Damn nice job with the flowers. That is very upsetting since our kids look at us has heroes. She's going through that nasty realization of who he is. And yeah I have a friend who's like 40 that thinks very similarly to him. Little by little me and my friend have gotten her to function better but at your FIL's age that's extremely difficult.

 

Disclaimer: I don't really know how to do the PC softshoe and dance around it nicely, but I mean the following in the most respectful and serious manner.

Does he have a learning disability? Like ADD, ADHD, or dyslexia or something? I've known a few people who are fully functioning adults, like grandparent age, before they got diagnosed with ADHD. And then things started to make sense, like not being able to concentrate on seeing a simple task through, while still being able to tackle complex projects.

And dyslexia is a bugger because there are varying degrees of severity from "can't read a thing" to "goof up the letter order from time to time". It sounds like FIL is from the generation where dyslexia wasn't as well understood and a lot of the children with it were just looked over as "idiots" when they just need a bit more help. I have a friend with a mild dyslexia and it just takes a bit more time to to things. Definitely a super smart person, but you can't just sit them down with an instruction sheet and expect results.

I just wonder if some of the major issues you're currently observing are really masking a much more "severe" (although that's probably not the best word) matter. Like if you could figure out the "disability" and get the proper accommodations in place, things might start clicking better?

I hate casting someone out as an idiot... Maybe they just have a real difficulty?

 

Would love to know any specific things that have worked for you and your friends to get the person to slowly come around...

No need to sugarcoat anything here, any ideas are welcomed.

This has begun to be a topic of discussion among the wifey and I. I do not think there is any medical issue like ADHD, etc, but I am 100% positive that he suffers from some level of mental illness, albeit very slight.

Honestly, one of his main issues is that NO ONE has held him accountable for the last 20 years for ANYTHING. He supplemented his early SS withdrawals by buying stuff at local flee markets/yard sales and then selling them on Ebay, CL, to book wholesalers, etc. Don;t get the wrong impression, he did not make a lot of money doing this and has ZERO business sense. I am pretty amazed that he was not forclosed on and homeless based on what I know.

He has all the behavior traits of a pre-teen. Conversation gets tough? He will refuse to look at you and then eventually get up and run away or leave the house. 5 Things he needs to get done today? Guarantee he will simply avoid doing them.

Currently, I am struggling with his search for employment. I am not sure if he is just really terrible at job hunting/interviewing (entirely possible) or if he is actively subverting the process to avoid having to get a job. Now that the Wifey and I are asking him to show us the jobs he is applying for and the applications (accountability), he leaves the house at 6:30AM and does not return home until 7:30PM or later, as though by not being here we can't hold him accountable.

 

^Yeah I have a feeling he might be avoiding you guys for some space and freedom.

Well we built a lot of trust from our friend with common issues like people we knew, the gym where she helped it, and the people that own it that treat her poorly. At first we spoke to her separately and then me and buddy felt a joint attack would be more effective. Whenever she complained about an issue, we would show empathy, explain why they occurred, and assisted in possible solutions. It was sort of a good cop/bad cop approach too. My friend would be the sympathetic one and I was the no BS no nonsense one. As a matter of fact they call me the Enforcer When we kept showing her how our solutions would have solved issues and it got to the point we were predicting things that were happening to her, she realized we were right. But realization is just a step as she admitted she needed time to process and think and then on our own she would make set change. Mind you this took a year to accomplish and she went through some TERRIBLE times. She really sank emotionally and we were one of the few things going good for her. She's slowly coming out of her shell. She's joined with a new gym but still helps the other one because she's good friends with the members and has stood up to the owners.

 

I don't think I could do it. Both of my parents we too much of hardasses for me to tolerate people like that.

You and your wife should be commended for your effort, but like many have said, y'all also need to be careful. I know she feels a sense of shame about her father (or so I infer), but her father's ineptitude is completely out of her control. It's unreasonable for her to put an expectation on herself that she can change him or that she failed him if she gives up on him. I'm not saying it's not worth trying because it might work out, and I hope it does for everyone's sake. I'm just keeping a sense of reason alive in case the approach needs to be changed in the future.

 

Sometimes I ask myself why do I help this person. She's a friend but I never see her. I don't know it's just how people manipulate others that really upsets me.

