seaeyes

But what if a 57k Aucra has 430hp when a 57k S5 only has 330hp?

How much is an Audi with 400+ hp?

boe_d

No, I haven't - first post on this thread.

I can see you have excellent reading skills so I'm going to move a little on the price of that Civic - how does $42,000 sound? Better?

mylove4cars

Example: Caddy CTS-Vsport TT RWD 440 Hp fully optioned $73,000.00 - Well we all know GM is sooooo much better.

mylove4cars

Much better

mylove4cars

Exactly; I mentioned this before, sometimes I wonder if this is a Acura forum.

The TLX is not even on the market, no one knows the features & Specs, nothing else than assumptions and the TLX is already doomed as a dead born child.

BEAR-AvHistory

Your kidding right? Do you really want to compare the TLX to one of the fastest 4 door sedans in the world around the 'Ring? At our local 4.1 mile VIR (Virginia International Raceway) the Caddy V sedan out laps the Caddy V coupe, Audi R8, BMW M6, MB CLS63-AMG, BMW M3 & Lexus IS F.

Most all of which cost more than the $66K it would cost to buy a current V sedan.

mylove4cars

Kevin,
Caddy CTS-Vsport not CTS-V - The Vsport is a Twin Turbo V6 the CTS-V 8 Cyl has a Supercharger. Different animals to say the least.

Btw. I cant compare what doesn't exist (suggestion TLX Twin Turbo), do you really believe that Acura/Honda is not capable doing that. Ferrari and the likes underestimated Honda/McLaren in the 1980's losing 4 Formula 1 World Championships.

Tonyware

Maybe the double clutch 9 gear on a 2.4l engine is a hint for something big, HP-wise? What good is a double clutch on a 200hp car? So... maybe its a lot more than that. How much? Well, it can't be over the RLX golf cart 377hp and it can't be lower than your average J engine's ~290hp. I think the forum will be on fire when we find out in a couple of weeks what kind of a monster engine they put in the 4 banger TLX. My guess? A turbo 310hp with 285ft/lb torque for $50k. Maybe the evolution of the RDX K23A1 engine?

BEAR-AvHistory

But the Caddy V is only 66K$ with its 556hp supercharged engine so I just saved you $7K & got you a world class sports sedan in the bargain. Great bang for the buck as some like to say.

Thing is the premium cars do not sell at X dollars per horsepower. The E Class with 302hp can go out the door over $75K & the BMW 740 with 315hp can go out the door at over $93K. They sell image & amenities.

Acura has no luxury image because they chose from get to be the value alternative, smart luxury, bang for the buck entry. Bang for the buck & luxury are at the opposite ends of the perception scale.

The RLX is trying to play in the upscale market, how’s that working out for Acura?

You keep talking about this being an Acura site like everyone is supposed to put their brains in neutral & clap every time Acura is mentioned. Will not fly with me & I expect any number of others. We have all had or have TL’s so maybe a dose of critical thinking from that perspective will be to everybody's benefit.

If they can't sell the RLX for $50K how could they ever hope to sell the TLX at $57?

mylove4cars

In case of confusion: Like it states in my opening post.
TLX SH-AWD V6 for 57,000 - Twin Turbo (V6 Twin Turbo)

Btw. This is a clarification for the Crack-Heads and the likes.

mylove4cars

Kevin, The Acura dealership where I purchased my TL has a CTS-V with 7200 miles for sale asking price 44,000 going for 39,750 - Look at Autotrader lots of CTS-V's for sale.

Why do you think Caddy's new hot toy is a V6 Twin Turbo

That's why Acura needs to build image, recognition etc.

No perfect car on the market today, no matter which brand.

Like I stated from the start TLX V6 Twin Turbo (Not talking about RLX)

BEAR-AvHistory

Any auto maker can build high power engines. You can drive a 420hp all alloy with forged internals Coyote powered Mustang off the lot for $33K MSRP but no one would pay $57K for one just because it has 420hp.

