Engagement/Marriage
08-20-2008, 03:19 PM
#121
Registered but harmless
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First, I do not believe that men have less discretionary income in marriage. My understanding is that, in a dual income-single household marriage, the parties both have MORE disposable income because the costs of the single household are less than that of two separate households, along with the lower tax rate. This applies whether there are kids or not- child support is a neutral item since both married and unmarried parents conceptually face the same obligations for their kids.
What sources show that the man will have less discretionary income if married, all other circumstances being equal?
Second, you wrote "Until you can show me a specific legal benefit to marriage FOR A MAN, my opinion stands." So I gave you a specific legal benefit to marriage for a man (which also applies to the woman, or in California, to each spouse). You did not place conditions or contextual limitations on the legal benefit which might alter your opinion.
Feel free to back down off your opinion now.
08-20-2008, 03:33 PM
#122
Earth-bound misfit
You just want the excuse to go to CO!! 
Hang on, let me kick my shoes off first...
08-20-2008, 03:33 PM
#123
I'm Down Right Fierce!
Thread Starter
Shit. I just had this whole post typed up responding to all your responses like you did in mine. But when I went to hit submit reply, Azine had logged me off. :grumble: Freaking A.
I'll make it short since i have a client meeting at 2:
1. Marriage presents more problems than LTRs primarily because marriage is supposed to be a finality. For most, I would imagine it would be much harder leaving their wife of 8 years than a GF of 8 years, primarily because of the fact that you have together accrued many things together: friends, children, property, etc. Sure there are people who have pre-nups stating that everything should be seperate property, but for the vast majority there are not.
2. I never stated getting married was an ultimatem: if anything its a decision that we've made together. It's not a "get married or break up" type of deal. It's more or less that we understand we love each other and want to be each other's final loves. So I know that if i ask, she'll say yes; its just a matter of timing.
3. THe whole idea that marriage is a legally binding contract is a legal fiction; the marriage certificate itself does nothing more than to legally hold you and your spouse/partner accountable to hold yourselves out as a married person while in the jurisdiction of the U.S. (And trust me, I cali-ed my Contracts class first year with a 99, wrote multiple law review articles on Contract subjects, and pretty much had a 95% avg on Barbri Multi STate Contract questions... so I think I know just a little about contract law).
4. The only real legal effect marriage has is in regards to Community property law or states that still prosecute marital crimes such as Adultery. You can get around Community property laws by either 1. getting a prenup and following valid procedures OR 2. moving to a non community property state. Currently only 13-15 states recognize community property laws, with CA being the leader in that particular body of law. And as far as jurisdictions that prosecute marital crimes, I can only really think of one - Lousiana: they still practice Civil Law instead of Common law.
5. Fine. Maybe there are more women shmoozing money off of rich men; but you can't say for certain, neither can I. Without numbers, we'll never really know. But just think of a few examples in the media today: Ashton Kutcher, Chris Cannon, etc. It's certainly becoming a trend isn't it? And who's to say an older richer woman cant have a nice ass and give a great blow job?
6. For myself, a pre-nup isn't absolutely out of the quesiton: its just that I really dont have much so it's not something thats at the fore front of my mind. I don't own real property, I have an Acura depreciating faster than Joan Rivers' face, and maybe like $45k in checking/banking/investment accounts (which will be depleted to fourth of that if I buy an engagement ring, plan for a wedding and get a new car this winter/spring).
7.
I feel like I'm pretty educated? Am I really that stupid for wanting to get married?
I'll make it short since i have a client meeting at 2:
1. Marriage presents more problems than LTRs primarily because marriage is supposed to be a finality. For most, I would imagine it would be much harder leaving their wife of 8 years than a GF of 8 years, primarily because of the fact that you have together accrued many things together: friends, children, property, etc. Sure there are people who have pre-nups stating that everything should be seperate property, but for the vast majority there are not.
2. I never stated getting married was an ultimatem: if anything its a decision that we've made together. It's not a "get married or break up" type of deal. It's more or less that we understand we love each other and want to be each other's final loves. So I know that if i ask, she'll say yes; its just a matter of timing.
3. THe whole idea that marriage is a legally binding contract is a legal fiction; the marriage certificate itself does nothing more than to legally hold you and your spouse/partner accountable to hold yourselves out as a married person while in the jurisdiction of the U.S. (And trust me, I cali-ed my Contracts class first year with a 99, wrote multiple law review articles on Contract subjects, and pretty much had a 95% avg on Barbri Multi STate Contract questions... so I think I know just a little about contract law).
