2009 Season F1 Technology Thread
#1
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
2009 Season F1 Technology Thread
Ross Brawn has revealed that Honda ran a fully working, near-2009 specification Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS) at last week’s test in Jerez.
KERS, which stores energy otherwise lost during braking and converts it into power, is allowed to be used in Formula 1 cars from next year – but many teams have expressed doubts as to whether their systems will be ready for the start of the season and some have experienced high-profile teething problems.
Yet Honda appears to be bang on schedule with its unit and Brawn is confident that his team has made significant progress while working on KERS in Jerez.
"The test was a critical stage in our development of KERS,” he said.
“Although installed in a 'mule' car, the KERS system was fully functioning and very close to 2009 specification.
“Alex [Wurz] was able to give an invaluable input into the track behaviour of our KERS system and highlight several areas we need to focus on.
“A very valuable test and I am extremely pleased with the performance and the progress we have made with the system."
Wurz, who was at the wheel of the KERS-equipped test ‘mule’, added that developing the energy-storing device is presenting a fascinating challenge for the team.
“It was good to spend three days in the car this week and we were able to achieve a great deal of beneficial work,” he said.
“Today we ran our KERS system which was a very interesting and promising experience.
“Every time that we run with KERS, we learn more and start to fully understand its possibilities.
“It's such an interesting challenge and one that we look forward to developing further over the next few tests."
KERS, which stores energy otherwise lost during braking and converts it into power, is allowed to be used in Formula 1 cars from next year – but many teams have expressed doubts as to whether their systems will be ready for the start of the season and some have experienced high-profile teething problems.
Yet Honda appears to be bang on schedule with its unit and Brawn is confident that his team has made significant progress while working on KERS in Jerez.
"The test was a critical stage in our development of KERS,” he said.
“Although installed in a 'mule' car, the KERS system was fully functioning and very close to 2009 specification.
“Alex [Wurz] was able to give an invaluable input into the track behaviour of our KERS system and highlight several areas we need to focus on.
“A very valuable test and I am extremely pleased with the performance and the progress we have made with the system."
Wurz, who was at the wheel of the KERS-equipped test ‘mule’, added that developing the energy-storing device is presenting a fascinating challenge for the team.
“It was good to spend three days in the car this week and we were able to achieve a great deal of beneficial work,” he said.
“Today we ran our KERS system which was a very interesting and promising experience.
“Every time that we run with KERS, we learn more and start to fully understand its possibilities.
“It's such an interesting challenge and one that we look forward to developing further over the next few tests."
#2
Senior Moderator
^^,.....and interesting.
I suppose Toyota/Honda had a little bit of an advantage having already had a little bit of exposure to KERS systems in working on their road cars perhaps. Maybe not, but having worked on that type of stuff for cars like the FCX might have given a little bit of help.
I suppose Toyota/Honda had a little bit of an advantage having already had a little bit of exposure to KERS systems in working on their road cars perhaps. Maybe not, but having worked on that type of stuff for cars like the FCX might have given a little bit of help.
#3
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
I think Toyota said that the KERS technology that they are planning in their road cars are already more powerful than what is allowed by the FIA in F1 next year.
#5
Big Block go VROOOM!
Suggestion for consideration: There seems to be a considerable number of technical changes in store for 2009. What says the collective on renaming this the 2009 F1 Tech. thread or some such?
#6
6G TLX-S
The Honda 2008 F1 cars fell to the back so much that it's not worthwhile directing lots of resources to fix them, unlike most other teams that are still competing for points. As a result, lots of Honda resources go to the 2009 cars, and thus the working KERS ahead of everyone else.
#7
6G TLX-S
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#8
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
#10
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
#11
Big Block go VROOOM!
So what's with this new rule in the '09 technical regulations? Can they possibly shun technical innovation further?
What is the definition of "...adds no value to Formula One in general..."?
2.5 New systems or technologies:
Any new system, procedure or technology not specifically covered by these regulations, but which is deemed permissible by the FIA Formula One technical Department, will only be admitted until the end of the Championship during which it is introduced. Following this the Formula One Commission will be asked to review the technology concerned and, if they feel it adds no value to Formula One in general, it will be specifically prohibited.
