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If the TLX dominates the Q50, is Acura above Infiniti again?
I mean if you think about it, the G Sedans was their biggest trump car from 2009-2013. In my opinion Acuras make the better Cross Over/SUVS(opinion backed by sales figures and reviews). Nobody cares about Infiniti above 50,000 USD anyways.So it's basically the 33k-43k G/Q Range and the SUV Segments.
^^ I don't know- I don't really consider one 'luxury brand' to be over another (well, in the Infiniti vs Lexus vs. Acura war). Buy what you like and what appeals to YOU. How the car lines up in the grand scheme vs other brands is pretty irrelevant to me (in other words, if Hyundai for example makes a great car, even better than Infiniti, Lexus, Acura, etc., that's where my $$$ will go). Vote with your dollars. Discussing / fighting about what's a better car makes no sense.
^^ I don't know- I don't really consider one 'luxury brand' to be over another (well, in the Infiniti vs Lexus vs. Acura war). Buy what you like and what appeals to YOU. How the car lines up in the grand scheme vs other brands is pretty irrelevant to me (in other words, if Hyundai for example makes a great car, even better than Infiniti, Lexus, Acura, etc., that's where my $$$ will go). Vote with your dollars. Discussing / fighting about what's a better car makes no sense.
I agree! It's not about the badge. For me it's about reliability and what I LIKE, i was considering the new Azera but the TL is more fun to drive.
Then the Ford F150 owns the whole Acura brand. About 2 months of F-150 sales = a full year of all Acura products combined.
What is the point you're trying to make with that statement? I'm talking about direct competitors not a totally different segment, if overall sales numbers don't put them above Infiniti what does?
What is the point you're trying to make with that statement? I'm talking about direct competitors not a totally different segment, if overall sales numbers don't put them above Infiniti what does?
I think hissing as is mine, is sales is only one measurement. If you are looking at position by sales in a segment then your statement makes sense, but then winning sales race for one year does not make a brand.
BTW price wise the F-150 goes from $26K to $52K & does cover the whole Acura brand except for possibly the top end RLX. Kick in the Super Duty & you are into the high $60K range.
Point is Acura might sell more cars than Infinity or Audi but it does not have the same presence in the market place as they do. Both brands have built an identity as something special & some people still say "what's an Acura?"
Despite the loyal fan base here, which if you look at it is very small compared to other sites, too many others think of it as a top end Honda. Its a good car but Honda/Acura really screwed up big time in marketing the product line.
I remember when my TL had Honda ID etchings on its windows & when I installed factory running boards on my daughters Pilot half the parts bags were stamped Acura
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-23-2014 at 09:22 AM.
BTW price wise the F-150 goes from $26K to $52K & does cover the whole Acura brand except for possibly the top end RLX. Kick in the Super Duty & you are into the high $60K range.
Point is Acura might sell more cars than Infinity or Audi but it does not have the same presence in the market place as they do. Both brands have built an identity as something special & some people still say "what's an Acura?"
Despite the loyal fan base here, which if you look at it is very small compared to other sites, too many others think of it as a top end Honda. Its a good car but Honda/Acura really screwed up big time in marketing the product line.
I remember when my TL had Honda ID etchings on its windows & when I installed factory running boards on my daughters Pilot half the parts bags were stamped Acura
I get what you're saying, I think Acura as a brand is on the up tick now with our current line up but honestly our marketing isnt there yet hopefully they are improving on that. We've been making BMW and Mercedes like commercials with abstract themes showing the car for 2 seconds, when we should have commercials like Ford or Mazda jam packed with features showing the value of Acura. The best advertisement Acura gets is through third-parties like consumer reports and Edmunds .com I think Acura was lost but has now found its identity, for a company that has horrible marketing and presence they're doing pretty good once they fix that, release the tlx, improve the engines in the ilx, release the nsx, a couple coupes and a hardtop convertible they'll be fine lol
I remember when my TL had Honda ID etchings on its windows & when I installed factory running boards on my daughters Pilot half the parts bags were stamped Acura
Some Infitini parts have Nissan etchings, Audi have WV, Lexus have Toyota
By the way, all the part packaging for Lexus i have seen, had Toyota name on it.
All Acura parts i have received had Honda markings....
Some Infitini parts have Nissan etchings, Audi have WV, Lexus have Toyota
By the way, all the part packaging for Lexus i have seen, had Toyota name on it.
All Acura parts i have received had Honda markings....
Agree on some of the labling, but outside of the overlap rebadged cars like the ES the rest of those lines not all built on an economy car platform like the US Accord/TLX&RLX. The other companies have already built their brand ID’s & images well before mergers so Audi for instance has been a premium car company going back into the 1920’s even though its now owned by VW.
Cadillac “V” series runs Chevy small block engines in its cars but they are labeled GM & Caddy has been GM’s premier division since GM was formed so nobody really cares. Likewise people know Lexus is division of the parent Toyota Corporation but they also know that the big Lexus is a luxury car & not a stretched Camry or Avalon.