4. The only real legal effect marriage has is in regards to Community property law or states that still prosecute marital crimes such as Adultery. You can get around Community property laws by either 1. getting a prenup and following valid procedures OR 2. moving to a non community property state. Currently only 13-15 states recognize community property laws, with CA being the leader in that particular body of law. And as far as jurisdictions that prosecute marital crimes, I can only really think of one - Lousiana: they still practice Civil Law instead of Common law.
5. Fine. Maybe there are more women shmoozing money off of rich men; but you can't say for certain, neither can I. Without numbers, we'll never really know. But just think of a few examples in the media today: Ashton Kutcher, Chris Cannon, etc. It's certainly becoming a trend isn't it? And who's to say an older richer woman cant have a nice ass and give a great blow job?
6. For myself, a pre-nup isn't absolutely out of the quesiton: its just that I really dont have much so it's not something thats at the fore front of my mind. I don't own real property, I have an Acura depreciating faster than Joan Rivers' face, and maybe like $45k in checking/banking/investment accounts (which will be depleted to fourth of that if I buy an engagement ring, plan for a wedding and get a new car this winter/spring).
7.
I feel like I'm pretty educated? Am I really that stupid for wanting to get married?
08-20-2008, 03:35 PM
#124
Earth-bound misfit
First, I do not believe that men have less discretionary income in marriage. My understanding is that, in a dual income-single household marriage, the parties both have MORE disposable income because the costs of the single household are less than that of two separate households, along with the lower tax rate. This applies whether there are kids or not- child support is a neutral item since both married and unmarried parents conceptually face the same obligations for their kids.
What sources show that the man will have less discretionary income if married, all other circumstances being equal?
Second, you wrote "Until you can show me a specific legal benefit to marriage FOR A MAN, my opinion stands." So I gave you a specific legal benefit to marriage for a man (which also applies to the woman, or in California, to each spouse). You did not place conditions or contextual limitations on the legal benefit which might alter your opinion.
Feel free to back down off your opinion now.
You forgot about all the sparkly things, new clothes, caviar, Dom Perignon, etc. that us wimmenfolk require daily. Duh.
08-20-2008, 04:39 PM
#125
First, I do not believe that men have less discretionary income in marriage. My understanding is that, in a dual income-single household marriage, the parties both have MORE disposable income because the costs of the single household are less than that of two separate households, along with the lower tax rate. This applies whether there are kids or not- child support is a neutral item since both married and unmarried parents conceptually face the same obligations for their kids.
What sources show that the man will have less discretionary income if married, all other circumstances being equal?
That is why when men get divorced their standard of living increases and when women get divorced their standard of living decreases. Figures show an increase of 10% to as high as 43% in standard of living for men after divorce. While more than a one-fourth (27%) drop for women.
...according to a landmark study in 1996 by Richard Peterson, then a sociologist at the Social Science Research Council in New York.
(Note: Since I'm using numbers I'll quote a study)
If anything marriage creates an assumption of more responsibilities, liabilities, and accountability for men.
There is a sacrifice men must embrace for a marriage to satisfy the long-term security needs of women. That inherently limits the ambitions and autonomy of men.
Dr. Burton was neither the first nor the last to comment that marriage is a hindrance to "all good enterprises.” “Woman inspires us to great things," remarked Alexandre Dumas, "and prevents us from achieving them.” The bitter Friedrich Nietzsche believed marriage (if not women, in general) a distraction from philosophical pursuits. It is a commonplace that most important writers, artists and philosophers have been bachelors, or in the least effectively single in the way Abelard, Franklin, Rousseau, Milton, Thomas Paine and Shakespeare remained. “Certainly the best works, and of greatest merit for the public, have proceeded from the unmarried or childless men,” wrote Sir Francis Bacon (not a bachelor, but perhaps wishing he were). H.L. Mencken, who once suggested bringing back the dollar-a-day bachelor tax (it was worth that much to be single) likewise commented on the superiority of the bachelor— only to Mencken it was the bachelor's great intellect and creativity that kept him single, not the other way round.
When men ask that dreaded question; "Why should I get married? What's in it for me?" They're met with significant resistance and are very effectively marginalized (as is obvious here). I take your disagreement with my opinion as a clear indicator of that.
Second, you wrote "Until you can show me a specific legal benefit to marriage FOR A MAN, my opinion stands." So I gave you a specific legal benefit to marriage for a man (which also applies to the woman, or in California, to each spouse). You did not place conditions or contextual limitations on the legal benefit which might alter your opinion.
