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I figure this question is more relevant to this forum instead of the tech forum so I'll make a random thread here.
I bought a Lutron CL (TGCL-153PH-IV) dimmer switch that looks like this to control my new LED in my living room
My issue is that the on/off switch is reversed up position is off and down is on,no clue why. The dimmer works fine, up is brighter, down is dimmer.
It's a single pole switch (though capable of 3-way). IDK if this matters but the switch right next to it and on the same circuit that controls my kitchen lights is in a 3-way setup and it's still working like normal too.
Before I put the dimmer in there was a normal single pole switch there instead and it worked fine.
When I replaced that with the dimmer I wired the dimmer identical to the switch it was replacing.
Any idea what's causing this? I glanced over the manual and didn't see anything.
Is my shit broke and needs to be replaced? Is it because I have too many 3-way switches on a circuit?
I wired it incorrectly. When I installed the dimmer I duplicated the wiring setup of the single pole switch it was replacing. It gave me light but the switch was reversed. I was under the impression that if I ever wired something incorrectly it would just not work instead of working but being backwards. I learned something!
So I read the manual and it mentioned that I was supposed to put one of the wires on the other side of the switch instead of putting both wires on the right side of the switch. That's what fixed it.
The reason I didn't explicitely follow directions is because a few minutes earlier while I was installing my new light fixture that the dimmer would control, I followed the directions and it wouldn't work. The directions said to wire the hot, neutral, and ground all separately with 3 wire nuts. I couldn't get it to work. So I tried wiring the new light fixture how the old light fixture was setup. Which was black was on it's own wire nut but neutral and ground were combined into one wire nut. Once I did that it worked.
Now that I'm thinking about it is that because at the switch the ground isn't connected to anything? If I were to wire the ground at the switch to the bare copper wire and separate the ground from the neutral at the light fixture with it's own wire nut like the directions said would that work? Is there some sort of downside to not wiring the ground of this light fixture at the switch and fixture?
The circuit is completed by the black hot and the white neutral across the load (the light). When you close the switch, the power from the basement panel flows to the switch via the black hot, across the closed switch and continues up the black hot to the light. It crosses the load and returns via the white neutral to the basement panel.
The bare copper ground wire normally carries no current and would not have to be connected for the light to illuminate. The copper ground is an emergency backup meant to channel hazardous current safely back to the basement panel and trip the circuit breaker.
Originally Posted by #1 STUNNA
while I was installing my new light fixture that the dimmer would control, I followed the directions and it wouldn't work. The directions said to wire the hot, neutral, and ground all separately with 3 wire nuts. I couldn't get it to work.
I gather you installed the light while the original switch was still in the wall. (not clear on that). The light did not illuminate because you did not complete the circuit from the black hot across the load and back down the white neutral. Apparently the white neutral circuit was open. (Or maybe something was wrong in your fouled up light switch )
Originally Posted by #1 STUNNA
So I tried wiring the new light fixture how the old light fixture was setup. Which was black was on it's own wire nut but neutral and ground were combined into one wire nut. Once I did that it worked.
If you're describing this accurately, the only thing you changed was the return path of the current. The light did not illuminate when the white neutral was separate, but with the addition of the copper ground, current returned to the basement panel via the ground wire and the light came on. That's bad. That's very, very bad.
Originally Posted by #1 STUNNA
Now that I'm thinking about it is that because at the switch the ground isn't connected to anything?
Which ground? There should be a ground from the light fixture, entering the switch box from above. There should be another ground from the basement panel, entering the switch box from below. Additionally, if the box is metal, there may be a ground jumper in the box, coming off the green ground screw. All of these should be wired together.
If you got no light with the white neutral separate, but got light with ground and neutral wired together, then you have energized ground continuity all the way to the basement panel....and you are in deep shit.
Originally Posted by #1 STUNNA
If I were to wire the ground at the switch to the bare copper wire and separate the ground from the neutral at the light fixture with it's own wire nut like the directions said would that work?
That's how it's supposed to be.
Originally Posted by #1 STUNNA
Is there some sort of downside to not wiring the ground of this light fixture at the switch and fixture?
Not if you prefer sudden and instant death over the slow agony of global warming.
If you got no light with the white neutral separate, but got light with ground and neutral wired together, then you have energized ground continuity all the way to the basement panel....and you are in deep shit.
I was typing a similar response but ipad crashed and lost it.
Is this a very old house that has or had 2 prong outlets (no ground plug)?
It sure sounds like either the house is wired with 2 wire or someone missed connecting the ground wire somewhere down the line.
Either way I would get an electrician in ASAP. house fires are no fun.
...... Which was black was on it's own wire nut but neutral and ground were combined into one wire nut. Once I did that it worked.
Originally Posted by XLR8R
If you're describing this accurately, the only thing you changed was the return path of the current. The light did not illuminate when the white neutral was separate, but with the addition of the copper ground, current returned to the basement panel via the ground wire and the light came on. That's bad. That's very, very bad.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Originally Posted by XLR8R
If you got no light with the white neutral separate, but got light with ground and neutral wired together, then you have energized ground continuity all the way to the basement panel....and you are in deep shit.
That's how I read/understood it too.
Sounds like that is what he has.
So looking at these pics I notice that the nuetral at the switch isn't connected to anything just a wire nut. That doesn't look right. I think that's my problem, once I get that connected correctly at the switch and make the change at the fixture it should work, right?
I swear I didn't touch the neutral it was like that probably for years.
Also the ground isn't connected to anything at the switch either...
The 3 ground wires just seem to connect to each other and that's it, neither switches use it.
Ok I've been reading my electrical wiring for dummies book. Super helpful. Looks like in regards to the neutral wire the switch is wired correctly except for the ground cable on the switches which I'll fix.