 

I think there is a considerable difference in trying to help a friend versus a family member. Usually the family member brings on a bunch more emotional strain when things aren't working out than with a friend. I think that alone can make it a bit more tolerable to continue helping a friend. If a friend continues to struggle and you've genuinely helped, it's likely easier to be at peace with that. Often, family members are better off cutting ties almost completely in order to keep from enabling the detrimental behavior if progress isn't being made otherwise. It not only forces the other person to adjust, but it protects the helper from emotional damage.

 

Thanks, this is a very good approach, and the one we are expecting to eventually bear SOME fruit (although it would be great to have quicker success). I am certainly hoping for less "lows" than "highs" but that may be the eternal optimist in me speaking. I am glad it worked out (or is working out) for you and your friend. In terms of good cop bad cop, it;s funny because my FIL still feels like he needs to be polite to me, so I can have conversations with him that the wife cannot as he has a temper tantrum with her. I am using this brief time period (I know it will dissipate) to my advantage in dealing with some of the harder issues in a scaled fashion.


Totally agree, and a valid point and thank you for reminding me.

She is having trouble with the idea that her dad is a flop in many respects, but I think the activity of encouraging him is what is helping her see the bright side. I keep stressing to her that she should always remember that at the end of the day, she has not and will not ever give up on her dad, and is doing 100% more than ANYONE else has ever done or tried to do to help him out. Maybe he succeeds, maybe he doesn't. The result will be entirely up to him, not her, as she will have done everything she could. People have to stand on their own at some level. We can help him fill out the job application, help him prepare for the interview, help him iron his shirt that he will wear, but we can't go on the interview for him, nor can we go to the job he eventually gets every day and do the work for him.

Looking at it like a bullseye, we can only help with the outer two rings he needs to traverse to get to the inner ring. Once he is there, he has to carry his own weight. If all he needs is help getting past the outer two rings, we will have done our best to get him to the inner ring.

 

Make sure to not dwell entirely on the failures. Always take the time to point out and celebrate the positives and successes.

Or, as taught in management charm school... Feed him a shit sandwich: Something Good | Here's the Shitty Bits | Something Else Good.

 

75% of what we do is encouraging the good, 25% is correcting the bad. I make a point of always celebrating any modicum of success, however slight.

 

He got a part time job working the deli counter at a supermarket.

It's close to minimum wage, but it's a start. He has a few other prospects as well for PT/FT work, it just takes a long time for him to make small bits of progress, so the slog continues.

I, however, had a rough weekend. I just got fed up with having a stranger (and a very odd one at that) living in my house, the wifey was pissing me off, and I basically disengaged for the weekend. Just really didn't speak to anyone much or participate much. Not a good feeling (I actually felt sick over it), but I am realizing the toll this process is taking on me and the relationship with the wifey...

 

Yeah be careful man but totally understandable. That's normal when dealing with a relative in trouble. Sometimes you need some space. No matter how much you love your wife, sometimes you need YOUR time.

My ex-wife's sister recently became homeless but not because of the system or Da Man but because of pure incompetence that she's had since I knew her Day 1. Though I'm glad it's not my mess it still affects me because my daughters obviously live with their mom sometimes and her sister might stay there occasionally where it's already crowded with 3 kids, 2 adults in a 2 bedroom condo. Her parents have already pretty much stopped helping her and my ex is so frustrated with her. There's a fine line between being a helper and an enabler. You've definitely leaned more towards the helper side as he's progressing.

Hopefully he holds the job because dealing with people, on your feet all day, and working with food straight up SUCKS. Just gotta keep him looking for a better job. Sorry if I'm all over, this thread kind of helps me vent as well but there are some parallels (I think) there

 

You hit the nail on the head...

I also spoke to Mrs. Stogie this morning about trying to be more aware of other people's emotional states. She tends to see things from her perspective only, and so she missed a lot of the warning signs that I was ready to explode... It's something she neglects generally, so I am not being singled out, but it's a good skill to have in life.

 

My mother-in-law "lived" with my wife and I for one week while we were in college...

Luckily for me, she gets more annoyed than I do, so I have never really had to say it's time to go.

Keep it up, Jefford. You're earning brownie points faster than a girl scout with a bag of Caramel Delights.

 

Mother in laws are the worst when they stay with you. My ex's mom would stay with us a few weeks when a kid was born to help out. She used the guest bath so her shits stunk up our townhouse even with a/c cranking and Lysol. Plus complaint, complaint, complaint.