The two main players MB/BMW have built their brands from the top down & are introducing more cars into the Acura bread & butter price range & they carry the Corporate logos not the model line ID's.
Meanwhile Honda is trying to build from the bottom up. Honda is basically a two platform company trying to leverage its one big car Accord platform across three product lines Accord, TLX & RLX. Why constantly remind people of this when they are going to spend $40-60K on a car.
Infinity has a similar image issue & their “M” car above the entry level G/Q has never sold well with sales a bit over 1000 a month when it first came out down to 500 or so now.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-23-2014 at 01:12 PM.
I see the spin the sales number game still exists in full force around here. To some it would seem that you can have it both ways or have your cake and eat it too even though in reality that's hardly ever the case, but as long as it's convenient and as long as it's a somewhat negative context associated with the Acura brand, why not?
Ironic that when they don't sell as much it's because they are not a tier 1 or a real luxury player, image issues, advertising, etc, but when they sell more than some others instead, all of a sudden that's meaningless and then the sales magically don't matter. I don't care how anyone chooses to cut it but cut it one way, so if it works against it has to work for and vice versa.
I think the whole parts and platform notions don't mean much except what we individually perceive them to mean. The same goes for top down or bottom up idea. Without having actually been there during the R&D and also knowing full well all the additions or deductions that go into moving the platform up or down the brand or product line, it's just talk, the cheap kind.
That has a whole lot more to do with one's own ego and/or security level and judgments against how a company chooses to do business or not and how someone else or others might perceive this. Amazing how so many base these things on so much that has so little to do with the products and how they actually fare or relate, etc. There is more to stuff than just branding and popular perceptions.
Acura is not without it's faults but come on, is there no line that should be drawn? Speaking of these other brands, there is no Infiniti in Japan except for one model that just intro'd and Lexus did not exist until a few years ago there either and so what? Brand, badge, parts, platforms, who cares?
Is any of that really any different than a 320 base costing half the price as a loaded 335, for example? Is an RLX that shares a basic platform structure with an Accord such a different concept and so much more outrageous than a $60k+ 335 compact entry sedan also available in basic form at half the cost in a 320?
Or how for example the "ultimate driving machine" doesn't have an actual LSD, uses MacPherson strut designs generally associated with the cheapest of auto manufacturing, and single piston brake calipers, all of which are not very luxury related and very economy car like and it's not just the 3 series but does any of that necessarily take away from the actual finished product as a whole?
No, and that's the same exact kind of things we see elsewhere but for some reason certain brands get cut a lot more slack than others. Such is life and there are many elements and dynamics that go into it but let's not truly kid ourselves or try to anyone else for that matter, since we our on the subject.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 02-23-2014 at 10:51 PM.
I see the spin the sales number game still exists in full force around here......................& so on
Interesting emotional diatribe
Oh its sales again. Corporate economic 101 “sell stuff at a profit” or die. Major Corporate Scorecard the Fortune 500 ranks based on sales. The other major scorecard that measures nameplate value rates MB & BMW at the top of all auto companies.
Platform usage. Honda is riding two platforms Civic/Accord with its Acura RLX flagship using a platform originally designed for a $20K economy car. MB, BMW, Audi don’t stretch the 3 series segment platform across into their flagship products. They did shrink the 3 series down by about 18” for the 1 series.
On the McPherson struts I think BMW developed their own version & did not copy Porsche 911 or the Ferrari 458 Italia’s.
MB’s C’s & BMW 3’s are expensive & have small trunks, think that’s common knowledge. Thing is most enthusiast buyers would not buy them if they were any bigger & would like to go back two variants in size if they had a choice. The 3 series sells from an under 2 liter British company car for low level managers & European taxies up to what is considered a world class performance car the M3. The 5, 6, 7, & 8 take the product line to a much higher level, same with MB E & S class. All Acura can show for the TL through RLX when compared to the top Accord is a bit more of the same. What does a RLX have over a full tech Accord? Right now the TL is behind the curve against the Accord.
You entitled to your opinion as am I but you seem to take it personal with the ego comments. I have a strong background in both marketing & auto technology so Acura fascinates me.
My interest in Acura's marketing or lack there of is from the point of view of a former profession marketeer running international marketing & technical sales for one of the largest global financial intuitions in the world. From that perspective Acura would make a great B school case study in futility. This is despite the fact that their products are technically good, actually better than the way they sell
From the technical side I was a school trained Army senior tracked vehicle recovery mechanic, dealership sponsored driver, successful hobbyist engine & car builder. If my car choices were all about ego gratification I most likely would not have bought the 135is or spend about 1/2 my seat time in a 15 year old pickup truck.
That being said as someone who has been, their done that, I enjoy the debates especially with the magazine spec racers who have never been there.
BTW anyone who is interested I am posting info on my current project in the Racing & Competition Section of Acurazine.
Expect it to work out a 450HP X 2250lbs. Should run nice at VIR.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-24-2014 at 01:39 PM.
