Motorsports: History and Legacy Discussion Thread

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 10-13-2021, 08:11 AM
  #641  
F-C
Senior Moderator
 
F-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,693
Received 1,082 Likes on 776 Posts

Adelaide was such a glorious street circuit.
Old 10-19-2021, 06:51 PM
  #642  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Ayrton Senna's championship winning car screams round Goodwood | 78th Members' Meetin

The following users liked this post:
00TL-P3.2 (10-20-2021)
Old 10-21-2021, 09:01 AM
  #643  
Moderator
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 38
Posts: 25,777
Received 5,319 Likes on 3,648 Posts
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...r-mp4-4-claims


The MP4/4 debate which has rumbled on for over three decades has heated up once again, with former McLaren designers strongly refuting claims from Gordon Murray that he alone was the car's architect


It’s the heated racing row which has rumbled on for decades: who really designed the McLaren MP4/4, the most successful Formula 1 car of all time?

Members of the Woking team have hit back at recent claims from Gordon Murray that he deserves full credit for designing the car, which won 15 out of 16 races in the hands of Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost during its crushing 1988 season.

Murray was damning when giving an interview in our September issue. “I led the design team. I’m sick and tired of other people living off my reputation,” he said, saying that the suggestion Steve Nichols was chief designer “is the biggest load of rubbish you’ve ever heard”.

The response from senior design engineer Matthew Jeffreys was no less acerbic. “I can only imagine Gordon and the rest of us in the design team were living in parallel universes, as his version of events is not the same as mine, or indeed any of my former McLaren colleagues I have spoken to on the subject,” he wrote in a letter published in our October 2021 issue.

“Gordon is a great designer and has produced some wonderful cars in his time but not giving due credit to Steve for the 4/4 is unfair to him and to many people throughout the team who worked incredibly hard and achieved so much that year.”

What has appeared to add further fuel to the fire is that both Murray and Nichols have now launched cars that draw on their F1 achievements – the former with the GMA T.50 – a McLaren F1 successor – and the latter with his reimagining of Bruce McLaren’s first competition car, the M1A (Nichols’s dubbed the N1A).

In letters shown to Motor Sport, Murray has threatened Nichols with legal action, asserting that his car company and its V12-powered, fan-assisted T.50 supercar depends on his reputation as the MP4/4 designer.

On his own Nichols Cars website, the American says similar in that his firm’s credibility and his lightweight V8 N1A car rests on his claim to designing the McLaren. One selling point is that buyers, sat in a reclined seating position, will “get an idea of what Senna and Prost experienced in the MP4/4.”

Nichols seems in no doubt that Murray’s own new car company may have encouraged him to further stake his claim in the car’s creation.

“I’ve had two letters from him now telling me to cease and desist from claiming that I designed the MP4/4, saying that he’s making his living now on his reputation with his car company,” said Nichols, speaking to Motor Sport.

“And you can see that it’s not really aimed at me, it’s aimed at his investors – the people who have paid big deposits on his T. 50.”

Whilst Nichols’s car is based on an older period of McLaren’s history, he still leans heavily on his ‘80s McLaren experience to market his rarefied product.

“Having headed the design team at McLaren during arguably their most successful period ever, I’m a McLaren man through and through,” he says on his website. “With the Nichols N1A I’ve gone back to the very first McLaren for inspiration, combining elements of its classic lines with modern engineering for a car of extraordinary performance and presence.”

Murray’s reputation was already sky-high when he left Brabham at the end of 1986 after producing two drivers’ championship-winning cars, and innovations that included the infamous fan car, as well as the tilted engine of the troublesome BT55.

He joined McLaren to replace John Barnard and was appointed technical director with wide-ranging responsibility for the Formula 1 team, but what that actually meant in terms of involvement is where recollections differ.

Nichols said that he was tasked with the car that would go on to deliver Ayrton Senna his first championship — said to have been confirmed in a memo that was sent round to senior staff.

“Ron [Dennis] asked me to take on the ’88 car [MP4/4] so that [newly appointed] Neil Oatley could focus on the ’89 [MP4/5] car,” says Nichols.