Any team whose technology is prohibited in this way will then be required to publish full technical details of the relevant system or procedure.
Any new system, procedure or technology not specifically covered by these regulations, but which is deemed permissible by the FIA Formula One technical Department, will only be admitted until the end of the Championship during which it is introduced. Following this the Formula One Commission will be asked to review the technology concerned and, if they feel it adds no value to Formula One in general, it will be specifically prohibited.
Any team whose technology is prohibited in this way will then be required to publish full technical details of the relevant system or procedure.
#12
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
If Ferrari came up with it, it will be of value to F1. If McLaren came up with it, it is of no value and should be shared to other teams.
Man, this is so lame. We'll all be watching only ALMS in a few years.
#13
Senior Moderator
#14
6G TLX-S
Why is Ferrari always getting special treatment ? I still remember a couple years ago, Bridgestone was throwing all it's resources to tailor the F1 tires for Ferrari, and so all other teams have to use these "custom Ferrari" tires. This was exactly the reason why so many teams had switched over to Michelin the following season.
#15
Big Block go VROOOM!
Here are the key 2009 technical changes as they were summarized by Racecar Engineering magazine:
Gearboxes must now last four entire race weekends with only the ratios being changed
Front wing width increased from 1,400mm to 1,800mm
Central 500mm of front wing to be an FIA-specified, single element profile
Front wing minimum height reduced from 150mm to 75mm. Front wing leading edge more than 250mm from car center line may now be 1,000mm ahead of front wheel center line (previously 900mm)
From 400mm to 700mm outboard of the car center line, front wing configuration appears to be free within a 550mm chord and 200mm vertical depth bounding box
Front end plates effectively take up the outer 150mm of wing assembly span
Driver may adjust incidence angle of a single outer front flap section each side over a six degree range a maximum of twice per lap
Maximum width of bodywork between front and rear wheels 1400mm as before, but more than 100mm above the reference plane must now form single continuous curved surfaces with no radius less than 75mm and no protrusions within defined volumes
Rear wing width reduced from 1,000mm to 750mm, height increased from 800mm to 950mm
Rear wing end plates increased in area from 230,000 square mm to 330,000 square mm
Diffuser outer sections more than 75mm from car center line must start in line with rear wheel center line. Maximum diffuser height increased from 125mm to 175mm. Outer diffuser sections may now extend to 350mm behind rear wheel center line. Maximum diffuser width 1,000mm.
Front wing width increased from 1,400mm to 1,800mm
Central 500mm of front wing to be an FIA-specified, single element profile
Front wing minimum height reduced from 150mm to 75mm. Front wing leading edge more than 250mm from car center line may now be 1,000mm ahead of front wheel center line (previously 900mm)
From 400mm to 700mm outboard of the car center line, front wing configuration appears to be free within a 550mm chord and 200mm vertical depth bounding box
Front end plates effectively take up the outer 150mm of wing assembly span
Driver may adjust incidence angle of a single outer front flap section each side over a six degree range a maximum of twice per lap
Maximum width of bodywork between front and rear wheels 1400mm as before, but more than 100mm above the reference plane must now form single continuous curved surfaces with no radius less than 75mm and no protrusions within defined volumes
Rear wing width reduced from 1,000mm to 750mm, height increased from 800mm to 950mm
Rear wing end plates increased in area from 230,000 square mm to 330,000 square mm
Diffuser outer sections more than 75mm from car center line must start in line with rear wheel center line. Maximum diffuser height increased from 125mm to 175mm. Outer diffuser sections may now extend to 350mm behind rear wheel center line. Maximum diffuser width 1,000mm.
#16
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Driver adjustable wing angles are going to be interesting. I loved the early '90 cars where the drivers could adjust the ride height.
Can gear ratios be changed for reliability?
Can gear ratios be changed for reliability?
#17
6G TLX-S
Yes, moving flaps ..... this is gonna be interesting. But how can FIA monitor that each driver hasn't adjusted the angles more than twice a lap ?
#18
Big Block go VROOOM!
