure, then I may have to suspect one or more fuel injectors may be dumping fuel into the intake.
I hope to know more tomorrow.
Senior Moderator
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Appleton WI
Im not by my car to look, but does the line run to the purge control solenoid back in that area? . Its all part of the emissions system designed to release pressure and the vapor back into the fuel system. If you are using that to bleed the system, my guess is its that that is the issue.
Last edited by fsttyms1; Nov 13, 2012 at 08:45 PM.
Thread Starter
Cruisin'
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
Likes: 5
Forgot about this thread
Problem Solved!
Fuel injectors leaking, new set of 6 cleared it up.
Put old fuel pressure regulator back on. The new one seemed to speed up the issue, pushing more fuel into the intake quicker. Causing a no start situation in 10minutes, sometimes less.
Thanks for the help guys.
Problem Solved!
Fuel injectors leaking, new set of 6 cleared it up.
Put old fuel pressure regulator back on. The new one seemed to speed up the issue, pushing more fuel into the intake quicker. Causing a no start situation in 10minutes, sometimes less.
Thanks for the help guys.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,470
Likes: 230
Thanks for posting the fix. At first I thought it was odd that leaky injectors would be winter fuel, ambient temp.,and hot soak sensitive, but I re-read your original post and noticed you mentioned hot soak only. Now it makes perfect sense that relieving the fuel pressure would help. Same with wide open, clear flood cranking. So there might still be hope for the fuel regulator if someone really has the fuel boiling issue. Do you want to sell the regulator you tried? I suppose I should at do an injector leakdown test first.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,153
Likes: 57
It is good that you dropped us a line of what the issue was. 
I am sure everyone wants to hear that.
I am sure everyone wants to hear that.Forgot about this thread
Problem Solved!
Fuel injectors leaking, new set of 6 cleared it up.
Put old fuel pressure regulator back on. The new one seemed to speed up the issue, pushing more fuel into the intake quicker. Causing a no start situation in 10minutes, sometimes less.
Thanks for the help guys.
Problem Solved!
Fuel injectors leaking, new set of 6 cleared it up.
Put old fuel pressure regulator back on. The new one seemed to speed up the issue, pushing more fuel into the intake quicker. Causing a no start situation in 10minutes, sometimes less.
Thanks for the help guys.
Last edited by acutee; Mar 13, 2013 at 03:32 PM.
Intermediate
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 39
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I have this same problem. I know something has to be sticking or not working properly because once my car sits for an hour or so it will start up just fine. But it will not "hot" restart (hot meaning normal operating temp.) I haven't cleaned my EGR valves or completely used seafoam. However one mechanic is saying it sounds like its my coolant temperature sensor. Please help!!!
Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 657
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I have this same problem. I know something has to be sticking or not working properly because once my car sits for an hour or so it will start up just fine. But it will not "hot" restart (hot meaning normal operating temp.) I haven't cleaned my EGR valves or completely used seafoam. However one mechanic is saying it sounds like its my coolant temperature sensor. Please help!!!
When you park your car and pop open the engine hood to cool the engine.... does it still happen after returning in 20 minutes? If not, then it's most probably a heat soak issue that boils the fuel line. I had this same problem too, but I removed the plastic engine cover and I haven't had this problem in over a year now. Seems like the engine heat is dissipating more without those covers.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,470
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^^That sounds like a good idea to really isolate the problem. I've decided to try something on my daughter's car; I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier. I bought a cheapo, e-bay universal fuel pressure regulator for less than $30 including shipping. I'm not gonna tell her, and see what happens. If it affects her fuel mileage, I suspect I'll hear about it right away. If I don't get any calls about hard/rough starting, I'll assume it's fixed. With the cold spring we've had so far in Michigan, I may never find out.
Intermediate
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 39
Likes: 1
When you park your car and pop open the engine hood to cool the engine.... does it still happen after returning in 20 minutes? If not, then it's most probably a heat soak issue that boils the fuel line. I had this same problem too, but I removed the plastic engine cover and I haven't had this problem in over a year now. Seems like the engine heat is dissipating more without those covers.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Feb 2006
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^^Sounds like bs to me. "A little clogged"? They're guessing. Restricted exhaust shows up at high rpm, and high load. I'd only let them do it with a written guarantee that it would fix your problem. If you decide to do it, get your old converter back; it's valuable to recyclers. Don't buy the "there's a core charge on it" routine. It's really several cases of beer.
Intermediate
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 39
Likes: 1
[quote=TLer trash;14458397]^^Sounds like bs to me. "A little clogged"? They're guessing. Restricted exhaust shows up at high rpm, and high load. I'd only let them do it with a written guarantee that it would fix your problem. If you decide to do it, get your old converter back; it's valuable to recyclers. Don't buy the "there's a core charge on it" routine. It's really several cases of beer.[/quote I never pay any core charges. So should I go with a fuel induction/injection service that Acura suggested???
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,470
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^^I wouldn't rule out fuel injection/induction cleaning, as I've seen it help a lot of strange running problems. You don't have to use the dealer either. Price some independents. The bg service is good, as well as wynn's, 3m, and others, but I think the motorvac system is the industry leader for a number of reasons. The first thing would be to try victus' suggestion to see if it helps. Then possibly have someone check the fuel pump pressure, volume, and amperage draw as well as checking for a leaky injector. Done properly, these checks are typically part of a motorvac service. However, I personally think fuel injection service is oversold most of the time.