“Gordon wrote some job descriptions, he didn’t interfere with the designing of the F1 car and backed up the fact that Ron had appointed me as the chief designer.”

Nichols says the relative lack of input from Murray was actually what the McLaren design team desired.

“We’d been under John’s strict rule, and I think we all used this as an opportunity to break out a little bit, to do some of the things that we wanted to do. It was a well-oiled team, we respected each other and we thought in the same way. Things just rolled out in a coordinated sort of way, because there weren’t a lot of ego.”

Nichols says he worked on the monocoque (developed from his MP4/3), overall layout and integration of the car whilst Jeffreys focused on the front-end of the car and its integrated front suspension. Bob Bell handled the aerodynamics and Pete Weismann was brought in to oversee the gearbox.

What resulted was a low-lying rocket powered by the Honda 1.5L V6, which would go on to be the most successful F1 machine of all time, taking both drivers’ and constructors’ titles before being superseded by Oatley’s design.

In the years following its immense success, Murray has claimed credit for the car himself, in particular rejecting suggestions that it was Nichol’s overarching concept.

The first instance of this happening came in Ian Bamsey’s book on the fabled McLaren, which credits Murray as the mind behind it and led all 17 members of the car’s design team to write a letter (detailing no less than 82 inaccuracies) arguing against it to then-newly appointed McLaren manager Martin Whitmarsh. The debate has gradually heated up ever since.

“What’s been a particular gripe of ours is that Gordon’s seems to want to perpetuate what we consider to be basically a myth, that he was responsible for the design, when actually he had very little to do with the car,” says Jeffreys.

“I think he is very concerned about his reputation and legacy. I don’t have an axe to grind with Gordon. I’ve always got on with him very well. It’s only when he comes out and kind of insults everybody who worked on the projects that he said it was all down to him, that you think, ‘Oh, hang on a minute. Why are you saying that?’”In addition to wanting to promote his T.50, Nichols suggests there is another good reason why Murray is persisting with his claim in the creation of the MP4/4.

“Every great designer has the odd faux pas – even Adrian Newey, who I consider the greatest race car designer of all time,” he says. “His McLaren [MP4-18] had so many problems it never ended up racing. But he’s had so much success since, he seems to have expunged that from his record, no-one remembers it anymore.

“Gordon had the BT55, which was by any standard a terrible car. He’s got that blot on his copy book. So now I think he feels the need to claim credit for the MP4/4, to expunge the BT55 off his record. You can see what he’s trying to do there.”

Jeffreys says he has had similar experiences, including one such incident involving the McLaren MP4/4 Owners’ Workshop Manual written by Steve Rendle.

The book is an exhaustive look at the grand prix car, interviewing all 17 members of the design team, as well as senior figures such as Dennis and Murray, who corroborated the views of Jeffreys and Nichols, at least for a certain period.

“Steve and I did a talk at Brooklands on the MP4/4,” Jefferys remembers. “We became aware Gordon had turned up and was in the back of the room. He didn’t say a word throughout the talk.

“At the end came along and presented us with two letters threatening us with the kind of stuff he said in your interview, to cease saying all these lies we said in the Haynes book, which we found surprising because the letters could have been written by us and given to him!”

“Part of our problem is that when the legendary and mighty Gordon Murray says something, people listen, us less so because we’re not ‘legendary’ in the public eyes.

Murray often cites the problematic Brabham BT55, which scored two points and racked up 19 retirements – as the initial inspiration behind the MP4/4, but both Nichols and Jeffreys refute this, explaining why any association is superficial, as well as citing the illegality of copying another car.

“None of us were looking at BT55 drawings and we wouldn’t have wanted to be either – it was a disaster,” says Jeffreys. “Why would we want a McLaren to have copied a car that had huge problems and was also two years old?

“If you also look at the MP4/3 [also designed by Nichols] and MP4/4 you can one is a development of the other – the backend is virtually identical.”