Feel free to back down off your opinion now.
Feel free to back down off your opinion now.
08-20-2008, 05:40 PM
#126
1. Marriage presents more problems than LTRs primarily because marriage is supposed to be a finality. For most, I would imagine it would be much harder leaving their wife of 8 years than a GF of 8 years, primarily because of the fact that you have together accrued many things together: friends, children, property, etc. Sure there are people who have pre-nups stating that everything should be seperate property, but for the vast majority there are not.
You can accrue all the items I underlined without marriage.
2. I never stated getting married was an ultimatem: if anything its a decision that we've made together. It's not a "get married or break up" type of deal. It's more or less that we understand we love each other and want to be each other's final loves. So I know that if i ask, she'll say yes; its just a matter of timing.
But I don't understand how/why you feel the need to get married.
I suppose you can't have "love" without being married? Is that what women are selling these days? heh. Or how about this myth that you'll be old and lonely
3. THe whole idea that marriage is a legally binding contract is a legal fiction; the marriage certificate itself does nothing more than to legally hold you and your spouse/partner accountable to hold yourselves out as a married person while in the jurisdiction of the U.S. (And trust me, I cali-ed my Contracts class first year with a 99, wrote multiple law review articles on Contract subjects, and pretty much had a 95% avg on Barbri Multi STate Contract questions... so I think I know just a little about contract law).
What I meant by that is, marriage is something you agree to that has legal consequences associated with.
California is a no-fault dirvorce state. Without a prenup, who do you think resolves divorce matters? The courts do, and the courts overwhelmingly favor women.
4. The only real legal effect marriage has is in regards to Community property law or states that still prosecute marital crimes such as Adultery. You can get around Community property laws by either 1. getting a prenup and following valid procedures OR 2. moving to a non community property state. Currently only 13-15 states recognize community property laws, with CA being the leader in that particular body of law. And as far as jurisdictions that prosecute marital crimes, I can only really think of one - Lousiana: they still practice Civil Law instead of Common law.
5. Fine. Maybe there are more women shmoozing money off of rich men; but you can't say for certain, neither can I. Without numbers, we'll never really know. But just think of a few examples in the media today: Ashton Kutcher, Chris Cannon, etc. It's certainly becoming a trend isn't it? And who's to say an older richer woman cant have a nice ass and give a great blow job?
And older rich women do not have the youth and vitality younger women have. Period.
Cougars do what they have to do to compete with young girls. I.E., shaming older men into sleeping with them (you're robbing the cradle how dare you!) or by giving up the pooty with less resistance. But in the end the marketability of an older woman dramatically decreases as she ages.
6. For myself, a pre-nup isn't absolutely out of the quesiton: its just that I really dont have much so it's not something thats at the fore front of my mind. I don't own real property, I have an Acura depreciating faster than Joan Rivers' face, and maybe like $45k in checking/banking/investment accounts (which will be depleted to fourth of that if I buy an engagement ring, plan for a wedding and get a new car this winter/spring).
A prenup is THEE smartest way to get married for men. At least that way you can establish ground rules.
If she doesn't want a prenup, she must not love you very much
7. I feel like I'm pretty educated? Am I really that stupid for wanting to get married?
I feel like I'm pretty educated? Am I really that stupid for wanting to get married?
Between 1950 and 2000, married 15-to-24 women fell to 16 percent, from 42 percent
UNITED STATES, January 17, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Married couples are well on their way to becoming a rarity in the United States, a New York Times report on the Census Bureau’s latest American Community Survey in 2005 found, married couples listed as a minority in U.S. households for the first time.
Fifty-one percent of women over the age of 15 said they were living without a spouse in 2005--having either never married, being divorced, separated or living apart from their husbands for some other reason.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/jan/07011703.html
Oh but there's nothing to worry about, marriage is perfectly fine!
Good luck!
08-20-2008, 05:54 PM
#127
Bottom-line:
Marriage is a romanticized ideal and it's failing in this country. What are the reasons? What are the social consequences? Well, those need more exploration.
I can't say I'm happy that marriage is failing, but I won't blindly accept a romanticized ideal being pushed on me either.
The only purpose for marriage, in my opinion, is serving as an insurance policy for your family. Not for you, but for your wife and kids. It takes sacrifice and does not gaurantee that your S/O will not either cheat on you or take advantage of you. You simply cannot assume that it will sustain inevitably or not change significantly from day one.
With that in mind I feel it's absolutely necessary to get a prenup to establish ground rules for a highly probable divorce. At least, for your kids' sake, they won't see an ugly mess at home that can have long-lasting consequences for them.
