Well, I hate to say but I think it's time to admit...

RPTVs are a dying breed.

Why? Because everyone thinks hanging their TV on the wall is cool. Seems everyone thinks flatscreen=HD. Even though new RPTVs are only 8-12" deep have 10000:1 contrast ratios and 2x the resolution for 1/2 the price.

While good plasma TVs are nice; they are also very $$. A good 60"+ plasma with 1080i/p resolution is going to run you a lot of $$ ($14k). I personally would get a 60"+ LCD TV; but I'm waiting for a decent one to come out.

So while the sheep enjoy their EDTV or 720p plasmas we continue to lose true 1080p 10000:1 contrast DLP/LCoS sets left and right.

So... just to put some nails in the RPTV coffins...

JVC dropped all of their LCoS models besides the thin series... (they only sell 2 RPTVs now)

Toshiba completely dropped their lines...

Mitsubishi has dropped a few models

...

On a positive note you can pickup a 70" JVC LCoS model for around $2200 now...

 

I'd still rock a Samsung DLP, although I'm wondering why their Ultra Slim models still haven't arrived.

There are plenty decent 60"+ LCD's, they just cost a fortune.

I think the other thing hurting RPTV is the availability, affordability, and surging popularity of front projection. Epson/Samsung/etc are making huge inroads with their affordable 1080p models (that all seem to come with free screens from any of the major retailers).

 

ya, even Sharp has a 52" LCD right around $2k; I saw one this past weekend at costco. Great picture for HD; but it's SDTV quality is horrible. You'd need an external video/signal processor to make it look good.

I guess we'll eventually get affordable 60"+ LCD(s)


If my Mitsu dies I guess I'll be buying a Samsung DLP... unless LCD prices drop more by then.

Perhaps RPTV will make a comeback when more people get educated on technology... but if LCD prices continue to drop and quality keeps going up as it is... I don't see it happening.

 

my 42 philips lcd was cheaper than any of the comparable dlps. 720p though

 

this could be said about any fixed resolution HDTV, RP or otherwise. just about all of them use god awful upscaling hardware as such, SDTV almost always looks like garbage on an HD set. moreso on 1920x1080 sets.

 

Cheapy brands have bad scalers, a lot of the better manufacturers don't... mitsubishi, samsung, pioneer/panasonic. Mitsubishi probably being the best. Depends on the models too...

Some TVs are by far worse than others. The latest sharp being one of them...

The analog is almost unwatchable IMO on the sharp.

 

I ended up going with a 61" Samsung LED DLP. So far so good. What I got for the price was well worth it. ($2150 shipped)

 

For one, 1080 resolution is overrated unless you're sitting close enough to notice. The general rule of thumb is 1.5x the screen size, so unless you're sitting close you won't notice the advantage of having true 1080 resolution. Two, contrast numbers are worthless. There is no industry standard for contrast ratio, so spouting numbers means nothing.

I'll stack my 50" Pioneer 5080 against any RPTV because of the phenomenal black levels, which is probably the most overlooked aspect of picture quality. Proper black levels give you better shadow detail and color accuracy.

 

So I'm replacing my 50" rear projection HDTV for this:

Samsung LN-T5281F

Also got a Blu-Ray player to feed it:

Samsung BD-P1200

And this console to put it on:

Churchill TV Console

I haven't decided whether I'm going to wall mount the TV yet.

Next up will be figuring out which receiver to go with it. The Onkyo being discussed in the receiver thread seems really nice and might be the winner.

 

Can't say I'll miss the RPTV. I've never liked them

 

Holy ! You haven't found a 5281 in stores yet right? You'll be dropping at least 4k when those babies come out. But, damn that's a nice set.

I live just a few miles down 88 from you so you might see me stop in for the World Series, Super Bowl, etc.

 

5281F is on display at BB in Bolingbrook. The picture is absolutely phenomenal. And yes, I dropped 5K on it. Will have it on 9/14.

 

Damn that 81-series is gorgeous. Hard to swallow the price tag when you can obtain the 71-series for less than half the price, and the 65-series for a fraction.

I want a 5781

 

Yeah that was $7k. More than I was willing to spend but also gorgeous.

 

In January all of them will be $2k cheaper.

 

Don't know about $2k, but they will definitely be cheaper. It's the technology game.

 

Sorry but 1080p is not overrated. On a 65" screen the difference between 720p and 1080p is easily seen. Perhaps your blind but it's the difference of 1 MILLION pixels vs 2 MILLION pixels. It's 2x the quality... Sorry you haven't seen a good TV... or you watch on very small TVs. The *only* people who say that 1m pixels vs 2m pixels isn't worth it is people with small TVs or people who hate the idea they don't have full HD resolution on their set.

And a CRT based RPTV has better blacks and a better picture than your plasma if properly tuned. Any 9" based CRT model that is. Only the 9" CRT RPTVs are even capable of producing 1080i natively. Unfortunately it's very few models that have 9" guns. You'd lose against any CRT model that has been calibrated. CRTs produce the blackest blacks of all the TV technology to date. The only competition it has is SED and OLED. CRTs are OFF when they do blacks... doesn't get any darker...

It's actually sub contrast that gives you proper shadow detail. You can have a real black screen with washed out sub contrast (shadow detail). Lots of plasmas have horrible sub contrast but are very bright.

Plasmas have all sorts of other problems.... video mosquito noise that's inerrant in the picture/technology. Odd resolutions, and pixel spacing is pretty annoying to me. Giving the screen door effect on most models. While there are some top of the line Plasmas with good black levels and excellent resolution they are upwards of $10k.