“He says ‘Compare the two cars [BT55 and MP4/4] together, you’ll see they’re almost exactly the same,’ adds Nichols. “When you look at those two cars, they’re nothing alike.

“The only similarity is that they were both low. But if you look at anything else – the rules were different [and therefore] the fuel tank size was different, the drivetrain was different, different engine, different gearbox – everything.”

Despite the wrangling, Nichols still enthuses on that period of McLaren’s history. “It was just so rewarding,” he says. “The idea of teamwork worked so well. Everybody was so good on every level, not just the drawing office and engineers.

“The manufacturing, the guys doing the laminating, the guys doing the fabricating, the marketing. It was such a blessing to be involved in that. You went in on a Saturday and everyone was in, donating their time – and there was nowhere they’d rather be. It was the ultimate expression of teamwork.”

Gordon Murray did not take up the opportunity to add to his earlier comments.
The following users liked this post:
Legend2TL (10-21-2021)
Old 10-21-2021, 10:55 AM
  #644  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
^ Thx as time has gone on, the Gordon Murray myth designing the MP4/4 he's trying to sell more and more.
The MP4/4 drew alot from the MP4/3 and it seems like the majority of McLaren engineers support Steve Nichols.

Kinda sad for the real designers, Murray contributed to the MP4/4 but mostly it was the Weismann gearbox and it's novel input shaft gear arrangement (Honda engine's crankshaft was so low, McLaren/Murray had to use a gearset to raise the power to a higher main/countershaft which fed the differential pinion/ring gear set. Below the MP4/4 gearbox, bell housing on the right.





Last edited by Legend2TL; 10-21-2021 at 10:59 AM.
The following 2 users liked this post by Legend2TL:
00TL-P3.2 (10-21-2021), F-C (10-21-2021)
Old 11-01-2021, 09:25 AM
  #645  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
PENSKE'S WARP ENGINE! The Story of the 500I 'BEAST'

REALLY interesting backstory to the MB pushrod used for the 1994 Indy 500






Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-01-2021 at 09:27 AM.
Old 11-01-2021, 03:14 PM
  #646  
F-C
Senior Moderator
 
F-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,693
Received 1,082 Likes on 776 Posts
Still one of the best motor racing story ever. Unfortunately, that also marked the end of innovation at the 500.
Old 11-01-2021, 10:12 PM
  #647  
F-C
Senior Moderator
 
F-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,693
Received 1,082 Likes on 776 Posts

So many good tidbits with AAR and Eagle. At 21:54, They are trying to complete the 1968 Eagle F1 car.
Old 11-03-2021, 11:16 AM
  #648  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
^ friend attended a lecture/talk given by Gurney in the 2000's in California, suppose to be a ~1 hour talk.
Dan wound up talking for over two hours, friend said it was an amazing lecture about his various teams, cars, and races.
Old 11-30-2021, 02:14 PM
  #649  
Moderator
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 38
Posts: 25,777
Received 5,319 Likes on 3,648 Posts
Motorsport's Top 10 Williams Drivers

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/t...ntoya/6835814/


Williams is one of Formula 1’s great teams, having racked up seven drivers’ titles and nine constructors’ crowns. Motorsport.com ranks its 10 greatest drivers.

Williams has been competing at car racing's pinnacle for more than four decades and 16 drivers have won world championship races with the team.

That makes selecting the top 10 Williams F1 drivers a challenge.

For this list we’ve taken into account the amount of success the drivers scored with Williams, the impact they had on the team and the circumstances of their time there. It doesn’t count their achievements at other teams.