Hmmm... I just tried searching the copy of the technical regulations I downloaded and I couldn't find any reference to the movable front wing elements. Then again, I'm not going to peer too deeply into 46 pages of tiny headache-inducing text.
#19
Big Block go VROOOM!
FWIW - Here's the link where I got the 2009 technical regulations from:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...EGULATIONS.pdf
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...EGULATIONS.pdf
#20
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Formula 1's manufacturer teams say they would reject any moves towards standard engines, but would be open to more restrictive engine regulations if necessary.
Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosley have both hinted that switching to a single F1 engine - which manufacturers could still put their individual badge on even though the units would be technically identical - could be the solution to the sport's spiralling costs.
But Toyota team president John Howett believes this suggestion is politically motivated, and would be contrary to F1's spirit.
"I could say controversially that the negotiating stance historically in Formula 1 has been to put an extreme proposal on the table and then that encourages the teams to move in a direction, so we may just be, at the moment, purely in a negotiating tactic," said Howett.
"I think that the teams have a lot of ideas to actually save money but at the same time not destroy the core DNA or value of Formula 1.
"Hopefully for once we can put politics behind these discussions and really focus on the facts, the real issues and then we will find, I am sure, good solutions.
"I think that the danger is that a knee-jerk reaction could be catastrophic.
"I think a lot of the manufacturers are concerned about having a spec engine, because one of the core interests is at least having some differentiation in the power unit."
Honda's Nick Fry agreed with this stance, and reckoned that the manufacturers could come up with suitable proposals while protecting F1's technical integrity.
"I think certainly from the Honda side and I suspect from some of the other manufacturers' sides we would like to preserve the ability to design and make that engine as it is part of our brand identity," he said.
"But making the specification a lot more prescriptive, making it a lot cheaper, is something I think that many of us would support.
"In our case we are the largest manufacturer of internal combustion engines in the world, it's the core of the company.
"But on the other hand, a specification engine or a prescriptive engine, where the design was very, very tight, the materials were very tightly controlled, but we had the ability to put our brand identity on it in that we were designing it, we were making the thing, then that's a very different proposition and I think you would be able to reduce the costs very significantly by doing that.
"So I think the end result may not be massively different but the thinking behind it is very, very different."
Mosley will meet with the newly-formed Formula One Teams' Association following the Chinese Grand Prix to discuss cost-cutting plans.
The FIA has already announced that if FOTA cannot come up with suitable proposals, it will impose its own regulations to reduce expenditure.
But Mario Theissen - whose BMW Sauber team also opposes standard engines - is optimistic about FOTA's progress.
"In my view the ongoing discussions under the umbrella of FOTA are the most constructive I have seen in Formula 1 because it is clear to all of the teams that we have to do something, we have to achieve something and it only works if we come to a joint proposal," he said.
"I am sure within a few weeks or months we will be able to come up with proposals which will really make a difference to what we see today in terms of costs, in terms of improving the spectacle and the commercial viability of Formula 1."
Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosley have both hinted that switching to a single F1 engine - which manufacturers could still put their individual badge on even though the units would be technically identical - could be the solution to the sport's spiralling costs.
But Toyota team president John Howett believes this suggestion is politically motivated, and would be contrary to F1's spirit.
"I could say controversially that the negotiating stance historically in Formula 1 has been to put an extreme proposal on the table and then that encourages the teams to move in a direction, so we may just be, at the moment, purely in a negotiating tactic," said Howett.
"I think that the teams have a lot of ideas to actually save money but at the same time not destroy the core DNA or value of Formula 1.
"Hopefully for once we can put politics behind these discussions and really focus on the facts, the real issues and then we will find, I am sure, good solutions.
"I think that the danger is that a knee-jerk reaction could be catastrophic.
"I think a lot of the manufacturers are concerned about having a spec engine, because one of the core interests is at least having some differentiation in the power unit."
Honda's Nick Fry agreed with this stance, and reckoned that the manufacturers could come up with suitable proposals while protecting F1's technical integrity.
"I think certainly from the Honda side and I suspect from some of the other manufacturers' sides we would like to preserve the ability to design and make that engine as it is part of our brand identity," he said.
"But making the specification a lot more prescriptive, making it a lot cheaper, is something I think that many of us would support.