 

A little good news, the house is rented.

 

My wife and I have actually reached the point where we just warn each other that trouble is brewing inside. Neither of us are very good with reading "signs" - I cover things up way too much (so I have no visible signs, which is bad) and she tends to be too expressive (that is, she might be angry that shoes don't fit or her dad has cancer, or somewhere in between, but because the reaction is often not proportional to the cause, the tendency is to dismiss it).

So now days we just announce to each other that we're in a piss mood. We even have a hand gesture for it. Takes the guess work out of what's going on inside. It's actually quite effective just to know, so I don't walk around wondering what I did.

 

kudos to you stogie... you are a good man.. your wife is lucky to have you, and your wife's dad is lucky to have a great daughter... in this day in age, many seniors that are a 'lost cause' just get forgotten and end up rotting somewhere alone and mad... thank you sir for being human and understanding how important family is... we need more people like you in this world...

just remember to try and stay patient on bad days.. i know it's hard but you can do it!

 

This is a good idea! I may steal it in some fashion or another...

 

Let me guess the hand gesture.

 

I really just want to tell the FIL "whatever you decide for ANYTHING, please just do the exact opposite"...

So frustrating when someone consistently makes the wrong decision based on immediate pain/pleasure and has no concept of "delayed gratification."

 

Yeah I walked into that one.

Truth be told, we put our hands up, palms toward the other person. Kind of like if you were on a trail and stumbled on an angry cobra rattling it's tail at you. Put your hands up, say "peace angry snake, I see you, I'm just going to go this other direction".

 

This will be my new code phrase with the wife....

 

I don't have any useful advice, but I am enjoying this thread and do respect your dedication to him. I think you're doing a lot more than most would in your situation.

 

It sounds goofy, but it's surprisingly useful.

 

I have the patience to deal with someone like him, but I choose not to

My Mom would have projects like this (usually females that made bad choices early in life) that she would mentor. Kudos to you.

 

Damn dude, I don't think I could do it. I give you major props but like others have said, be careful. I can't imagine the stress this is putting on your marriage.

 

We all went out for breakfast this weekend (secretly, the plan was to bring up "progress") and it went very well.

We brought it up as a "what is done and what still need attention" conversation.

He has been here for two months now and has:
1. Gotten a car
2. Found a few jobs (menial, but hey)
3. Gotten all paperwork handled he needed to (Homeowners insurance, license, etc)
4. Found a tenant for the rental house (OK, wife and I did this, but we gave it to him/the team )

Things that still require attention (things we are nudging him about because he has been slow to do them...)
1. Find a BETTER job that uses his skills (and will allow him to afford a nicer apartment). After doing a little "interview prep" role playing for one job he applied for, we stressed that we, as a team, need to do much more of this. His answers to basic interview questions led me to understand why no one as calling him back...
2. Find an apartment. Even if it's only a basic one for now. We made it clear that this (moving out) is a priority of high order.
3. Figure out his damn health insurance. He has dragged his feet mainly because it's confusing and he doesn't understand what questions to ask let alone the answers. We found him a good resource that should be able to guide him through the process.


Overall, I am please that he has made ANY progress. Honestly, any forward motion is good, and after each significant decision making process he goes through, i can see him getting (a little) better and better at knowing when to bring the wife and I in on the decision. Also, it's reassuring to have him come around to my way of thinking on decisions after he vehemently disagrees but then thinks about it for a day or two. I have a way of making him think it's his idea, and that is key for him.

 

Nice job!

 

Inception!!! I knew it was real! I need your secrets... for 'um... things.

 

Another small victory

Wife and I coached him for interview questions for a part time job (I mentioned "prepping him" above) and he got the job. Amazing what a little effort can accomplish. It's a driver position helping older people who can't drive get to the store, go grocery shopping, get to the Dr., run errands, etc. You actually help the people at their destinations and then get them home. The customers buy blocks of time per month based on their needs. Pretty cool idea.


Also, and I every time, he still uses AOL.

As in, the AOL PROGRAM. I hear him on his laptop and all of a sudden I hear "You've got... MAIL!"

 

I wish he'd use the dial up too

Can he sustain with just that driver job?

 

Not sure about the driver job. There is no guarantee of hours, (it's a 10-99 position) so we will have to wait and see how the hours work out. Fingers crossed, though.