There I'm done
Marriage is a romanticized ideal and it's failing in this country. What are the reasons? What are the social consequences? Well, those need more exploration.
I can't say I'm happy that marriage is failing, but I won't blindly accept a romanticized ideal being pushed on me either.
The only purpose for marriage, in my opinion, is serving as an insurance policy for your family. Not for you, but for your wife and kids. It takes sacrifice and does not gaurantee that your S/O will not either cheat on you or take advantage of you. You simply cannot assume that it will sustain inevitably or not change significantly from day one.
With that in mind I feel it's absolutely necessary to get a prenup to establish ground rules for a highly probable divorce. At least, for your kids' sake, they won't see an ugly mess at home that can have long-lasting consequences for them.
There I'm done
08-20-2008, 06:03 PM
#130
Go Giants
I'm going to laugh and laugh when Amis gets married....
08-20-2008, 06:07 PM
#132
Earth-bound misfit
08-20-2008, 06:10 PM
#133
Go Giants
08-20-2008, 06:11 PM
#134
Earth-bound misfit
Yes. I always wanted a misogynist of my very own. 
Wait.
Did you just call me a girl? As in...admitting I'm not a man? Stop the presses!! :P
Wait.
Did you just call me a girl? As in...admitting I'm not a man? Stop the presses!! :P
08-20-2008, 06:20 PM
#136
Registered but harmless
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On balance, men end up with less discretionary cash while in a marriage...
That is why when men get divorced their standard of living increases and when women get divorced their standard of living decreases. Figures show an increase of 10% to as high as 43% in standard of living for men after divorce. While more than a one-fourth (27%) drop for women....
That is why when men get divorced their standard of living increases and when women get divorced their standard of living decreases. Figures show an increase of 10% to as high as 43% in standard of living for men after divorce. While more than a one-fourth (27%) drop for women....
Here's something to consider regarding divorces, although it also does not address discretionary funds available to a married vs. an unmarried man:
Originally Posted by USA Today
Study: Marriage builds wealth and divorce destroys it
1/18/2006 WASHINGTON (AP) — Marrying for money, it turns out, works.
A study by an Ohio State University researcher shows that a person who marries — and stays married — accumulates nearly twice as much personal wealth as a person who is single or divorced.
And for those who divorce, it's a bit more expensive than giving up half of everything they own. They lose, on average, three-fourths of their personal net worth.
"Getting married for a few years and then getting divorced is clearly not the path to financial independence," said Jay Zagorsky, whose study divided married couples' assets so they could be compared with singles.
Zagorsky, a research scientist at OSU's Center for Human Resource Research, tracked the wealth and marital status of 9,055 people from 1985 to 2000. Those people have been participating in the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth, which has repeatedly interviewed them about various aspects of their lives since 1979.
...
The study found that men fared better than women after divorce, holding about 2 1/2 times the wealth. However, in dollars, it added up to a difference of only $5,124.
"While men come out slightly ahead, divorce destroys wealth dramatically for both sexes," Zagorsky wrote in his study.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...gewealth_x.htm
1/18/2006 WASHINGTON (AP) — Marrying for money, it turns out, works.
A study by an Ohio State University researcher shows that a person who marries — and stays married — accumulates nearly twice as much personal wealth as a person who is single or divorced.
And for those who divorce, it's a bit more expensive than giving up half of everything they own. They lose, on average, three-fourths of their personal net worth.
"Getting married for a few years and then getting divorced is clearly not the path to financial independence," said Jay Zagorsky, whose study divided married couples' assets so they could be compared with singles.
Zagorsky, a research scientist at OSU's Center for Human Resource Research, tracked the wealth and marital status of 9,055 people from 1985 to 2000. Those people have been participating in the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth, which has repeatedly interviewed them about various aspects of their lives since 1979.
...
The study found that men fared better than women after divorce, holding about 2 1/2 times the wealth. However, in dollars, it added up to a difference of only $5,124.
"While men come out slightly ahead, divorce destroys wealth dramatically for both sexes," Zagorsky wrote in his study.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...gewealth_x.htm
Last edited by Will Y.; 08-20-2008 at 06:25 PM.
08-20-2008, 06:21 PM
#137
Earth-bound misfit
08-20-2008, 06:28 PM
#139
Go Giants
He is cooler then the rest of us...
