Sarlacc

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are already dead formats. Even George Lucas has stated this...and like his movies or not, the dude is on the tech tip.

danny25

so what's next?

Sarlacc

Download HD to your computer to your TV.

Titand19

Hey someone send me a PM when I can get all this at an affordable price or when ll the kinks get worked out at least. I'm not about to drop more loot on a new setup 1 year later.

SiGGy

This entire post is just mostly BS. Do you have any of your own thoughts? I sure asll hope your don't you base your opinons off of stupid incorrect articles like this one! It's written by a whiney idiot, who really doesn't know what he's talking about. I want to go buy him a tampon after reading that.

I could correct just about every comment on that article...

Not to mention for fu*ks sake, test a HD-DVD disc on a 1080p TV :P I'm sick of reading these articles with cheeze nuts doing comparisons on either 720p native TVs, or even non-HD TVs.

SiGGy

!?!?

Your confused and not making any sense. I can't make any sense of the sentences you wrote.

I'm going to guess at what you meant...

Your mistaken... SOME (like 3 models) of the new 1080p TV sdo accept a 1080p signal, the HP for example does. So, yes if you bought a "1080p" TV and it doesn't accept a 1080p signal your hosed if you want to watch a HD-DVD outputting @ 1080p. However a few of the "1080p" TVs do support 1080p as a source signal and most of the 1080p models new this year all accept a native 1080p signal.

However, in all honesty will you notice a picture difference? I doubt most will. Great for the enthusiast, nothing too exciting for 99% of the consumers.

zamo

I will give you four links of some of the current 1080p models:

http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_t...terid=11402915
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_t...terid=11403514
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_t...terid=10087312
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_t...terid=10546221

Check:
Broadcast Format Supported
Broadcast Format Displayed.

From this sample of 4, only 2 do support 1080p inputs.

Lets change "can render useless current 1080p" to "can render useless some of the current 1080p".

Let me know if you still don't understand.

danny25

I was just posting info I thought some might find interesting/useful. A few of the points seemed valid to me, but I admittedly don't know a lot on the subject.

SiGGy

Your still not making a lot of sense... (to me anyway)

What you showed in your list was 2 TV(s) that support a 1080p input signal. And 2 TVs that support 1080i as their highest supported input.

As I have said prior...

Some 1080p TVs will accept a 1080p signal. Some will not, if you have a 1080p TV and the best signal it accepts is 1080i your screwed if you must watch a 1080p signal. However all of the 1080p TVs that do not accept a 1080p signal deinterlace the 1080i into 1080p. So you end up with 1080p in the end anyway, will it look as good as a native 1080p signal? no, but most people won't notice anyway.

And no it won't render a 1080p TV useless, you'll just send the video 1080i to the TV and let it de-interlace it to 1080p. So technically speaking it's kind Nasty...

HD-DVD on a 1080p TV that does NOT support 1080p as a signal source:
1080p - > interlaced to 1080i -> HDMI/DVI -> TV de-interlace to 1080p

HD-DVD on a 1080p TV that does support 1080p as signal source
1080p -> HDMI/DVI -> TV

It's a lot cleaner and way less processing to do 1080p native, but a 1080p TV that doesn't support a 1080p signal source isn't "useless"

Moog-Type-S

evil George is correct. Physical media for home entertainment...(and soon theater entertainment) is dead or dying. Welcome to the digital age.

bkknight369

danny25

I kinda like having the physical media. Filling a hard drive with movies doesn't sound that great. I'm always paranoid about hard drive failure.

Sarlacc

Sigh...Its like it never quite filters through to people.

Just because you buy online doesn't mean you are giving up physical media.

I buy an album on itunes...I burn a copy. There, I now have a hard copy for archive.

Same shit with movies. If you're afraid of media loss create your own physical hard copy.

Keep the user copies on your HTPC, and feed it directly into your TV.

Python2121

Sure, there is always way to get around the issues we have today, but I would rather not have to burn every movie I purchase. I think that the concept of temporarily renting the movie and then going from PC --> TV is far more likely and plausable.
Also, we aren't talking about downloading an 800 meg DIVX here, we are talking about over 15 gigs of data, and we dont have the ability to send 15 gigs everytime someone buys a movie, that would totally saturate our internet backbones. And it is not likely that in the next 7 years our network capacity will expand that much, and thats about the lifetime of these formats anyway. To call it "dead" is plain stupid. Maybe at skywalker ranch, where he has an oc12 or something its plausible, but on DSL and cable modems its not happening.

