Motorsports: History and Legacy Discussion Thread
#441
AZ Community Team
Gordon Murray: The Best Drivers I Ever Worked With
#442
AZ Community Team
Why The Double Diffuser Was (Down)Forced Out Of F1
Old topic, but this video shows in good detail the various solutions for double diffusers.
#443
AZ Community Team
Rare footage unearthed of first F1 World Championship race
https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/formula1/52641917
so much has changed in 7 decades
so much has changed in 7 decades
BBC Newsreel footage of the British and European Grand Prix on 13 May 1950, designated as the first ever F1 World Championship race.
The race took place at Silverstone in the presence of King George VI, Queen Elizabeth and Princess Margaret, and was dominated by the Alfa Romeo cars.
The race took place at Silverstone in the presence of King George VI, Queen Elizabeth and Princess Margaret, and was dominated by the Alfa Romeo cars.
#444
Senior Moderator
Well, I learned something new. The first F1 race had three names:
- Royal Grand Prix
- British Grand Prix
- Grand Prix d'Europe
#445
Moderator
^ They mentioned in the broadcast over the weekend that this was the first time a race wasn't named after the region it was in. Royal Grand Prix may dispute that, unless you take one of the other names instead.
#446
Senior Moderator
Being intrigued, I Googled the 1950 race.
So the full name of the race was actually "The Royal Automobile Club Grand Prix d'Europe Incorporating The British Grand Prix".
The Royal Automobile Club is kind of like the AAA here in the states. So my interpretation is that the RAC organized and sponsored the first race. If that was the arrangement, I guess this is like the name "Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach", where the Royal Grand Prix was how the sponsor would call it, while the fans would refer it to as the Long Beach GP.
So the full name of the race was actually "The Royal Automobile Club Grand Prix d'Europe Incorporating The British Grand Prix".
The Royal Automobile Club is kind of like the AAA here in the states. So my interpretation is that the RAC organized and sponsored the first race. If that was the arrangement, I guess this is like the name "Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach", where the Royal Grand Prix was how the sponsor would call it, while the fans would refer it to as the Long Beach GP.
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00TL-P3.2 (08-10-2020)
#447
AZ Community Team
On-Board Lap w/ Mario Andretti from 1966 Indianapolis 500
#448
AZ Community Team
What to Do With the Porsche 917?
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...7-august-2020/
One day not so long ago, Richard Attwood strolled across the garage at Sonoma Raceway and lowered himself into a 1970 Porsche 917 as if it were an old Barcalounger. No fanfare, just a practiced drop. Back in the summer of 1970, at the age of 30, sharing another 917 with the German driver Hans Herrmann, Attwood won the 24 Hours of Le Mans overall.
This story originally appeared in the August 2020 issue of Road & Track.
No Porsche had then accomplished that feat. In the half-century since, the company has won Le Mans overall 18 more times. Attwood says he is not much different, just older. His hair was thicker back in 1970, he says. And so he tootled around the track at Sonoma without fuss, just the occasional burst of audible wheelspin, even though it was raining, even though the car was worth double-digit millions, even though there was so much standing water you couldnt step into an apex puddle without soaking your shoes. In truth, it probably wasnt much of an event at all, because really, when you have caned a similar machine at more than 200 mph in the middle of the night on a closed-off European two-lane, a little road course in California, even in weather thick enough to drown a cat, is less of a deal than you might think.....
This story originally appeared in the August 2020 issue of Road & Track.
No Porsche had then accomplished that feat. In the half-century since, the company has won Le Mans overall 18 more times. Attwood says he is not much different, just older. His hair was thicker back in 1970, he says. And so he tootled around the track at Sonoma without fuss, just the occasional burst of audible wheelspin, even though it was raining, even though the car was worth double-digit millions, even though there was so much standing water you couldnt step into an apex puddle without soaking your shoes. In truth, it probably wasnt much of an event at all, because really, when you have caned a similar machine at more than 200 mph in the middle of the night on a closed-off European two-lane, a little road course in California, even in weather thick enough to drown a cat, is less of a deal than you might think.....
#449
Senior Moderator
#450
AZ Community Team
Autosport 70: The loss of an F1 legend 50 years on
#451
Moderator
#452
Moderator
#453
Moderator
#455
Senior Moderator
Great video. Love the low angle shot, which really shows that elevation changes at Mugello that the normal race cams couldn't reflect.