"In our case we are the largest manufacturer of internal combustion engines in the world, it's the core of the company.
"But on the other hand, a specification engine or a prescriptive engine, where the design was very, very tight, the materials were very tightly controlled, but we had the ability to put our brand identity on it in that we were designing it, we were making the thing, then that's a very different proposition and I think you would be able to reduce the costs very significantly by doing that.
"So I think the end result may not be massively different but the thinking behind it is very, very different."
Mosley will meet with the newly-formed Formula One Teams' Association following the Chinese Grand Prix to discuss cost-cutting plans.
The FIA has already announced that if FOTA cannot come up with suitable proposals, it will impose its own regulations to reduce expenditure.
But Mario Theissen - whose BMW Sauber team also opposes standard engines - is optimistic about FOTA's progress.
"In my view the ongoing discussions under the umbrella of FOTA are the most constructive I have seen in Formula 1 because it is clear to all of the teams that we have to do something, we have to achieve something and it only works if we come to a joint proposal," he said.
"I am sure within a few weeks or months we will be able to come up with proposals which will really make a difference to what we see today in terms of costs, in terms of improving the spectacle and the commercial viability of Formula 1."
Okay, who here would watch a spec engine F-1 championship? If that ever happened, I'd switch to sports cars, and I would suspect that many manufacturers would as well.
That's the slippery slope that F1 has put themselves in. First with spec tires and spec ECUs. Next, we will have spec transmissions, brakes, wings. Eventually, the whole car will be spec.
#21
6G TLX-S
When that happens, I'm sure F1 will soon be absorbed into IndyCar just like ChampCar, and previous F1 factory teams will start a new formula series by themselves (perhaps F0 or F-zero), thereby continuing the F1 spirit of utilizing leading edge auto technologies in open-wheel racing.
#22
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Formula One racing’s governing body, the FIA, has invited tenders for a third party supplier of engines and transmission systems to be used by competitors in the 2010, 2011 and 2012 world championships.
However, existing teams and engine suppliers could still be allowed to build their own engines, providing they are to the same standardised design specified by the third party supplier.
The move to a single engine is one of several ideas being proposed by the FIA as a means of further reducing costs and increasing competitiveness in the sport, which already has a freeze on engine development.
However, existing teams and engine suppliers could still be allowed to build their own engines, providing they are to the same standardised design specified by the third party supplier.
The move to a single engine is one of several ideas being proposed by the FIA as a means of further reducing costs and increasing competitiveness in the sport, which already has a freeze on engine development.
#25
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
By 2009, we will be discussing which car has the best KERS or dampers, because everyone will have the same engines.
Just to be clear, it is only a proposal right now. Obviously the manufacturers will fight this.
Just to be clear, it is only a proposal right now. Obviously the manufacturers will fight this.
#26
Big Block go VROOOM!
Does anyone happen to know the engine rules for the major F3 series (Britain, Italy, Germany, etc...)? From the various articles I've read I get the impression that the engine situation in F3 is extremely restrctive to the point that their almost all identical like the F1 proposal. I bring this up because it seems like there's a decent amount of manufacturer competition within F3. Again, though, that's based a fairly limited number of articles I've read.
#27
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
From the FIA Article 275 (regulations on F3):
Therefore, the engines are unique, although modifications are heavily restricted. The British F3 series has Mugen-Honda and AMG-Mercedes that are of separate designs and not just badged differently.
5.4 Engine modifications :
5.4.1) The engine block and engine head castings,machining completed,
must be those of a car engine equipping a
car model of which the FIA has ascertained the series production
of at least 2500 units in 12 consecutive months.
Each engine must be homologated by the FIA, and described on
an homologation form for Formula 3 engines.
5.4.2) The original engine block and cylinder head may be
modified by the removal of material, but addition of material is not
permitted. However, it is permitted to sleeve an engine block, by
welding if necessary, that originally is not fitted with sleeves, to
modify or close the lubrication holes in the cylinder head, close
standard injector holes or to use helicoils.
5.4.1) The engine block and engine head castings,machining completed,
must be those of a car engine equipping a
car model of which the FIA has ascertained the series production
of at least 2500 units in 12 consecutive months.