The only way they could possibly distribute it is through digital cable straight from the CO to your house.

ALSO, it's not like you are losing the ability to play your DVD's with either format.

Sarlacc

Calling it dead is not stupid.

Because two companies have decided to fight and duke it out, I have always felt they were an intermediary format. Because of the big war they are both worthless as is right now.

As technology progresses, so will the internets capability to handle the media.

Python2121

1. so just because there is a format war and because you "feel" its intermediary i guess we should call it "dead." it cant be dead if there’s nothing, not even a working concept of an alternative released. i think what you mean to say is that this format is STUPID....which i have to agree with

2. as technology progresses, so will the requirements of the video. what makes you think that one will wait for the other to catch up?

3. how does the fight between the companies relate to the format not meeting customers needs? its pretty clear that electronic distribution of media is your preferred method of purchasing, but the market doesn't completely agree with you so dont represent your opinion as the markets.

I agree with you on many counts i just think that you are oversimplifying the situation.

Python2121

And hey, it's not like Lucas is infallable. Who can forget episodes 1 and 2.

Does anyone have an HD video setup in their home yet?

Sarlacc

You call it stupid, I call it dead. We both agree on something similar here. I'll answer why I say dead in 3)

2. One NEVER waits for the other. But the other always catches up and all is well. Its been happening with newer format HD cameras and Post Production the past two years. Its annoying at first, but catches up and all is well.

3. The fight causes confusion and misinformation among the otherwise uninformed general public/consumer. Confusion leads to rejections on a larger level. Not to mention with no clear winner it doesn't help determine an industry standard (like for delivering projects to clients) which also leads to rejection. This is why I consider the format dead. Whoever wins...it will be too late to care or make any difference. The pros will be looking to the next big thing, and the general consumers wont care...only videophiles will be left to buy in to it.

making a little more sense from my perspective? I realize these are just my thoughts, and my end up being incorrect...but this is how i feel right now.

Sarlacc

Like I said before...Lucas may have his giant flaws as a writer/director. But he always been on the cusp of new technologies. And influences a lot of it at this point. Such as the large push of major productions to be shot in HD.

danny25

I was just refering to Moog's comment about the physical media being dead or dying, which would include burning your own DVDs in my mind.

Sarlacc

We aren't there yet in terms of archival...hard drives are still too unstable for long term. This will change when solid state gets bigger and cheaper.

SiGGy

To make that statement there would have to be a competing technology.... there isn't.

Show me the $$...

This is another "look at me" George Lucas statement There isn't even another format on the horizon right now. And if there was one created today going through the standards groups/studios takes years! So calling it dead when it hasn't even fully launched yet is really just stupid, he's trying to be an attention whore. Imagine that! lol not George!

This is like me saying "cars are dead!" because in the next 1000 years we will (hopefully) be in flying cars or 100% automated transportation. Geee I'm so smart. You can say "XXXX is dead" for most new technology, because anyone with an IQ over 100 knows it will be replaced by better technology in the future. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to come to these conclusions.

And lucas has made a lot of poor decisions as of lately, this statement is one of them. He likes to play a lot.

And sorry, working in the ISP (internet) industry myself for quite a few years. Most (almost all) internet providers are no where near ready for HD content. They don't have the backbone/backhaul for it. Your 10 years away from that even being a possibility in most markets... Sure you can download pirated scaled down HD movies, but downloading a full quality HD movie would take a long time if the masses were doing it. Timewarner has a HD on-demand channel and it barely has any content. Not to mention chews up and entire 6mhtz 64QAM channel for them. Thats $$ as far as bandwidth goes for TW.

Like it or not HD-DVD/Blu-Ray is the future for the next 5-10 years. If you want to wait it out, go for it! Reality is the consumer level equipment doesn't go through rapid change because the market won't support it. People are already confused enough with HD when the 1080p TVs that are out don't support a 1080p signal, and then the people who think their 720p native TV will display 1080i because it accepts it as an input... And then the "HD" plasmas which are really only EDTV.

I'm glad people like asshat Lucas are out making it even more confusing for consumers ....