So my issue is that for some reason there's something wrong with my neutral wire and the circuit is open because of it. So I'm checking the neutral wire at other devices on the circuit.
So looking at these pics I notice that the nuetral at the switch isn't connected to anything just a wire nut. That doesn't look right. I think that's my problem, once I get that connected correctly at the switch and make the change at the fixture it should work, right?
I swear I didn't touch the neutral it was like that probably for years.
Also the ground isn't connected to anything at the switch either...
The 3 ground wires just seem to connect to each other and that's it, neither switches use it.
In the switch box, the neutrals should all be wired together and capped with a wire nut, and all the grounds should be connected together with a crimp ring. Neither of those bundles should be connected to anything else.
So if thats what it looks like(hard to tell in the pic) then it's correct.
That ground wire at the light junction box should definitely not be in the same wire nut as the neutral.
Ok I've been reading my electrical wiring for dummies book. Super helpful. Looks like in regards to the neutral wire the switch is wired correctly except for the ground cable on the switches which I'll fix.
So my issue is that for some reason there's something wrong with my neutral wire and the circuit is open because of it. So I'm checking the neutral wire at other devices on the circuit.
Good idea
I would also redo that whole switch box to clean it up. Get rid of all the electrical tape, and make sure the wire nuts are covering the whole connection with no bare wire sticking out of the wire nut.
1. The black hot on the left side of the switch looks correct. It powers the new dimmer and goes on to power something else down-line.
2. The black hot on the right side is hooked backwards around the screw. The hook should be clockwise so that tightening the screw acts to pull the wire in tighter.
3. I agree with SiQ that the white neutral must not be exposed. Except I would crank that nut down tight and wrap it in electrical tape. Stretch the electrical tape a bit and wrap it clockwise, covering the nut and down over the wire.
4. Ground the switch as SiQ says. Without the ground to trip the breaker, the metal body of the switch could become energized by a worn hot wire. When you touch it, you will complete the circuit to ground.
5. The light fixture must be wired with independent hot/neutral/ground.
Originally Posted by #1 STUNNA
So I'm checking the neutral wire at other devices on the circuit.
Disconnect the neutral from the light to the switch wire nut and check it for continuity. If needed, use extensions to reach with your multi-meter. If other fixtures on that neutral work, then you have continuity to the basement.
However, if you have neutral and ground tied together at other fixtures, it might be time to call an electrician.
Okay, don't think anyone addressed the issues on the fixture side. First off, get that ground and neutral out of the same wire nut! Second, the bare copper wire from the fixture needs to be connected to the green ground screw on the mounting plate along with the ground wire in the house wiring.
The switch box needs some cleaning too, but I've been told that I'm overly anal about such things.
My landlord who's a retired electrician stopped by today and took a look at it. So I recored some of our convo, the wire he's talking about in the beginning is the neutral wire
So he confirmed you have an open neutral somewhere, which you already knew. You were going to check for it, did you find it?
Originally Posted by #1 STUNNA
So my issue is that for some reason there's something wrong with my neutral wire and the circuit is open because of it. So I'm checking the neutral wire at other devices on the circuit.
"It's something I don't worry about...you'd have to be on the floor barefooted. It'd shock you then."
Yeah, that's right.
The National Electric Code, Chapter 2, Section A(1) clearly states:
"Light fixtures must only be grounded if they are to be touched by barefoot people standing in a water bucket on a metal ladder while flying a kite in a thunderstorm."
After all, it's only electricity. Don't be a pussy. You should check out his theory. Hold the energized hot wire while standing in a variety of footwear: flip-flops, ice skates and stilettos. Let us know if his barefoot theory holds up.
power outlet is on the same circuit, luckily it is never used, ever. As you can tell by how dirty it is near it, it's hidden behind a couch.
Landlord was talking to me about a possible junction box in the attic. I think up there a wire got crossed. I sent him these pics and now he wants to come over and work on it now but I gots to go to work, so another day. Though this sounds like a fun problem to solve so I look forward to fixing it with his help (or more like him fixing it with my help)
Glad I bought one of those voltage detectors months back, been pretty helpful and was only a couple bucks.
I bought one of those last night and it says my hot and ground are swapped. It's happening at at least 3 points on the circuit so I'm pretty sure it's swiched some where all these wires combine. Gonna work on it tomorrow
Ended up having to run another neutral wire back to the home run. Good times crawling through the attic. After that we rewired the 3 way switches for the kitchen light and everything is now working properly.
Thanks xlr8r and A siq tl for the help. Apparently this circuit had been wired incorrectly for 30 years and I wouldn't have caught it if you guys did not say anything.
In this pic there should be a third white wire. One of those white wires was actually supposed to used in the 3 way switch for the kitchen and in that role it doesn't act as a neutral but as another hot (I think, white wire with black tape on it) which is why we had about 20v on the neutral wire. So we put one of those neutral wires with the 3 way switch and took the new neutral we ran and wired it with the neutral that went to the other light and elsewhere.
3 way switches are a bitch. Determining which one is the traveler after you've disconnected everything can be a real pita. Glad you got it all worked out though! Landlords like that are the best. We got a month's free rent for hanging 3 sheets of drywall ceiling in the garage after the hurricanes. And all it cost us was about $200 in materials and beer. And most of that was beer!
Thanks xlr8r and A siq tl for the help. Apparently this circuit had been wired incorrectly for 30 years and I wouldn't have caught it if you guys did not say anything.
Your wiring is now current. In short, that's watt matters.
I was a full-time electrician for a few years before I started computer work. I've been doing side work for about twelve years now, mostly residential.
11-05-2014, 09:32 PM
Random Electrical Talk
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