Each engine must be homologated by the FIA, and described on
an homologation form for Formula 3 engines.
5.4.2) The original engine block and cylinder head may be
modified by the removal of material, but addition of material is not
permitted. However, it is permitted to sleeve an engine block, by
welding if necessary, that originally is not fitted with sleeves, to
modify or close the lubrication holes in the cylinder head, close
standard injector holes or to use helicoils.
#29
F1 cart racer
wow...goodbye F1 and what i knew of you.....someone needs to bitch slap the FIA. can they not see the competitiveness that has occurred this seasoncuss:? manufactures are suppose to be individual. i have a strong feeling all the major players will reject many proposals while small companies will like them. however F1 has always brought about the most advanced systems now seen in some of today's road cars, they are the leaders of technology development.
i am really starting to to hate all racing and trying to make everyone equal? then whats the point of racing. racing is you have a set of broadish guidlines, you bring what you build and hopefully what you have is the winning machine. making restrictions so strict and having one engine, one ecu, one everything is not racing....
so aggravated, if you got the money to invest in something let them do it.....
i am really starting to to hate all racing and trying to make everyone equal? then whats the point of racing. racing is you have a set of broadish guidlines, you bring what you build and hopefully what you have is the winning machine. making restrictions so strict and having one engine, one ecu, one everything is not racing....
so aggravated, if you got the money to invest in something let them do it.....
Last edited by AS3.0CL; 10-17-2008 at 08:18 PM.
#30
6G TLX-S
Spec engines ..... Auto manufacturers might just as well kiss F1 goodbye. There remains McLaren-spec_engine, Williams-spec_engine, Red_Bull-spec_engine, Toro_Rosso_spec_engine, Force_India-spec_engine.
#31
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
The FIA has revealed that it is willing to consider alternatives to standard engines for 2010-2012, provided the other options are sufficiently cost-effective.
On Friday the governing body opened a tender for the supply of single engines and gearboxes from 2010, prompting speculation that the FIA had decided to impose engine standardisation before the Formula One Teams' Association had submitted its own proposals.
But the FIA has now released more details of the meeting it will have with FOTA tomorrow, where introducing standard engines will be just one of three options presented to the teams.
The other suggestions on the table are restricting existing engines to equalise performance with a new low-cost single engine, or massively reducing the cost of customer engine deals.
The FIA document lists the following possibilities:
"Option 1: A homologated engine produced by a single supplier after an invitation to tender, with the current suppliers free to build an identical engine themselves (but not the gearbox), subject to rigorous controls.
"Option 2: A consortium of teams obtains an engine to current rules but at much lower cost from a single supplier. Engines from other sources to be subject to rigorous controls to eliminate differences in performance.
"Option 3: A proposal from FOTA, backed by solid guarantees, for the supply of complete power trains to independent teams for less than €5 million per team per season to include 30,000 km of testing and all on-track assistance."
The FIA's explanatory notes also reveal that all such proposals are intended as interim measures prior to a total change in the engine rules for 2013.
"The FIA would like to see a modern high technology power train in 2013," said the FIA document.
"We envisage a down-sized DI engine with exhaust energy and heat recovery, coupled to an electrically actuated gearbox.
"However, we are completely open to new ideas.
"The only preconditions are (i) that the costs of development, maintenance and unit production for the power train must be an order of magnitude lower than is currently the case and (ii) power trains must be available to independent teams at minimal cost."
The governing body is also asking FOTA to suggest other areas on the car that could be standardised to save costs - including suspension, underbodies and wheels.
The document reiterated the FIA's desire to urgently reduce the cost of participating in F1, suggesting that it wants costs to come down sufficiently that the 'television money' provided by Formula One Management can cover the majority of teams' annual expenditure.
"The FIA’s view is that Formula 1 can only be healthy if a team can race competitively for a budget at or very close to what it gets from FOM," it said.
On Friday the governing body opened a tender for the supply of single engines and gearboxes from 2010, prompting speculation that the FIA had decided to impose engine standardisation before the Formula One Teams' Association had submitted its own proposals.