Once the OLED stuff starts making it's way out you'll see a switch over to it. It has blacks equal to CRT and it doesn't require any back lighting. It's sub contrast is absolutely unreal as well. Goto the CES show next trip and you'll see some. You can see some next to $10k+ plasmas and you tell me which looks better, and that 1080p isn't all that.

 

If you noticed, I said 1080 is overrated unless you're sitting close enough. Obviously, the bigger the display, the more room you have to notice the advantage. I didn't say 1080 was worthless. But if you have a 65" display and sit 15 feet away, you won't notice a difference. In all likelihood, that isn't the case, but I clearly said 1080 is only worth it unless you're sitting close enough. Even the Imaging Science Foundation lists resolution as the fourth most-important aspect of picture quality out of four criteria.

And RPTVs have their own unique problems, such as having the rainbow effect, which to me is annoying, and viewing angle. If RPTVs are so great, why are they dying out? It can't just be the coolness factor of flat panels, especially since you can get more screen inches per dollar with RPTV.

Sorry but I'm not blind, as you insinuate. Now, if you're trying to compare a 65" RPTV to a 50" plasma, that's not quite fair. I'm talking apples to apples. Yes, if I get close enough to my 50" plasma, I get the screen-door effect, but I don't sit that close. By overrated, I mean manufacturers are using 1080 as the end-all-be-all measurement of picture quality, and that is just not the case. Now, if I were to get a 65" plasma, I would've gotten a 1080 panel.

 

Damn, nice TV. I was considering waiting on purchasing a display until the 81-series Samsungs were available, until I found out what the MSRP was.

 

And black level does affect shadow detail. The blacker your blacks, the more shades of gray the TV can display. Displays with poor black levels experience black crush, where dark areas are just one big splotch of "black."

 

BTW, I'm not knocking RPTVs has much as it may appear. I'm definitely of the school of "buy what YOU think looks best."

 

Siggy, question: You are obviously quite knowledgeable, and I was wondering whether you've had your display professionally calibrated (ISF). If so, what are your impressions? Is it worth it? I've been quoted anywhere from $350 to $800 (which would include a full speaker/sound calibration, too).

I'm enjoying my Pioneer 5080, but have noticed a bit of black crush. Scanning the AVSforum, it appears that the 5080s out of the box have a bit of red push and the IRE at the low end is low.

 

*ONLY* DLP with a color wheel suffers from the rainbow effect... no other RPTV does i.e. LCoS, LCD, or CRT based.

ya, so we agree on 1080p, I for one would never consider anything smaller than 60" for a home theater.... I mean how far are you sitting from your screen anyway? I only sit 9-10' from my 65" Even on a 50" set you can see the difference between 720p and 1080i from 9'.

It's 100% of the coolness factor of flat panels. No other reason what so ever... People have associated HDTV with flat panels. And most people buy them to place them as a piece of art in their house.... I think it's totally stupid to hang a plasma/lcd over their fireplace requiring you to look up the entire time you view the set. Anyone who has ever taken an ergonomics class would know the best viewing location is at eye level. Again, people want to show it off... that's what they care about. Now if you have no other room to put the thing I can understand... but that's not the case for most people.

 

You can have a set with excellent blacks and have no shadow detail (sub contrast). It's a lot more than just how dark it can get. The color decoder and video processing have a lot to do with it.

Just as you can have a set with crappy black but excellent sub contrast (shadow detail as you call it)

You sound like an AVS reader since you seen to speak their made up lingo/terms.

 

Ya it's worth it....

It took around 11 hours to calibrate my RPTV. CRT calibrations take longer than a digital set.



If you can find someone who has the same TV that was ISF calibrated by someone who know's what they are doing write down all of their numbers and try them.

On most digital sets you can get away with someone else's service menu settings and standard menu settings. You'll be within 5-8% of their picture. (plasma phosphor wear and time in use can effect the calibration)


You shouldn't have to pay more than $400 to get a plasma calibrated.

BTW the "ISF" certification itself is about worthless. It's fairly easy for anyone to obtain the cert. Now I'm not saying people who have it are all stupid. But do your research on who is doing your calibration. I have already gathered you read AVS forums by the terms you use. See if someone is doing a "calibration tour" for your plasma series. Some guys specialize in tuning plasmas... that's who I'd have do it... I waited months to get "Mr. Mitsubishi" (Craig M) to do my calibration; the guy knew everything about the design of their units. He was a legend... unfortunately he doesn't do calibrations anymore... I tweak my set myself now.

 

I was able to track down the service menu settings after an ISF calibration. I may give them a try. And there is a well-respected ISF calibrator who tours the country whom I may get in contact with. Apparently, he's also very good at calibrating the surround speakers, too.

Anyway, I do agree somewhat that RPTV gets a raw deal. But people who buy flat panels strictly for the cool factor are probably buying Vizios or Olevias. When I shopped for a display, I looked at everything without prejudice (plasmas, LCDs and RPTVs). The Pioneer plasma looked best to me, and that's what it's really all about.

I sit about 10 feet from my display. When compared the Panasonic 50" 1080p to the Pioneer at that distance, the Pioneer looked better. Probably in a few years, I'll upgrade to a 65" and move the 50" to the bedroom. At that point, I'll get a 1080 display.

And for the record, I said didn't say black level was the only factor in obtaining good shadow detail, just a factor. I understand it there are other factor involved as well.

The thing that irks me is retailers that jack up the brightness of the displays in stores, making it appear as if the brightest displays are the best-looking ones.