So again its not about how much power the TLX has, its about how the car is perceived by the buying public. So again, if they can’t sell a $50K RLX how do you propose to sell $57K TLX’s.

Acura has never demonstrated any inclination to produce high horsepower cars. The last type S performance model was to the fans a big hit. Honda added 300cc to the base engine. 18ci, my lawn tractor has more displacement than that.

My current 3.0 is generating 410whp that would be 471hp at the crank. The new Honda 3.5 can surely make more power so what did they do for the 3.5 in the performance RLX? Nothing, just tacked on some electric motors for extra power.

TL Luver

iTrader: (2)

THERE'S AN F'N KIA COMING OUT FOR $60k+?

Now why wouldnt someone buy the TL made for the people (suppose)

i give them an credit for the making an effort to give us a 4G with AWD 6 M/T...


The people who care about no tailpipes & paint color options; thoe are the first innovators

mylove4cars

Not any auto maker has the credentials winning 4 Formula 1 World Championships.

Pretty sure Acura has the financials to market a high-end TLX and acquire market share.

Not talking about RLX - Assuming a TLX V6 Twin Turbo with SH-AWD like my opening post states. (Not marketable for 57K - If you say so sir.

Unfortunately we might never find out.

TL Luver

iTrader: (2)

& What other choice/model car do they have to make go fast?...

TL?...

BEAR-AvHistory

Never looked at the number of world championships so congrats to Honda.

AFAIK In World Champion Grand Prix racing Honda has won 72 GP races & is #5 in total wins. Ferrari is #1 with 222 wins & Ford is #2 with 176 wins

You still can't explain why a high end TLX will sell in that price range. So far they have two fails going into your plan. They tried edgy styling & also raised prices with the 4G & lost half their sales.

BTW: I know you are talking about the TLX. Unfortunately for the $57K plan Acura has this Flagship thing called a RLX & its not a good plan to upstage your flagship with a mid level car.

winstrolvtec

The TLX is going top out around $50k, the new Infiniti Q50 does that, and all the other major competitors actually price an upwards of $10k more, exception here and there. Considering where the current model is priced, the market, all the new stuff Acura is finally adding, etc, $50k is warranted.

No one has to like it or buy it or even agree but look, one might like anything in life and be willing to put any price on it but we tend to have some basis in doing so, we appraise cars, houses, etc, etc, there are reference points, things we can use to make the subjective a bit more objective even if still largely subjective nontheless and that basis here unmistakably says, Acura can charge that.

Considering what the hypothetical twin turbo sport distinct model above the SH advance would bring, $57k is not anywhere near unreasonable, look at what the market and other brands command for the sport distinct version in that range. Very hypocritical for anyone to suggest why one buy the Acura and not say the same for all of them to some extent, if not the exact same thing. How it will go over is another discussion but with some actual real world basis, that price is not unwarranted. Price is not the only thing to dictate the sales.

The average selling price for the TLX will likely be unchanged, $40k or so minus discounts, but that has little to do with a hypothetical low selling sport variation. Others have them, they don't sell in crazy numbers and so what?

How is the same exact concept applied to many brands, good for one and bad for the other? I think I know, because it's not the brand "I" like, or they don't offer anything "I" want, well personally there are brands I don't like but I don't go out of my way to take away from them what any other impartial person would just because of my "feelings" or to justify them.

This is what we tend to hear, that they don't offer something like the model described here and that's why they have middle tier status, also because no halo effect, higher end models or sport trims, etc, etc, then hypothetically, what happens if they do offer it and then all of a sudden it's too much money, they're crazy, doesn't sell well, no one wants it, not working, etc, etc. I hope some would at least acknowledge that, this is a double standard by any measure, and that they have placed Acura in a position to fail in their minds no matter what.