 

I am right about here...

 

Uh oh. I had a bad feeling too when I saw this in my subscriptions.

 

I busted out laughing when I saw that pic, sorry, know it isn't funny, family is ROUGH.

 

I mean, what are you going to do, right? I have to laugh about it myself sometimes...

So here is the explanation for why I am at the end of my rope:

Nothing changes. At all. With out incredible pressure from the wifey or I (or both).

I am coming to the conclusion that one of three possible scenarios is at play here (or some combination of them).

1. (Wants the end result, isn't capable of getting to it)
Perhaps he is really intellectually challenged. Like, medically. He just does not seem to get things, even basic cause/effect. He takes forever to get simple tasks done like "find an accountant to have a consultation with", or "find the five closest apartment complexes with apartments in your price range." These tasks take many days or even weeks. It is possible that he is really simple minded and the processes involved (google searching, websites, phone calls, etc.) befuddle him. Unfortunately, IF this is the case, he refuses to see it (not very introspective) and actively reprimands us when we try to teach him things by calling us out for saying he is stupid (which we would never do, of course).

2. (Wants the end result, is too lazy to put any effort into getting to it)
Perhaps he has taught himself to be incredibly "effort averse." He seems to take a really long time to get anything done that involves any effort. He also seems to hide from effort/difficulty on a scale I have never seen before. As an example, the wife and I regularly help him out on moving forward things, give him useful suggestions, encouragement, prods when he is not progressing, etc. He sees this as "pestering" and since he does not want to be pestered, he actually (I am not kidding here) leaves the house before we get out of bed and only returns very late at night, even on nights he does not work, so as to avoid us. He always has 23 excuses why any one particular task did not get done, it's never his fault and always some huge difficulty that totally prevented him from getting it done. It is astounding the levels he goes to to avoid effort (obviously making MORE effort/hardship in the future). I truly believe he think the following: "What do I have to do TODAY to make it to the end of this day with the absolute least amount of emotional/physical hardship?" There is no thought beyond simply "ending this day alive"... No sacrifice now for future returns, no effort now for advantage later, no how can I make my life easier in the long run even if it doesn't feel good today. He literally (I kid you not) runs away from the wife and I when he doesn't want to discuss tough issues. He will tell lies about what he did that day (meaning what he didn't do) if it makes a conversation about his progress end for the moment (i.e. us: "did you call so and so?" him: "I called and they never called back" when I know he never called them).

3. (Does not want the end result, actively resists in a patronizing way)
I have a hard time believing that anyone could want to live the lifestyle he lives, but there is a possibility that he has absolutely NO intention of putting any effort into bettering his situation. The resistance we meet at EVERY step may simply be his defiance. He has a rent free room in our house. He goes to a bagel shop every day to avoid us, just like he went to a bagel shop every day when he lived in FL. He sits there all day talking with other customers, reading a paper if someone leaves one there, browsing the web, chatting in AOL chat rooms, etc... Sometimes he goes to the library if he gets bored at the bagel shop. He generally works from 4PM to 9PM, so he has the entire day available to him and he leaves the house at 7AM to avoid us. It;s entirely possible he thinks the wife and i are full of shit, and he is going to ride the free room and board as long as he can and when forced out will "make do"...

Ultimately, the wife is really saddened. She had hoped having her dad nearby would lead to a closer relationship between the two, but it has had just the opposite effect. She does not want to be around him and he certainly does not want to be around us most of the time. I am reluctant to even suggest little nice things to him, like meeting his daughter for lunch once a week... Honestly, they don't have anything to talk about.

We have really stepped up the discussions about finding an apartment SOON, but again, all the above come into play. He thinks there are no affordable apartments, because he can't find one within five minutes of our house with granite counter-tops and 1500 SqFt for $500/month with all utilities included... The incredibly unrealistic expectations are a big issue, along with the fact that the guy wants a "champagne" apartment but has only ever tried to get a Bud Light job... He actually siggested using his VERY LITTLE savings we gave him when he moved out here to pay for the additional cost of a nicer apartment! When I asked him what will happen when that runs out, he had no idea.