Lucas: "HD-DVD is DEAD you fools!"
Consumer: "OMG! what do I buy for my TV to playback HD then Mr. Lucas!?!?"
Lucas: "ahh, ummm, uhhhh, errrr... wait for my new format in 2012! or umm the one that hasn't been thought of yet! Ya that's the ticket!"

IMO... There should be ANSI standard sticker put on consumer/pro grade TVs with standard ratings in a grapgh to show what the set is actually capable of in a big chart so you can see how it ranks.

Albeit in another 3-5 years all the HD sets will be 1080p. It would have saved a lot of confusion to a LOT of confused consumers.

Python2121

"Always" is a pretty strong word for a technology that has only been in the public domain for 12 years

Sarlacc

As I said before. I've been watching it happen for the last two years with HD in production. The cameras came first...THEN the support to actuall extract and edit the footage. And it is STILL happening like that today.

So, call it what you will, but as of right now it is very true.

Sarlacc

Its not a stupid statement. You just dont agree. Time will tell to see who is correct.

I say they are both dead because they cancelling eachother out with this stupid format war, and adding to consumer confusion which essentially makes them just shut down.

Everyone can harp on Lucas for becoming a crappy filmmaker. But I wouldn't say he has made any poor decisions. He is still a brilliant businessman, and has always been on the cutting edge of technology. Even to the point of influencing it. "poor" decisions don't increase your wealth...The man made a statement, I tend to side with it this time, and again time will tell.

And there is little to NOTHING in native 1080P as of right now. Nothing is shit on that format...No post production systems support it yet (We do have cameras now that shoot, but are waiting for the post support...see my reply to python.) And I want to find out if these new discs are being re-transfered at 1080P...or they are using existing HD transfers at 1080i and using programs to make the jump 1080p...because that would really turn me off.

I will sit back and watch this whole debacle happen. and IF there is a clear and decisive winner that is truly accepted by all, then I will look into adopting the format as well.

PS: I'll name a format that was DOA....SVHS. Only took off in the professional, and even then Betacam was still preferred. DVHS was pretty DOA, too, except it was competing against DVD...most people don't even know what DVHS is.

SiGGy

Were past the 1st wave of HD playback man, this is the 2nd. DVHS decks have been out for years now. And many HD movies are available for purchase. And for portable HD recording DVHS is still king, that is until a HD-DVD or Bluray recording unit comes out.

SVHS-> DVD is a horrible comparison. The DVD won because it's convenient and cheaper to produce today.

Wait for what? It's like it's winter and Lucas is predicting the trees to start budding in the Spring... Well no shit... thanks Lucas!

Of course HD-DVD will be replaced one day, but calling it dead now is just hype to get attention to himself. What he's saying is basically true for all new technology, but the time it makes it to market it's dead because they are already working on the replacement. What he's leaving out is how long it takes to get new technology to markey and accepted to the masses.

And the content on the HD-DVD is stored 1080p. So it's a small matter to create hardware to support 1080p playback. Last I read they were re-transfered (film) so it is native 1080p.

Sarlacc

Are we talking about the same thing? Because there is a format called DVHS, which was not HD but better then DVD. The tape formats for HD (Sony's HDCam and Panasonics DVCProHD) are not available for consumer use and pretty much don't get used past the post facilities.

This is a perfect example of what I am saying could be the case. SVHS came out and we all knew it was better then VHS and NO ONE adopted it. No movies came out in SVHS, no one bought the players (except for me.) It was a format that was Dead On Arrival.

Ok, so if it's hype then he just planting the seed into peoples brains about what is next. But I see what he is saying. You can already download movie trailers in HD, people are shooting shorts on HD and releasing them online, Hell, you can get a TRUE HD camera now for under 10g...TRUE HD. We are already starting to take the next steps...

Many movies today are already transfered to HD for archiving...The question is in what format. Making new transfers (assuming its just a 1080i transfer) cost money, and the studios wont spend the money until they see which format is making them money. So, while the discs are 1080P...if they weren't transfered that way, then its just a program effectively making a progressive image prior to the disc's burning. This is the question I am interested in.

Siggy...we both know our shit, and we could both debate with eachother endlessly about this topic. But we have our own strongly formed opinions regarding the matter, and time will tell who made the correct assumption.