This video also reminded me of how much I hated the Schumacher era day-glo orange paint scheme. It's painful on the eyes.
This video also reminded me of how much I hated the Schumacher era day-glo orange paint scheme. It's painful on the eyes.
#456
AZ Community Team
The 1990s F1 mistake Williams never recovered from
Knew about a few of these but some were news to me. I was surprised how little Mansell was making in 1992, only $1.5M contract for 1993. IIRC Senna was making ~$1M per race in 1993.
I knew Newey was mad about Williams sacking Hill especially when he did it all the decent drives were taken for 1997.
I knew Newey was mad about Williams sacking Hill especially when he did it all the decent drives were taken for 1997.
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00TL-P3.2 (09-17-2020)
#457
Senior Moderator
I wonder how much Mansell got from Newman/Haas. I'm guessing it was a lot less than $1 million.
#458
AZ Community Team
IDK, I read Andretti and Mansell didn't get along at Newman/Haas in 1993 due somewhat to their prior experience at Lotus in 1980. Also compounded by Mansell easily beat him while taking the 1993 CART championship. Almost won his 1st Indy 500, if he hadn't bogged the last restart, He impressed his team and other driver's as he was eager to learn. 1994 was a letdown as the Penske and Reynard cars were superior to the Lola's, though Mansell was clearly better than Andretti again. No lost love between those two. From what I've read, Mansell did love living in Florida near a golf course
#459
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Join Date: Jan 2001
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I got to run some racing go-karts at a privately owned track in Michigan with my brother. The owner was a good friend of Mansell's and Nige liked staying at this man's house because it was out in the middle of nowhere as this man put it basically, that Nigel was a bit of a freak about his family's security, he thought everyone was out to hurt him. Michael Andretti was two things when he tried racing F1: reluctant to move to Europe and too fat. Your comment Legend about Mansell and Andretti I don't understand as deAngelis was Mario's team mate at Lotus in 1980. IIRC, Mario retired before his last season began.
#460
AZ Community Team
I got to run some racing go-karts at a privately owned track in Michigan with my brother. The owner was a good friend of Mansell's and Nige liked staying at this man's house because it was out in the middle of nowhere as this man put it basically, that Nigel was a bit of a freak about his family's security, he thought everyone was out to hurt him. Michael Andretti was two things when he tried racing F1: reluctant to move to Europe and too fat. Your comment Legend about Mansell and Andretti I don't understand as deAngelis was Mario's team mate at Lotus in 1980. IIRC, Mario retired before his last season began.
That story was told by Jim McGee, who explained their dislike in some interview. Apparently both of them didn't like each other in 1980 and 1993 was no different. McGee said both driver's are kinda high maintenance but both treated their crews well.
Also said Newman and Haas were able to keep both driver's relatively happy, even though Mario kinda though of Newman Haas as his team since he'd been there over a decade.
#461
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#462
Senior Moderator
It was obvious that Mansell was going to be faster than Mario at that point. Mansell was the defending F1 champion, and he was much younger than Mario. Mario on the other hand was nearing retirement and hadn't won an IndyCar race in years. At that point, the only reason he was still racing at Newman/Haas was because of his past success. Newman/Haas had a dominant car in 92, and to be honest, it was wasted in Mario's hand. I don't know why he felt entitled if that really was the case.
#463
AZ Community Team
I got to run some racing go-karts at a privately owned track in Michigan with my brother. The owner was a good friend of Mansell's and Nige liked staying at this man's house because it was out in the middle of nowhere as this man put it basically, that Nigel was a bit of a freak about his family's security, he thought everyone was out to hurt him. Michael Andretti was two things when he tried racing F1: reluctant to move to Europe and too fat. Your comment Legend about Mansell and Andretti I don't understand as deAngelis was Mario's team mate at Lotus in 1980. IIRC, Mario retired before his last season began.
However Mario had the final say on his F1 career, when he was Ferrari's 2nd choice (Alan Jones was #1 and declined) for the last two GP's of 1982 sub'ing for the injured Pironi . A year out of retirement, Mario puts the beautiful Harvey Postlethwaite designed 126C2 on pole position in Monza. There's a writeup from Mario where he talks about him and his wife flying to Maranello, getting his seat fitted, then proceeds to put in some flying laps at Fiorano breaking the track record. Would have probably won the race had not one of the turbo's started to fail, but still came in 3rd place on the podium.