Anyway, I'm curious, how does Acura not have any real luxury image? Who decides that? I would agree with more or less image but statements like that are absurd but to be fair it was probably just a slight exaggeration to get a point across. However, I would imagine those who bought Acuras ahead of Infiniti, Audi and Caddy, as does usually happen, would disagree.

Also hear that on the one end, Acura doesn't have the luxury image, on the other, they really just cater to image seeking Honda buyers, I really get very confused sometimes, which one is it?

No doubt it's image is affected by it's value position but it's a reach to say it has none in the luxury scene or that it doesn't offer amenities as well and then to say others do and so that's why their image and what they charge is ok is very contradictory.

I can say the same for BMW relative to Porsche for example and even beyond that, so now all of a sudden Mercedes for example, is the "Acura" with respect to Maserati for example but it's honestly a silly and IMO an insecure thing to suggest among defined luxury brands. Anyone can take this position about any brand, but don't you think we need a bit more criteria, especially objective to conclude these kinds of things?

For example, the RLX is a car that does not meet the criteria of what the market and specifically the segment wants, which is not a full size sedan and it's not FWD but they do also want the more associated luxury image which I agree is not necessarily the Acura but none of that makes it any less luxurious vs it's rivals.

It has it's advantages too, it's short sighted to stop at the badge and that applies beyond Acura relative to so called tier 1's too because there are tiers above that using the same very definitions that supposedly establish what is the best of the best. Unless of course we only base luxury on, I guess the opposite of value, in overspending and buying into our own BS that people usually try to sell to others as opposed to being humble and modest about the fact that they are just cars, they do not actually define are very being or justify our existence.

One thing that is improving is the acceptance that more and more are coming around to the fact that they are really paying for image. Varies depending on the reason(s) for one's purchase naturally, but nontheless it's the very same image you can get going to an Acura and the same amenities many mainstream makes even offer now so does that really make any brand really better or worse with regards to image on it's own or is that something we like to create for whatever reasons?

TL Luver

iTrader: (2)

https://acurazine.com/forums/5g-tlx-2015-2020-415/pricing-tlx-advance-sh-awd-found-907000/

George Knighton

Never mind all that: I hope they are still in business in five years.

The recall and compensation scheme is getting way out of hand, with a full stop sale order against their best selling cars.

Add to that the fact that the US Attorney is beginning an investigation into what appears to be a 10-year long running conspiracy not to reveal the extent and nature of a problem, and we're looking at a huge problem for GM.

George Knighton

I agree with your opening statement and I agree with most of what you've said following.

It has always been the bane of Acura's existence that we are all former Honda owners, and that they have a hard time attracting buyers from outside because they design cars for us and not for people who usually buy Audi and Mercedes.

Acura likes to be "reasonable" and "logical." Logical performance. Reasonable luxury.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

OP probably needs to be more specific in the first post.

Is it a $57k TLX SH-AWD twin turbo with 350hp that is as well equipped as a base TLX? Or is it a $57k TLX SH-AWD twin turbo with over 400hp and equipped with the Advance package, sporty appearance package, and different suspension tuning?

If it's the latter, then I think $57k would be quite nice.

mylove4cars

iforyou,
This would be the top dog. TLX V6 Twin Turbo with SH-AWD like my opening post states. I believe around 400HP and 400 Lb-Ft. Torque for a V6 Twin Turbo would not be excessive.

As part of the package, sporty appearance, and different suspension tuning would be possible IMHO. All of this are assumptions.

BEAR-AvHistory

Average TL selling price last year was $36K. The image thing answer is both. Its a luxury to a typical Honda economy car buyer but not a luxury to a typical luxury car buyer.

You might not agree with this but in 2013 the TL sold 23,000 cars, MB sold 88,000 C-class + $3000 over the typical TL price, Audi sold 42,000 A4 & BMW sold 119,000 3 series at $7000 over the typical TL price.