10: Riccardo Patrese
Spoiler
 

9: Ralf Schumacher
Spoiler
 

8: Juan Pablo Montoya
Spoiler
 

7: Jacques Villeneuve
Spoiler
 

6: Alain Prost
Spoiler
 

5: Nelson Piquet
Spoiler
 

4: Keke Rosberg
Spoiler
 

3: Damon Hill
Spoiler
 

2: Alan Jones
Spoiler
 

1: Nigel Mansell
Spoiler
 

Last edited by 00TL-P3.2; 11-30-2021 at 02:16 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Legend2TL (12-01-2021)
Old 12-08-2021, 08:14 PM
  #650  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Damon Hill Drives the Williams FW11

Old 12-10-2021, 01:06 PM
  #651  
Moderator
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 38
Posts: 25,777
Received 5,319 Likes on 3,648 Posts
Old 12-27-2021, 10:44 AM
  #652  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Steve Nichols: An Oral History of Formula One's Greatest Era (1980 - 2000)

Not a household name, but Steve Nichols designed the MP4/4 and many other highly successful F1 cars.
Phenomenal interview, long but incredibly insightful from tales of working at McLaren to Ferrari and other F1 teams.
HIGHLY RECOMMENDED, there's a index on the time scale of the video which shows which F1 topics are being discussed.
His viewpoint of working with Mansell and Prost at Ferrari was amusing as well as comparing Senna/Prost to Max/Lewis rivalry

Old 12-27-2021, 12:54 PM
  #653  
Moderator
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 38
Posts: 25,777
Received 5,319 Likes on 3,648 Posts
Old 12-28-2021, 07:05 AM
  #654  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
For that Steve Nichol's YouTube interview, here are the chapters, amazing interview

Chapter Listing:

0:00 Introduction
4:27 Steve's Early Years
7:16 Actual Rocket Science
9:17 Beginnings in Motorsport
14:47 John Barnard, Formula One & Project Four
21:46 The MP4/1 & Carbon Crash Testing
26:13 Lotus vs McLaren's Carbon
29:31 1982/83: The "Coke Bottle" Shape
32:58 1984: The TAG Turbo Engine & Niki Lauda
38:51 How Many Engines?
40:10 1985: The Rise of Prost
43:06 John Barnard's Departure
45:29 The Arrival of Gordon Murray
47:35 1986: Designing the MP4/3 (1987 Car)
49:32 1987: Honda and Senna Arrive
51:47 Beginning the MP4/4 Design
58:35 Job Descriptions Memo
1:01:28 John Barnard and Gordon Murray Comparison
1:04:54 The "Low-Line" MP4/4
1:07:07 Ayrton Senna Seat Fitting
1:08:09 Did Gordon Bring Drawings?
1:13:09 Pre-Season Testing At Imola
1:17:34 Prost and Senna
1:22:12 Race Power & Turbo Disadvantage
1:24:52 1989 MP4/5
1:27:06 Steve Leaves McLaren
1:30:13 The Chaos of Ferrari
1:39:53 Nigel Mansell & Launch Control
1:43:55 Suzuka 1990
1:44:47 Senna's Move to Ferrari
1:45:44 The Argument Begins
1:50:43 Ian Bamsey's Response
1:55:51 Gordon's Rumours
1:58:35 The Haynes Manual
2:00:07 Murray Threatens Nichols
2:01:22 Why Is Gordon Doing This?
2:04:31 1992-93 Sauber & Jordan
2:06:07 F1's Active Era and Steve's Return to McLaren
2:11:42 Dealing with the Ban of Driver Aids
2:14:38 Mika Häkkinen
2:15:47 Brake Steer
2:23:17 1997 - 1999 F1 Season Summary
2:26:49 Max & Lewis vs Prost & Senna
2:29:53 The SENNA Movie
2:33:09 Outro
Old 12-29-2021, 03:49 PM
  #655  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Senna vs Prost – Talking F1 Rivalries with Alain Prost! | Nico Rosberg | Podcast #22

Not a great but pretty good interview with Prost by Nico Rosberg

Old 12-30-2021, 08:45 AM
  #656  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Where do F1 cars go AFTER the season ends?


https://www.mclaren.com/racing/2012/...timate-garage/
I could spend hoooooours looking at all the cars at McLaren's Unit 2





The following users liked this post:
00TL-P3.2 (12-30-2021)
Old 01-01-2022, 08:37 AM
  #657  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
When Formula 1 Teams Get Caught CHEATING

That one cheater to put his car onto to the grid and race in the 70's even when the driver/car failed to qualify is classic

Old 01-04-2022, 11:46 AM
  #658  
F-C
Senior Moderator
 
F-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,693
Received 1,082 Likes on 776 Posts
I wonder what is the percentage of cheaters that get caught? We only know the ones that get caught.
Old 01-07-2022, 09:41 AM
  #659  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Niki Lauda - Everything You Need To Know | Up to Speed

Exaggerated a little but still good.
FWIW Nike wasn't the first driver to have technical input and feedback into car development. Jackie Stewart, Jack, Brabham, Jim Clark (who worked closely with Colin Chapman on engineering Lotus cars), and Dan Gurney were among the first F1 drivers to do so.