I am starting to see a pattern. 30 Years ago when his parents passed away, his brother said "I don't want anything to do with you" (I don't have the complete story). 15 years ago, wife's mother divorced him and said I don't want to have anything to do with you (they are actually friendly now, pleasantly). One would think after the second time this happened, he would have a come-to-Jesus moment, but here we are 15 years later, ready to tell him that we don't want anything to do with him because he is such a total pain in the ass...

I am sad. Sad for having given SO MUCH time, effort, love and energy to him only to have it come to this. I guess it's partly my selfishness that leads to my disappointment. I wanted to succeed in having him succeed, and when it didn't happen I see a little bit of failure in me, which I don't understand.

Really, I just don't understand. I gave him ALL the tools, ALL the patience and time and suggestions, and opportunities to learn and succeed, and for whatever reason, he is no different (maybe things are even worse) than before.

At the end of the day, I tried. Really effing hard. I don't regret trying, and will probably continue to try for the rest of his life, albeit in much less of an involved way. That is his loss, and I am not sure he ever will know the extent of it. His son (and his son's family) came into town for Thanksgiving. AFAIK, his son (who shares many of his father's traits) never even really talked about things with his dad, never really asked wifey or I how things were going, never really offered any assistance to us. Path of least resistance...

I don't know where this is going to end up, but the wife and I have a life to live and we are going to live it. We want to have kids, but FIL is currently living in the room that will be the nursery. We have life plans and (unlike FIL) will do whatever it takes to make them happen.

Sorry for the rambling...

 

I'm thinking all of the above. My boss is very dumb when it comes to computers but is a smart guy. Has to ask me how to save a file, copy/paste, etc. It's a generational thing as my boss is like 64. But his lack of motivation doensn't push him to go forward anyways to learn these things. I agree with you that it sounds like he's trying to stall and sadly until you give him an ultimatum he won't budge. And trust me when said ulitmatium comes down, he will use every dodging maneuver and excuse in the book to guilt you into more time. I know this because my ex's sister has done and continues to do so. I've felt bad for her and forgave on a few hundred dollars she owes me that I'll never see. So no don't blame yourself because some people just don't give a fuck whether medical, chemical, or just straight assholes. I know you want to have a normal FIL that has a relationship with your wife which would be AWESOME, but sadly this guy seems to sound toxic. Continue with your plans of trying to have kids and use the excuse of her being pregnant and needing the room for him to GTFO. And HELL no he ain't sharing a room with your future kid.

 

No.Effing.Way.

 

Sorry you are having to deal with all this - I can relate.

I might make one suggestion that's helped us a lot, and that's to see a family counselor. Not with him - just you and your wife.

What we've come to realize about my FIL, through counseling, is that his behavior can be very clearly categorized as mentally ill. Now I've known him for 25+ years and I don't know that I would have ever used that phrase, but we realize now we didn't have the skills to identify what was going on let alone deal with it constructively. And my wife had a complete blind spot to it because she grew up with it. To her, it was all just "dad being dad". But if someone who really needs counseling isn't going to get it, then you almost need counseling yourself to acquire the skills to deal with that person. My wife and I have no background in psychology - we had no more skills to properly interact with our FIL than we would trying to operate on someone. Counseling has been a life saver.

In my amateur opinion, your FIL's very passive-aggressive approach to life seems to be decades long. I'm going to guess he's in his 70's or there about. Our first revelation about my FIL is that he's not going to change, and we're not in any position to change him. So the skills we learned balance the fact that we DO need to interact with him and he IS dependent on our help, but we can set boundaries now where his behavior doesn't destroy our lives. You may be barking up the wrong tree trying to counsel or motivate your FIL into better behavior. If he's been this way for 30+ years, and it's destroyed some relationships already, he is what he is at this point IMO.

But it's been hard, especially for my wife. But she had to gain an entirely new perspective on the situation first before things started to improve. She sees a counselor about twice a month, and in turn she's actually been able to make some small changes in our FIL. It will never be perfect, but I can't emphasize enough how much acquiring some skills from a professional has improved things. My wife was too immersed from her childhood, and I was too focused on protecting her. It wasn't until we got an outsider's perspective that things changed. The counselor was able to identify the issues with my FIL, repair some of the 47 years of damage with my wife, and finally convinced her that none of what we were experiencing was normal. It wasn't "dad being dad". He's ill, and we needed to interact with him with that understanding. We have a pretty good set of skills now to move forward and maintain the balance of helping him but not being destroyed ourselves in the process.