The marketplace is pretty clear, no hypotheticals, at defining what people will pay for a TL compared to the entry level luxury brand cars. Additionally the RLX selling at less than 6000 cars a year strongly suggests that Acura is not being accepted in the $50K+ arena.

I know you dislike me pulling out sales numbers but selling cars is what auto manufactures do & is how the industry as a whole measures itself.

Acura will have its single line high end car the NSX. That will not translate into high end TL sales anymore that the Corvette ZR1 translates to a $57K Chevy sedan or a GT-R into a $57K Maxima.

Beside if the apparent changes from the very nice prototype to the last spy shots are valid Acura will have already once again screwed the pooch.

tlorencz

iTrader: (1)

I have to admit the new TLX looks snazzy. However without any reviews of the vehicle by Car and Driver or Motor Trend, we really don't know what kind of vehicle we are dealing with. I myself will wait to pass judgement until I have a chance to test drive the vehichle, read numerous reviews and do an objective compariosn with its competitors. Even then I doubt I would buy it in the first model year, as I have always condsidered that a no no until they get the bugs worked out and have a chance to tweek it a bit. Besides, you'll probably be able to get the vehicle for $15k less as a 1 year old CPO.

boe_d

Not if you are using your sedan to tow a Princess Cruiseline ship. I believe acceleration is important but not measure by HP. Just curious what you do that you need 400HP on your sedan?

TL Luver

iTrader: (2)

Why Not?!... especially if you're going to pay top dollar....


but I don't know if ny noticed that acura decided to wait till the very end to release the special edition fast 4G...

kinda goes to show they'll definitely be better options later...

Vipula AD

I agree with OP. TLX-R or –S or –Si or –GT, or what ever theywant to call it. Just like Lexus hastheir “F” versions, BMW their M versions, Mercedes AMG, Audi S/RS and even Chryslerhas their RT and Hemi version, but Honda/Acura has got nothing comparable for us. Thelittle (well not so little these days) Civic Si is nice, but it is no M3 (I amnot a BMW fan by the way, sorry).

I am new here so I don’t believemy opinion is worth any more than $0.02. Plus this is my first post even though I have been reading your postsfor almost 2 years. However I am a TL owner. I have a 2012, BWP, TL, SH-AWD, TechAuto (yes auto, to stop the wife from nagging about the stick shifts I had had allthis time), which I bought new in 2012. I do love the car and I have so far put 15K (veryfun) miles in it. I bought the car fortwo reasons; Honda/Acura reliability and the SH-AWD. I knew going in that the car was under powered(or too heavy for the power it has). ButI like the looks of the car (I know I am in the minority) and the SH system issecond to none. I wish it had 4-500lbsless weight or 50-60lb-ft of extra torque. And what better way to get moreof that by putting a turbo (or two) in it especially when you cannot shed 500lbof weight from a car for $10K. Also,there is no better car for Acura to bring in to the leagues of the Ms, AMGs etcthan the TLX. Acura should look at thislike BMW and Mercedes; you have the low end economy luxury car, the top endluxury car with all the bells and whistles but without the top performance andthen you have the top performance model offered in a limited quantity. Not every one will buy or can afford an M3but it was there for those that want to buy and for all BMW 3 series owners tobrag or to wish they had it or just even to talk about. So a 400hp limited production TLX wouldchange the way people look at Acura.

A number of people that I knowand work with have cars like the 328, 335, 535 or C series but they are not M3s,M5s or C55 AMGs. However a part of theirdecision for buying those cars was because they associated their purchase withthe top of the line performance offering. In other words, I guess you could say, theyhave some bragging rights/excuses or an image. It is mostly a guy thing I think (sorry gals).

I usually keep my cars for 7or more years, so I have a few years before I am ready for something new. However, If Acura brings out something like whatthe OP indicated; I will shed a few years from my time table to get one. And if it came in a station wagon; now thatwould be a perfect ride for me (even my wife would approve that one).

Just my $0.02,

Vip.