His last F1 race was at the Las Vegas GP few weeks later unfortunately the suspension broke.
Mario was so happy in front of his fellow country people standing on the podium, said it's one of his favorite races despite not winning but the joy of the Italian fans seeing him racing a Ferrari again.
He also said the 126C2 was amazing as well.
https://www.formula1.com/content/fom...0754446738.jpg
Last edited by Legend2TL; 09-17-2020 at 09:25 AM.
#464
AZ Community Team
It was obvious that Mansell was going to be faster than Mario at that point. Mansell was the defending F1 champion, and he was much younger than Mario. Mario on the other hand was nearing retirement and hadn't won an IndyCar race in years. At that point, the only reason he was still racing at Newman/Haas was because of his past success. Newman/Haas had a dominant car in 92, and to be honest, it was wasted in Mario's hand. I don't know why he felt entitled if that really was the case.
agree, Mario was sorta having a long slow CART retirement in the late 80's to mid 90's, he was Mario after all so that name in of itself probably helped ticket sales and attracted sponsors for Newman/Haas.
And yeah Mansell was at the top of his game in 1991-93.
Micheal and Nigel were ones who capitalized on the Newman/Haas Lola chassis in that period.
What's interesting is to compare Mario and Micheal in life. Mario, one marriage, Micheal three. Mario retired driving at 54, Micheal 40. Mario not interested in team ownership/management, Micheal team owner and manager of Andretti Motorsports.
#465
Senior Moderator
#466
AZ Community Team
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R J Poseidon 6 (09-17-2020)
#467
AZ Community Team
IndyCar's Billion Dollar Mistake: How One Team Changed Racing Forever
Pretty interesting, didn't know about the early USAC/Marlboro sponsorship.
Do remember the Viceroy sponsorship as I wanted my dad (who didn't smoke) to buy some Viceroy cigarettes so I could get a cool Heuer watch with their incredibly low mail in offer.
He refused
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ode-to-smoke
Do remember the Viceroy sponsorship as I wanted my dad (who didn't smoke) to buy some Viceroy cigarettes so I could get a cool Heuer watch with their incredibly low mail in offer.
He refused
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ode-to-smoke
Last edited by Legend2TL; 09-21-2020 at 07:27 AM.
#468
AZ Community Team
Why Honda aborted its 1999 F1 test car project
#469
Moderator
#470
Moderator
#471
Moderator
The last stat: Honda is the only PU provider to win with 2 teams in the turbo-hybrid era
Guess that makes RBR the only team to win with 2 PU providers, as well.
Guess that makes RBR the only team to win with 2 PU providers, as well.
#472
Moderator
#473
Senior Moderator
Which shows the dominance that the factory teams still possess even with all the teams getting "equivalent" equipment.
#474
Moderator
PU parity clearly =/= performance parity
Hadn't dawned on me that MBZ/FER/RBR have been the only tames to win since the start of the 2014 season.
#475
Senior Moderator
I'll have to use this in the fantasy league for the future.
#476
Senior Moderator
I’ll post this here since one of the drivers has long since retired:
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Legend2TL (10-04-2020)
#477
AZ Community Team
^ +1, Ironically I have similar idea of the three same periods of Hamilton
#478
Moderator
#479
Moderator
#480
Moderator
https://www.thedrive.com/news/37006/...g-nordschleife
Drivers can’t resist the idea, but adapting a modern Formula One car for the Green Hell might end up putting it halfway on stilts—unless the whole track was resurfaced and sanitized beyond recognition. It’s not an issue of bravery holding the series back from a full return, it’s just bumps.
F1 has been racing at the Nürburgring this weekend. Well, not the real Nürburgring, the GP-Strecke that’s got a lot of the exciting features of the region like low-lying fog and damp Germans sitting in stands but can’t compare to the full Nordschleife, the longest racetrack in the world and one of the most dangerous.
The sport’s top drivers have been getting misty-eyed about the Green Hell lately. Sebastian Vettel said it would be “the ultimate challenge” to race it in F1, and Max Verstappen said that if Monaco is good enough for F1’s safety standards, why can't they do the 13-mile Nordschleife? Even the Nürburgring's owners said that F1 returning to the full track—which has not happened since the 1970s—would be “the dream.”