Old 01-07-2022, 03:45 PM
  #660  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
A CFD Analysis of a Historic Formula One Car: McLaren MP4/4

The comparisons between the MP4/4 and MP4/2C with the amount of downforce and drag is interesting.
The CFD was performed with openFoam which is a open source S/W that's apparently OK for the people I know that have used it as well as more professional CFD package.


He has some other videos too, pretty dry topic but also pretty cool some people are out there doing this CFD of some of the more successful F1 cars (MP4/2, BT52)

Old 01-09-2022, 03:48 PM
  #661  
F-C
Senior Moderator
 
F-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,693
Received 1,082 Likes on 776 Posts
The monotone narration does not help!
Old 01-14-2022, 03:47 PM
  #662  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Why These 4 Countries Produce the Most F1 Champs

Some interesting country stats

Last edited by Legend2TL; 01-14-2022 at 03:49 PM.
Old 01-18-2022, 11:31 AM
  #663  
Moderator
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 38
Posts: 25,777
Received 5,319 Likes on 3,648 Posts
The following users liked this post:
Legend2TL (01-18-2022)
Old 01-20-2022, 10:27 AM
  #664  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
The 2014 Ferrari Mess Explained

Old 01-21-2022, 12:47 PM
  #665  
Moderator
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 38
Posts: 25,777
Received 5,319 Likes on 3,648 Posts
Old 01-24-2022, 07:01 AM
  #666  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
The Story of Legendary Williams FW14B - Full Documentary (2017)

The story of the 1992 championship-winning Williams-Renault FW14B, told by world champion Nigel Mansell, Riccardo Patrese, Damon Hill, Paddy Lowe, Frank Dernie, Dickie Stanford, Jonathan Williams and Sir Patrick Head. Presented by Karun Chandhok.



Old 01-24-2022, 09:35 AM
  #667  
Moderator
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 38
Posts: 25,777
Received 5,319 Likes on 3,648 Posts
Forgot to post, the article that had the McLaren evolution had a quote from Bruce's daughter on her response to the question: What 2 drivers would you have to dinner?
Her answer: "Dad & Ayrton"
Old 01-24-2022, 01:13 PM
  #668  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
360 Retrospective - F1 | Damon Hill

Hill drove ~15km of testing the FW18 not including races


Old 01-25-2022, 05:58 PM
  #669  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Hill drove ~15km of testing the FW18 not including races
15000km of testing
Old 01-26-2022, 09:07 AM
  #670  
Moderator
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 38
Posts: 25,777
Received 5,319 Likes on 3,648 Posts

I thought you'd meant 15k km, but wasn't sure if you meant 15km for that video.
Old 02-05-2022, 03:24 PM
  #671  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Secrets of F1's least-known electronic driver aid. By Peter Windsor

Old 02-17-2022, 03:06 PM
  #672  
Moderator
 
00TL-P3.2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spring, TX
Age: 38
Posts: 25,777
Received 5,319 Likes on 3,648 Posts
Unusual Moments in F1

Old 03-07-2022, 03:31 PM
  #673  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Damon's Very Special Trophy by Peter Windsor

Pretty funny story about Damon's "Clutch Release Bearing" trophy story.