George Knighton

Maybe that's 23,000 former Honda owners who bought a TL instead of an Audi, eh?

More and more, I believe that Acuras are designed for Honda owners, to keep them moving to something else.

Personally, I went from 1989 Civic DX Hatch --> 1992 Civic Si --> 1998 Integra GS-R --> '00 ITR #110 --> 2006 Accord HFP Coupe --> 2010 TL 6-6 SH-AWD --> 5G RLX Advance.

And I could very well see myself going in very short time to a TLX 9 speed V6 SH-AWD, or to the RLX Hybrid around December. Or even...an NSX.

:-)

I think they're building cars for us more than they're building cars to compare against Audi, Mercedes or Cadillac.

BEAR-AvHistory

I would tend to agree its the next step up from the Accord & is a perfectly logical jump. Be interesting to see where the 3G buyers went since there were about 60,000 of them a year.

George Knighton

LOL.... From what I've seen people saying, they're still driving them! :-)

mylove4cars

To Each His Own

tlorencz

iTrader: (1)

Personally I'm a 3G owner who decidely skipped the 4G due to personal preference. I'll definitely take a look at the 5G. However I will compare it to the competition and go for the best "value". Since I cannot afford to buy "new" I'll look for a CPO with low mileage (less than 20k) for a best value among all in its class. When I bought the 3G, I compared it with the g35. I found the 3G to offer much more in the way of the driving experience and cockpit. However that may be changing with the Eau rouge. I will wait and see.

KeithL

My guess is they all have tested the car and can not disclose until after release.

tlorencz

iTrader: (1)

Having had the opportunity to drive the latest gen TSX and TL, I think Acura is wise in merging them into the TLX. My impression of the current TL is that is has no where to go. After the 3G, the TL got bigger and heavier. Certainly more features, but I didn't find it appealing from a sports sedan standpoint. I think the TLX gives Acura the ability to "unwind" from the current design course of the TL and merge it with the more nimble TSX. I would never buy a 4G TL but I would buy a souled up TSX and I think Acura may be shooting for that with the TLX.

holografique

Ha! Like George said, probably a high percentage are still driving their 3G's. Part of the downside of making such an awesome reliable vehicle. I still see 3G's driving around just as much as I see M's, B's and A's.

Problem is the 4G design disaster wasn't compelling enough to make 3G TL owners want or "desire" to make a jump to the next thing. So I believe a lot of them have held out, while a smaller percentage jumped ship. But without data, we'll never really know. All I know is that's exactly how it played out for me and my 3G. I held out all the way till 2013, and if it wasn't for the RLX, I would still likely be driving my 3G right now. And yes, I'm one of those who loves the RLX, despite all the hate fest around here about them.

I still believe what made the 3G TL such a success is that Acura hit the perfect balance between catering to the enthusiast and to the mass "lemming" drivers. bang for the buck, step up in luxury, reliability and enough "flare" to attract the enthusiasts. And it's that formula that they need to bring back.

KeithL

I may be in the minority, but having owned a 4G I liked the size. At first I thought it was too big, but honestly going from 3G to 4G then to the M37S and now my A6 I like a bigger car. I am past the point in life where I want to keep throwing the car into turns. I want it to handle and my 4G AWD TL handled probably better than my M37S and A6 so bigger does not have to give up handling. It was not nimble, but it it was quick enough. I know that I am likely the RLX demo, but if they would have styled it better I might have been interested. I really wanted to,like the RLX because I was interested in the RLX Advance, but it just kept feeling like it was the 4G for me again where I bought an Avura because I am an Acura fan, but after 18 months hated looking at the beak and Palladium Metallic.

Rocketsfan

Well, I went to work today and then stopped off at the gas station to pump gas on the way back... after that I pretty much just came home...


Seriously though, I did think about going to a Q50, ATS, or an IS, but after sitting back and watching the release of each and due to various reasons for each, I've decided to sit and wait to see what the TLX has to offer.