08-20-2008, 06:29 PM
#140
Go Giants
08-20-2008, 06:32 PM
#142
Earth-bound misfit
08-20-2008, 06:32 PM
#143
Earth-bound misfit
08-20-2008, 08:30 PM
#144
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So should I pop the question or not?
Jesus.. this thread is something else
08-20-2008, 08:35 PM
#145
08-20-2008, 08:38 PM
#146
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We're going to the coast and i'll propose at the same spot where we had our first "date"
She knows its coming.. definitely no surprising her. We've been talking about it for almost a year.
She knows its coming.. definitely no surprising her. We've been talking about it for almost a year.
08-20-2008, 08:43 PM
#147
Earth-bound misfit
Congrats Ken!
08-20-2008, 08:43 PM
#148
GEEZER
I guess I MUST be a fool to not really worry about the divorce end of things and money. I suppose i am a romantic . 
It also helps that my wife is the single most coolest person i have ever met. Otherwise I would not have married her. To me...that is what it is all about.
It also helps that my wife is the single most coolest person i have ever met. Otherwise I would not have married her. To me...that is what it is all about.
08-20-2008, 08:44 PM
#149
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Billsame here, she is THE coolest girl I've ever met, my friends and family love her.
08-20-2008, 08:45 PM
#150
GEEZER
08-20-2008, 08:45 PM
#151
GEEZER
08-20-2008, 08:49 PM
#152
I'm Down Right Fierce!
Thread Starter
Ah screw it guys. Amis has convinced me. Marrying isn't the way to go. After all it's doomed to fail because 50% of marriages fail.
08-20-2008, 08:56 PM
#153
Team Owner
iTrader: (4)
I guess I MUST be a fool to not really worry about the divorce end of things and money. I suppose i am a romantic .
It also helps that my wife is the single most coolest person i have ever met. Otherwise I would not have married her. To me...that is what it is all about.
It also helps that my wife is the single most coolest person i have ever met. Otherwise I would not have married her. To me...that is what it is all about.
I feel I must also be a fool.
08-20-2008, 09:19 PM
#156
Old Man Yelling at Clouds
Sorry I missed this.
BraveDemon: To reply to your original question, get married when you feel it's right. Don't use age or income at a guide. There are no rules to this. I've know couples who dated 8 years before marrying, and others 8 months. I got married at 23, some of my friends not until 35. None of that has any effect on your marriage. Zero. What matters is how you feel about her, and her about you. When I reached the point where I could not even imagine my life without my wife, I asked her to marry me. I was in college with no job. We celebrate 18 years in a few days. All this talk about financially stable, before 30, etc. - all garbage. If she's the one, pull the trigger. What you do IN your marriage makes it strong or successful, not what you do to before hand or how long you wait.
Amis: If you want to have that kind of opinion about marriage, that's fine. You're entitled to it. By all means don't get married either. There are folks in this world who should just not be married, and someone with your opinion of it should not. That's not a criticism by the way - one of my best friends is single and is very happy. I'm glad for him. There are lots of reasons marriages fail. But your characterization of women as essentially gold-diggers and leaches off of men is wildly inaccurate - that marriage has some how been reduced to legal agreements and financial data. Sorry that seems to have been your only experience, but if you knew more people with good marriages, you'd see how it's not like that at all.
08-20-2008, 09:20 PM
#157
Team Owner
I could learn.
08-20-2008, 09:32 PM
#158
Old Man Yelling at Clouds
The only purpose for marriage, in my opinion, is serving as an insurance policy for your family. Not for you, but for your wife and kids. It takes sacrifice and does not gaurantee that your S/O will not either cheat on you or take advantage of you. You simply cannot assume that it will sustain inevitably or not change significantly from day one.
Not to argue with you Amis - again you are entitled to your opinion.
08-20-2008, 10:12 PM
#159
Registered but harmless
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BTW, my wife has been stuck with me for 13+ years- she should have gotten a prenup!
Congrats, and best of luck!
08-21-2008, 02:49 AM
#160
But your characterization of women as essentially gold-diggers and leaches off of men is wildly inaccurate - that marriage has some how been reduced to legal agreements and financial data. Sorry that seems to have been your only experience, but if you knew more people with good marriages, you'd see how it's not like that at all.
My opinion about the utility of marriage for women transcends the intangible or immaterial benefits any one man may receive from a marriage.
It is a fact that there is a significant slant, a different but equitable interest, in marriage for women that does not exist for men.
Recognizing that step does not mean that marriage is ideally a woeful prospect. Unfortunately, it is my belief that due to the social and legal environment with which we live, that marriage is not a simple matter of blind faith.