Old 03-09-2022, 07:07 AM
  #674  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Top 10 Moments of Damon Hill Brilliance In F1

Old 03-10-2022, 09:20 AM
  #675  
F-C
Senior Moderator
 
F-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,693
Received 1,082 Likes on 776 Posts
I don't rate Hill at all. One of my all time villains. However, that drive in Hungary in the Arrows was legendary.
Old 03-10-2022, 09:35 AM
  #676  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
^ LOL, one of the all time great gentleman racers. Perhaps not a top-ten of all time driver but certainly highly skilled and determined when he was motivated. Adrian Newey, Alain Prost, heck today even Patrick Head today have all spoken out what a marvelous driver he was in F1. Excellent at development and extracting the most from the car. David Brown and Jock Clear (both Williams race engineers) both said he was the best driver at Williams for development.
Old 03-10-2022, 01:35 PM
  #677  
F-C
Senior Moderator
 
F-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,693
Received 1,082 Likes on 776 Posts
Originally Posted by Legend2TL
^ LOL, one of the all time great gentleman racers. Perhaps not a top-ten of all time driver but certainly highly skilled and determined when he was motivated. Adrian Newey, Alain Prost, heck today even Patrick Head today have all spoken out what a marvelous driver he was in F1. Excellent at development and extracting the most from the car. David Brown and Jock Clear (both Williams race engineers) both said he was the best driver at Williams for development.
I always take engineer's praise of drivers with a grain of salt. They are very biased because of small sample size.

I roll my eyes when I listen to Beyond the Grid and they ask the engineers "who was the best driver you ever worked with".
Old 03-11-2022, 09:16 AM
  #678  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Originally Posted by F-C
I always take engineer's praise of drivers with a grain of salt. They are very biased because of small sample size.

I roll my eyes when I listen to Beyond the Grid and they ask the engineers "who was the best driver you ever worked with".
Alain Prost is not a engineer Prost tried to hire Hill in the late 90's for his team.

To me, the villain of the 90's was Schumacher whose exploits are legendary.

but I digress, we agree to disagree on Hill
Old 03-11-2022, 06:06 PM
  #679  
F-C
Senior Moderator
 
F-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 16,693
Received 1,082 Likes on 776 Posts
Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Alain Prost is not a engineer Prost tried to hire Hill in the late 90's for his team.

To me, the villain of the 90's was Schumacher whose exploits are legendary.

but I digress, we agree to disagree on Hill
My hero was Schumacher, so Hill was the natural enemy. (Until Schumacher turned heel and moved to Ferrari.)

I was a big supporter of Benetton. I think I'm always drawn to the quirky underdog. And back then, Benetton was the quirky underdog, while Williams was the mighty top dog. So I took immense pleasure when Benetton and Schumacher kept beating Williams.

That's also why I became a Red Bull fan. Saying that they are the underdog is somewhat absurd these days, as they have one of the biggest budgets in F1. But back when they started, they came out of nowhere, had this weird non-automotive pedigree, and challenged mighty Ferrari and Mercedes.

That's what fandom is right? You pick sides for some reason or whatnot.
Old 03-15-2022, 12:34 PM
  #680  
AZ Community Team
 
Legend2TL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,862
Received 4,070 Likes on 2,525 Posts
Originally Posted by F-C
My hero was Schumacher, so Hill was the natural enemy. (Until Schumacher turned heel and moved to Ferrari.)

I was a big supporter of Benetton. I think I'm always drawn to the quirky underdog. And back then, Benetton was the quirky underdog, while Williams was the mighty top dog. So I took immense pleasure when Benetton and Schumacher kept beating Williams.

That's also why I became a Red Bull fan. Saying that they are the underdog is somewhat absurd these days, as they have one of the biggest budgets in F1. But back when they started, they came out of nowhere, had this weird non-automotive pedigree, and challenged mighty Ferrari and Mercedes.

That's what fandom is right? You pick sides for some reason or whatnot.
Meh, I liked Toleman and early Benetton, but once they were managed by Flavio Briatore and Tom Wakenshaw they became the cheating team along with the unsporting Schumacher which made them a great match. Though some great engineers came out of that team, Ross Brawn, Rory Bryne, and Bob Bell


Quick Reply: Motorsports: History and Legacy Discussion Thread



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:48 AM.