Tonyware

With the material and alloy metals available and the manufacturing techniques, I would say turbocharged 500hp is possible out of a J35 with totally different internals. They'll probably call it the J35M0N5T3R

BEAR-AvHistory

I drove mine for 6 years, saw the 4G & went to the dark side. I would believe a lot of the original 60,000 a year did the same thing.

winstrolvtec

The numbers are not hypothetical, I agree, what they represent or are interpreted to mean might be, however. If you're assuming all other things are equal, or close enough, and only equating brand name to price = sales and not taking anything else or anything relative to very varying products, and the market reaction to them, into consideration that would be hypothetical.

If brands only sold boxes on wheels with badges, I think that premise would make sense and as much as many people particularly in this area of the market may flock to particular brand A or B and don't really see past those things, or only see them first anyway, because of image, perception and portrayal, and what not, there are still cars attached to them with very different components and characteristics, etc.

You can clearly see this by example of 3G to 4G. Very different outcomes as we know and the average selling price is in line with what it was then considering inflation, discounts, interest rates, and the higher priced SH variants. So the difference must be attributed to so much more than price and badge. Now I'm not discrediting the idea in total, it just doesn't hold up as well outside of the vacuum you have created for it or around it. To a smaller degree or very vague one but one that is hard to put a finger on anyway.

It's one example but the MDX seems to do fine with an average selling point of at or around $50k despite being an Acura. My guess is that it is probably Acura's single best model at delivering either exactly or much of what that market wants or even going as far as defining what that is or should be. It's purpose is clear and concise, mid size luxury SUV and I don't think many put it on a different luxury level than comparable competitor even those coming form higher regarded luxury brands.

The RLX just doesn't fit, FWD full size aimed at mid size mostly RWD made up market. While I commend Acura for cleaning up the segment variation and putting some distance between their sedans, they are not clean and concise enough, with regards to where and how others compete or even where they want to compete and so it often gets negative attention, not necessarily in of itself but because of how it relates to others there. The ILX has the same problem, while the TL suffers from that a bit but less because there is a large FWD luxury sedan market, so it appears it has had it's own problems to go with that.

Still there is something to that $50k mark and Acura in general but I draw a line with it, it appears at any chance, you are at the same time suggesting that Acura has a hard time at mid $30k's and a hard time at $50k's and therefore the $40k's but that can go on forever if we pick and chose what supports that and then suggest that they shouldn't do it but how are they supposed to cross that hurdle if they don't keep at it?

And I still think it's a mostly a matter of perspective, they are not a top 3 selling luxury brand but whatever the next best thing is, they're right there so it's not as if they are not a heavily accepted luxury brand in general. The truth and also non hypothetical reality of the top 3 is that they tend to have a lot more success in the compact sport segment and the mid size executive or mid level segment, with exception to Lexus whose RX and ES carry the brand that much higher.

All the other models and variations are not all that worthwhile in terms of sales, of course just like we should maybe consider for some Acura models as well, there may not really be a mass market for them or no particular one has the larger slice or slices. Now, notice what Acura has for those segments specifically and how they are different. Coincidence? As it relates to solidifying mass market sales, there is a trend in getting lower priced and reaching down market as well as getting more de-contented among many luxury brands, while Acura is trying to push up almost across the board.

The NSX won't translate to high end TL sales but it, and another even higher end TL as described here, will translate to lower and mid sales of all models to varying degrees and that's pretty much sums up the largest difference of sales and luxury image differences between Acura and other brands IMO.

A model like the one being discussed here would be welcome because they do need to do something to shake up the brand among the sedans, no matter what it means for the RLX because not only did they stump brand growth to cater to the RL before and paid for it, others don't have a problem with a lower model's pricing exceeding the next one up. Doesn't matter, as we see, people buy it how they like it, different cars anyway. You don't automatically go for a 5 because you shopped a mid to high 3, for example.