I would be all for a HD DVD format...if they only come up with ONE...this whole format war has soured me, and I assume with confuse and sour many others as well. And THAT gives it great potential to fail.

Sarlacc

I take that back DVHS is HD...my apologies. Or rather CAN playback 1080i content..whether movies were mastered in HD on DVHS I am not sure.

Python2121

Dude you are so talking out of your ass and all your examples suck. You compared itunes to the movie industry talking about digital distrabution and how you can just "burn it to a cd." What are you saying? That is NOT the same thing as a CD, That is taking substantially lower quality files and putting them onto your own media. So by your argument HD-DVD is dead and we should replace it with 700 meg divx files which we can then burn, but oh, it's the same exact thing, just a better form of distrabution.

Come on, there are limitations of technology. It hasn't even caught up enough to distribute full quality MUSIC files, let alone movies!

BstonBruin

I just tried reading the first page of this thread. I really need to learn about all this stuff, seems like its in another language.

Python2121

AND the reason they can afford to release HD movie trailers on the net is because most consumers dont even have computers powerful enough to decode it, so theres barely any demand for them. The movies BARELY play on my 1.6ghz centrino d600 with a gig of ram. Not to mention most of the trailers suck, which def keeps everyone but computer geeks away from it.

Sarlacc

How does the example for itunes suck? This is the prime example of where the future is taking us. Its a precursor for whats to come in many ways. It started with music, and now you can get TV shows, music videos, podcasts, etc etc etc...all online. By the time movie industry is ready to start broadcasting over the internet (once they figure all their hang ups with piracy, etc) there will most likely be the newest form of recording technology available. Which is most likely going to be that holographic disc technology, if not something even better. And when movies being their digital distribution I doubt it will start out with HD...most likely SD to get the waters tested and warm..and they WILL fit on a dual layer DVD.

I DO NOT think Digital High Definition DVD's are dead...but I think the formats Toshiba and Sony have come up with already dated, and because of the format war...possibly useless, especially if no one adopts either.

I DO think HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have the potential to be DOA. If one wins, then we have the next generation of media for all the own (assuming the public accepts it, and it doesn't become a phile format ie: laserdisc, SACD, DVHS etc) And if it becomes a phile format...its pretty much dead.

As I said before, even if there is a winner, it is going to be an intermediary format. Just watch. Technology is advancing to quickly to allow for compressed HD on physical media to stay around for too long.

Here is the stand point I am looking at it from...as a DP I have a reel which shows off my best work in order to get jobs. It took YEARS for companies to finally incorporate DVD players to actually have a reel on DVD and not VHS, Beta, etc. Now, most of us have our reels online, its easier. But many clients still want copies for files. There is talk people making HD-DVD reels, and Blue Rays reels, etc. Its all worthless until one format is chosen a winner, and if both fail, then its useless. Same with things being shot on HD right now. There is no way to currently get TRUE HD to clients, home, offices, etc. And it'll still be a pain when both formats arrive, til one is declared winner. BUT if both fail...its moot until the next big technology (holographic or whatever.)

We are not at the point where we will totally get rid of all physical media, itunes rings up a SHITLOAD of business, but we still have CDs for sale in stores. The same will be the case when movies go online. But the future is leading us to the disposal of physical media...and you don't think studios and record companies arent for this? Why wouldn't they be when they can cut out the manufacturing costs of making physical media in favor of squeezing more profit out digital content? It just makes sense. Panasonic has a line of cameras now...one is HD, that records to large solid state cards. No tape. Direct digital info from card to computer to TV. Digital cameras...digital information to card to computer. Where are headed in that direction.

As I've said before, these are MY thoughts. I am not pushing them on anyone. I could be incorrect in how long HD-DVD or Blu-Ray manages to stay around for, but I am far from talking out of my ass.

Sarlacc

All the HD trailers play perfectly on my 1.5ghz powerbook.

Your first sentence makes no sense. They can afford to release the trailers online because most people CAN'T watch them properly??? If there is no demand for it, then why bother? There is flaw to that logic.

And define how the trailers suck? They aren't for movies you want to see? Awww, tough shit. Not everyone has the same tastes as you. And your personal liking, or mine, will not determine the success of a technology.

Moog-Type-S

Anyone who thinks physical media is gonna be around for the next 10 years is really not paying attention to the market and technology.