But the FIA has now released more details of the meeting it will have with FOTA tomorrow, where introducing standard engines will be just one of three options presented to the teams.
The other suggestions on the table are restricting existing engines to equalise performance with a new low-cost single engine, or massively reducing the cost of customer engine deals.
The FIA document lists the following possibilities:
"Option 1: A homologated engine produced by a single supplier after an invitation to tender, with the current suppliers free to build an identical engine themselves (but not the gearbox), subject to rigorous controls.
"Option 2: A consortium of teams obtains an engine to current rules but at much lower cost from a single supplier. Engines from other sources to be subject to rigorous controls to eliminate differences in performance.
"Option 3: A proposal from FOTA, backed by solid guarantees, for the supply of complete power trains to independent teams for less than €5 million per team per season to include 30,000 km of testing and all on-track assistance."
The FIA's explanatory notes also reveal that all such proposals are intended as interim measures prior to a total change in the engine rules for 2013.
"The FIA would like to see a modern high technology power train in 2013," said the FIA document.
"We envisage a down-sized DI engine with exhaust energy and heat recovery, coupled to an electrically actuated gearbox.
"However, we are completely open to new ideas.
"The only preconditions are (i) that the costs of development, maintenance and unit production for the power train must be an order of magnitude lower than is currently the case and (ii) power trains must be available to independent teams at minimal cost."
The governing body is also asking FOTA to suggest other areas on the car that could be standardised to save costs - including suspension, underbodies and wheels.
The document reiterated the FIA's desire to urgently reduce the cost of participating in F1, suggesting that it wants costs to come down sufficiently that the 'television money' provided by Formula One Management can cover the majority of teams' annual expenditure.
"The FIA’s view is that Formula 1 can only be healthy if a team can race competitively for a budget at or very close to what it gets from FOM," it said.
I still say it was a big mistake by the teams to give up on the GPWC.
#32
Senior Moderator
The FIA needs to just quit coming up with all this year after year stupid shit to try to cut costs of the sport which every team says adds more cost. This wont be a manufacturer sport any more, its going to turn into a template design like nascar at the way they are going. They need to step back and let the teams do what they do best. Design and Race.. They are taking away from the sport.
#33
Big Block go VROOOM!
The technology that's out there for use by F1 has got to the point where they've effectively priced themselves out of existance. There has to be cost containment measures of some form put in place or the series will cease to exist.
The one comment I'll make is that if a spec engine and gearbox comes to pass, then they better damn well mandate a spec underbody as well since the size and shape of the engine/gearbox package dictates much of what can be done with the underbody.
The one comment I'll make is that if a spec engine and gearbox comes to pass, then they better damn well mandate a spec underbody as well since the size and shape of the engine/gearbox package dictates much of what can be done with the underbody.
#34
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
I think the best way to contain cost is to have all the books audited by an independent agency/accountant. Every team would need to set up separate bank accounts, where every single payment to employees/suppliers is audited.
This would be very difficult to achieve though.
This would be very difficult to achieve though.
#36
Unofficial Goat
iTrader: (1)
The FIA needs to just quit coming up with all this year after year stupid shit to try to cut costs of the sport which every team says adds more cost. This wont be a manufacturer sport any more, its going to turn into a template design like nascar at the way they are going. They need to step back and let the teams do what they do best. Design and Race.. They are taking away from the sport.
#38
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
since when has racing been about keeping budgets in check? it's always been about who can build the best car, and if it meant spending the most money so be it. Racing by nature is an elitist sport IMO, there is no need to try and reshape the rules to make it more inclusive for those who can't afford to pay to play. the FIA needs to stop being such a bunch of greedy bastards, hopefully the teams walk away from them and then let's see how they pay for their hookers.
But I'm with Dougler and everyone else here. F1 should be completely open. What if there is a hard crash? What if the economy is in recession and all the manufacturers decide to leave the sport? I say that is fine. The series would be full of independents again. We'd have a field of McLaren-Cosworth, Williams-Ilmor, and Dallara-AER. The biggest impact would be with the loss of sponsorship to the sport from the manufacturers. Max obviously wants the manufacturers to stay, because they pay the big bucks, but he wants to control their spending so they won't eventually leave.