Not really emotional, I don't think of cars or my ownership experiences in that sense, try to focus on the objective so it's mostly logical thinking that way, and one can still come away with that same conclusion having nothing to do with emotion and I'll explain.
My intent was to highlight some facts that supports the idea that perception can go a long way and that's not to take away from anyone else but at the same time shouldn't take form Acura. There are plenty of examples throughout the industry on these sorts of things when it comes to platforms, badging, parts, parent companies, etc, it's not just Acura. That type of card can played among quite a few brands and in many similar ways yet it only seems to affect Acura, or people point to them on the matter or as examples, which was a focal point and is also the reasons why it may not only be about that and also where I may disagree.
Yes, no question sales are the most critical thing but I have a problem when some use them both for and against at the same time. It's not the sales, it's the fact that when the sales are better it doesn't matter, but when they are worse, it's "see I told you so", or see "I'm correct in my assertions". If you can't use them both ways, then anyway you use them in the first place has little to no basis IMO, this goes beyond cars, or in defense of anything really, more about keeping discussion honest which is important.
Honda uses a platform for a few of the same models as far as anyone here can tell, period, (and by the way there is more than only two platforms in the Acura line), but is it truly an economy car platform just because it is highlighted there? Is there nothing in it's R&D that accounts for what they plan for future Acura models? Could it really be designed with a TLX or RLX as well as future components in mind yet it's utilized for production in the Accord first due to model cycles? Does that somehow make it objectively inferior and in what ways exactly? Think we get the point though.
You see, in a subjective sense that carries more weight IMO, with things like pricing, perception, and stature coming into play but objectively speaking, a single platform is material based, as are other platforms, how we separate what we like from one car to the other is not necessarily the platform, it's the overall product. Is it not possible for the utilization of an "Accord" platform to be better or no worse than a separate but distinct one?
No one buys a car or doesn't based on it's platform alone, drive-train, price, features, styling, etc, all a part of the equation. To make or break a car based entirely on it's platform or what it's shared with and where, is very sort sighted IMO, same goes for the brand. I get the knocks against FWD and all that and IMO that's fine, not that I agree 100% as no one forces anybody to buy a FWD or FWD based luxury vehicle but there is a market for it and outside of that, how does the simple fact that this car shares a platform with that change anything or make it automatically inferior?
I think you among many are letting the fact that Honda offers closely based products including between the regular and luxury division alter your judgement. Nothing you have said with regards to "more of the same" can't be applied elsewhere or in another brand. So what if some products are closely associated with an Accord?
They are not Accords and what is so different about the other products and their line except for that they may have more models available. I see small, medium and large across the industry and a lot of the same content, engines, features and trannys even, don't see how that is so different other than a few more models but to me it's also more of the same everywhere you look.
If it's about FWD in different sizes for Acura then know that there is a lot of RWD and AWD in different sizes all over the market as well. I don't think the business models that some brands don't reach as far up while others as far down should change the perspective. Shouldn't have anything to do with it IMO.
Furthermore, most people only own the one or two vehicles not an entire brand line and most luxury purchasers can actually find a compatible Acura product in their line, whether they chose to or not and why is another discussion but objectively speaking, what difference does any of that other stuff actually make to those one or two purchases with regards to the actual products themselves? It doesn't.
As you said, we have our opinions but I don't think the platform sharing or association is Acura's biggest hurdle, maybe I give them more credit than others do but I think that sharing is an asset, not a liability and also that they have a long list of issues that come before that. We would probably agree on the other aspects of their failed marketing approaches and opportunities as well as not having taken the brand a little bit higher here and there and adopting at least one RWD model but I still think they could have made much better decisions with what they still do have and did have vs needing another direction altogether or jumping on the same ship as everyone else.
The platform is the easiest to target IMO but based on similar findings elsewhere, I don't think that's it. Certainly one of the issues in the general buying populations overall perception but they could also leave it as is and still have plenty of room for additional success and also create a better luxury vehicle image. I guess we will find out though.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 02-25-2014 at 12:15 AM.
Let's not forget the Dodge charger as competitor even if it does not belong to the segment theoretically.
Almost 100.000 sold in 2019 (actually increasing sales vs. other sedans) and the majority of them wit the 392 and Hellcat engine...obviously they are doing something right.
I saw this one today, exactly the same color at the Jeep dealership where my Trackhawk was being serviced
Sub $50k, 0-60 in the high 3, 0.96g on the skidpad...what not to love?? No wonder they are selling like hotcakes....
Red Sport is running high 12's stock. Everyone is harping on the transmission and engine but the car was always fast out of the box even with the crappy tranny. Actually, the gap between Type S should be much bigger. I would not be surprised if Sam had his buddy take it easy on the Type S. He's done it before with other videos. Trust me on this. He wants him to come back for more videos.
Red Sport is also proof that having a faster car doesn't mean it will sell. I know it's an ancient platform now but even when they first came out, most shoppers didn't even take a second look at them. This was still before the brand completely fell off the cliff....
01-26-2014, 02:06 PM