On demand is the future...bandwith will catch up..and soon.

The studios would love to and are waiting to rid themselves of the cost of physical media, and all the cost associated with it. They will make HUGE profits by not having to mfg. the media, and ship it to market. Instead they can sell it outright or rent it....all by broadband download to PC or home media center.

This is the future. The disc is dead. CD, DVD, HD-DVD, BluRay.

If the concern is Hard drive space...that will be solved in the next few short years...and better than that, solid state memory capacity is growing at a HUGE rate, and will take the place of the hard drive.

The next generation of gaming devices...PS4...Xbox 720...whatever you want to call them will have complete games via download. It saves the software developers huge $$, and software patches are a snap.

The consumer will love this, because they get what they want, when they want it....no waiting in lines at the store, no running out of stock. You get it the day the movie or game is released....on demand.

zamo

^^ But you would also like it cached. What if you have no internet connection? So the mutimedia device should cache at least most used content

But I agree, as well as there is VoIP, we will have multimedia over ip

SiGGy

Not going to happen for HD man, your just assuming/hoping the future. Have you ever worked in the ISP industry? Do you know how much bandwidth it takes to stream HD? How much storage would be needed to hold 500 HD movies?

Downloading a game/movies vs. on-demand gaming/movies are two different things. On-demand means it will start to play instantly, for your game or movie.

Sure I can see future setups where you select the movie you want and it downloads it over time during the day to your DVR. That's totally doable. But 100's of channels of HD on demand are a ways off.

Another part of the problem your missing here is the storage infrastructre it would take to create a on-demand HD system. Way too $$.

Not to mention the cable companies are still using MPEG-2 for HD. You talking 30Mb a second per stream... We're a lot further off than 10 years... only hope immediately is the cable companies switch to a newer codec. And that 30Mb stream is chewing up 6mhtz of their bandwidth per movie. That's insane per viewer.

It's not quite as easy as you'd think. I can see this happening in 10 years, but not to the mass public. Only small areas will have it... it's taken long enough for broadband internet to even make it into all of the suburbs of the US. i.e. people with verizons FIOS service and such. They be be good to go

Solid state memory has been in a state of influx for a LONG time now. It's also WAY too slow still... might be OK for a single user, but not for the masses to access abroad.

Media will always be around man, just because it stored on a HD inside your DVR doesn't mean it's not on media... lol And that's not portable, what do you do when you want to take it to your freinds house to watch? pull your HD out?

I think your just quoting Bill Gates, he made the remarks your making last year when they were bringing the xbox 360 console to market. However he didn't assume HD video was going to be applicable as you are.

I do agree with video games... I can see that working. But for people who collect movies like Shawn S. He'd need a 50TB I-SCSI or SAN in his house... lol Not going to happen

PS

The future is holographic storage with lasers into crystals. For large high speed fast access memory.

Acuraluvr

iTrader: (2)

Moog-Type-S

Mpeg4 will be the way to go. DirecTV is already there...saves bandwith (but with a price). VOD is the future....and much closer than you think.

As far as storage space and cost for the studios....it's a no brainer. The cost of investing in storage for VOD versus the cost of producing DVD's & deliverying DVD's is an excellent investment....and a cost savings one at that.

btw DirecTV is HEAVILY invested in VOD for the future They are having problems with their DVR's caching and tuner issues now, but ...soon to be resolved.

As far as media always being around....sure. As far as physical media that one goes to the store to purchase...that is dying and dead.
HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will be the last hurrah.

TLover

I agree that on-demand will be the future, but not any time soon, and not any time soon enough to say that HD-DVD or Blu-Ray or whatever the next-generation format is not worth buying. Not only do you have a bandwidth and storage problem, but the household penetration rate for high-speed Internet isn't even at 50% yet. Not to mention the fact that the movie industry is going to want some strong encryption. They're not going to want anyone to be able to back a movie up on physical media.

Sarlacc

This is where I have to disagree. I might even be backtracking a little bit.

But even iTunes hasn't killed off the CD yet. And you alway have to consider not everyone will be able to afford to the newest of the new.

BUT I stand by my previous statements, and there will store bought physical in existence we are pushing away from it very quickly.

And so far nothing in this war is getting sorted out...partly because of sony constant delays and tardiness to the battlefield.