McLaren F1 Team Principal Andreas Seidl stood out as a voice of dissent, saying it would be “a dangerous adventure” that he wasn’t “sure if anyone is ready at the moment to try.” He would know, having been part of or in charge of the last two attempts by high-end racing cars on the circuit.
Seidl was an engine engineer for BMW F1 when Nick Heidfeld did the Nordschleife run in 2007, a promotional event not looking for lap time. Which was just as well, because they had to put the car virtually on stilts and limit its speed.
F1 cars ride incredibly close to the ground, pressed even lower every time they undergo downforce. Even at smooth, modern racing circuits you often see amazing plumes of sparks as the rear bottoms out. After the track evolved a single lump at turn 10 in Sochi this year (arguably, the most interesting feature of the circuit) it started lobbing the sensitive cars and claiming rear wings.
The Nordschleife has a lot more than one, relatively shallow, lump. Heidfeld was by no means driving flat-out when he did the three filming laps in 2007. BMW bosses pleaded with him to be careful, rather than aim for lap time, and with the car wobbling at a height of four cm above the tarmac on its front wing and eight cm at the rear, that was probably the only possible option.
Even so and as BMW bosses intended, the show run happening at a crowd-pleaser event. It’s pretty special to watch.
F1 last raced the actual Nordschleife 44 years ago and it hadn’t been without controversy before then. Drivers boycotted the race over safety concerns in 1970, and Niki Lauda attempted to encourage another boycott before the disastrously wet 1976 race. The race went ahead but Lauda sadly proved his own point when he sustained near-fatal burns in a brutal crash, ending F1’s tenure on the track.
GT cars still race the full Nordschleife layout, including the famous 24-hour event but drivers require an additional license (above the standard competition one) to prove they have enough experience to race safely there.
F1 has been racing at the Nürburgring this weekend. Well, not the real Nürburgring, the GP-Strecke that’s got a lot of the exciting features of the region like low-lying fog and damp Germans sitting in stands but can’t compare to the full Nordschleife, the longest racetrack in the world and one of the most dangerous.
The sport’s top drivers have been getting misty-eyed about the Green Hell lately. Sebastian Vettel said it would be “the ultimate challenge” to race it in F1, and Max Verstappen said that if Monaco is good enough for F1’s safety standards, why can't they do the 13-mile Nordschleife? Even the Nürburgring's owners said that F1 returning to the full track—which has not happened since the 1970s—would be “the dream.”
McLaren F1 Team Principal Andreas Seidl stood out as a voice of dissent, saying it would be “a dangerous adventure” that he wasn’t “sure if anyone is ready at the moment to try.” He would know, having been part of or in charge of the last two attempts by high-end racing cars on the circuit.
Seidl was an engine engineer for BMW F1 when Nick Heidfeld did the Nordschleife run in 2007, a promotional event not looking for lap time. Which was just as well, because they had to put the car virtually on stilts and limit its speed.
F1 cars ride incredibly close to the ground, pressed even lower every time they undergo downforce. Even at smooth, modern racing circuits you often see amazing plumes of sparks as the rear bottoms out. After the track evolved a single lump at turn 10 in Sochi this year (arguably, the most interesting feature of the circuit) it started lobbing the sensitive cars and claiming rear wings.
The Nordschleife has a lot more than one, relatively shallow, lump. Heidfeld was by no means driving flat-out when he did the three filming laps in 2007. BMW bosses pleaded with him to be careful, rather than aim for lap time, and with the car wobbling at a height of four cm above the tarmac on its front wing and eight cm at the rear, that was probably the only possible option.
Even so and as BMW bosses intended, the show run happening at a crowd-pleaser event. It’s pretty special to watch.
F1 last raced the actual Nordschleife 44 years ago and it hadn’t been without controversy before then. Drivers boycotted the race over safety concerns in 1970, and Niki Lauda attempted to encourage another boycott before the disastrously wet 1976 race. The race went ahead but Lauda sadly proved his own point when he sustained near-fatal burns in a brutal crash, ending F1’s tenure on the track.
GT cars still race the full Nordschleife layout, including the famous 24-hour event but drivers require an additional license (above the standard competition one) to prove they have enough experience to race safely there.