Engagement/Marriage
08-20-2008, 11:59 AM
#81
You keep posting studies and statistics. The thing is, relationships (whether it be romantic or just friendships) are not based only on logic or studies....they involve people who have EMOTIONS. It makes a world of difference when you stop looking at numbers and think of it in terms of living beings.
Emotions aren't an excuse to ignore reality.
08-20-2008, 12:03 PM
#82
OMG!!! A relationship...err..I mean, marriage involves work??? Sh*t.
Every relationship of any kind (family, friendship, relationship) evolves and goes through ups and downs. Do you really think that's a shocking statement? Maybe you just run when that time comes, so you think that news should surprise us.
08-20-2008, 12:08 PM
#83
Take a nap. 
I didn't have a divorce attorney. I didn't want his things. (And yes, he had plenty to take.) See, the thing is, I married someone I not only loved, but liked and respected. That didn't change when we decided not to continue living our lives together. And because he also married someone he respected and trusted, he didn't get screwed over. No prenup, no attorneys, no battles. He kept his, I kept mine, the things we acquired together over the years were divided equitably with NO arguing, because we were both fair-minded in our approach.
Why is it so hard for women to accept the fact that they are looked at more favorably in court?
08-20-2008, 12:11 PM
#84
GEEZER
Hilarious.
I have been told I am dumb, dense, and a little man in this thread by a 25 year old SINGLE relationship genius.
Like I said, just because you suck at relationships, does not mean we all do.
My proof is almost 12 years of HAPPY marriage. What is yours? Statistics...yea that will keep ya warm and loved on a winters night.
Now, go ahead and call me some more names so you can feel better about yourself. 
I have been told I am dumb, dense, and a little man in this thread by a 25 year old SINGLE relationship genius.
Like I said, just because you suck at relationships, does not mean we all do.
My proof is almost 12 years of HAPPY marriage. What is yours? Statistics...yea that will keep ya warm and loved on a winters night.
Now, go ahead and call me some more names so you can feel better about yourself.
08-20-2008, 12:11 PM
#85
A relationship shouldn't involve work? Ahhh...so every thing of every day should be picture perfect, revolve around only you and what is happening only in this second. THAT sounds more like the Disney crap you were talking about before. Do you not call your friends to go out? Do you make compromises on where you go to eat sometimes, or do you just drop them when it's not all about you? Relationships involve two people, there's bound to be some work involved in keeping BOTH people happy (compromise, communication, attention, etc)....work.
Truth is, bumps in the road don't end relationships on their own. If two people want to make it through a low-point in life, whether it be illness, a difference of opinion, lack of comprise, job stress, financial issues, children, poor communication, family -- it can be done if they WANT it to. If a resolution can't be reach or if they just aren't willing to give it a go, then I agree, there's no point in staying in a life that you are unhappy with! Why waste your time on any relationship you're not interested in. But I'd bet you that a lot of marriages end only because it is a faster, easier, more convenient way to just not bother putting effort into who and what is important to you, not because of ONLY the issues themselves.
Truth is, bumps in the road don't end relationships on their own. If two people want to make it through a low-point in life, whether it be illness, a difference of opinion, lack of comprise, job stress, financial issues, children, poor communication, family -- it can be done if they WANT it to. If a resolution can't be reach or if they just aren't willing to give it a go, then I agree, there's no point in staying in a life that you are unhappy with! Why waste your time on any relationship you're not interested in. But I'd bet you that a lot of marriages end only because it is a faster, easier, more convenient way to just not bother putting effort into who and what is important to you, not because of ONLY the issues themselves.
08-20-2008, 12:16 PM
#86
Earth-bound misfit
Amis-
Really, I shouldn't even bother arguing with you about your jaded viewpoints. So approximately 50% fail? That means 50% succeed. Is the glass half empty or half full? It's a matter of perspective. Truthfully, the only person your cynicism affects is you when it helps you to keep people at arm's length. That is, of course, your prerogative.
The thing that's chapping me a bit is something that also doesn't actually affect me. (So really it shouldn't chap, but I own that I'm an empathetic person, and a woman, so there it is.) The point. This guy came in here looking for advice on WHEN to get married, not WHETHER. You're in here spewing distaste for the institution. We get it. You'll never ever ever ever marry. From the things you've posted in the past, I 100% agree with you - don't ever get married. It's clearly not a good choice for you.
BUT. Maybe it is for this guy. Maybe he loves his girl enough to take that chance and to experience the pitfalls and the beauty. Why do you try so hard to talk him out of it? Do you really think he'll be a happier man if he goes to his girl and says "sorry babe, but this guy on the net convinced me that marriage is a load of bs, so no deal?" Then she dumps him and he's without the girl who he has said completes him. I don't see the benefit of trying to convince him he's making a mistake, that's all.
Really, I shouldn't even bother arguing with you about your jaded viewpoints. So approximately 50% fail? That means 50% succeed. Is the glass half empty or half full? It's a matter of perspective. Truthfully, the only person your cynicism affects is you when it helps you to keep people at arm's length. That is, of course, your prerogative.
The thing that's chapping me a bit is something that also doesn't actually affect me. (So really it shouldn't chap, but I own that I'm an empathetic person, and a woman, so there it is.) The point. This guy came in here looking for advice on WHEN to get married, not WHETHER. You're in here spewing distaste for the institution. We get it. You'll never ever ever ever marry. From the things you've posted in the past, I 100% agree with you - don't ever get married. It's clearly not a good choice for you.
BUT. Maybe it is for this guy. Maybe he loves his girl enough to take that chance and to experience the pitfalls and the beauty. Why do you try so hard to talk him out of it? Do you really think he'll be a happier man if he goes to his girl and says "sorry babe, but this guy on the net convinced me that marriage is a load of bs, so no deal?" Then she dumps him and he's without the girl who he has said completes him. I don't see the benefit of trying to convince him he's making a mistake, that's all.
08-20-2008, 12:21 PM
#87
Earth-bound misfit
I never once said "all" - I don't need "all" to make a decision about something. Enough women CAN be, given the right circumstances (like divorce) to turn me off to marriage in the first place.
Come with
That's great that that worked for you but you could have had more. Like I said it's your right and just because you didn't exercise it does not mean that the courts would not have favored your requests more than his. It's just a fact.
Why is it so hard for women to accept the fact that they are looked at more favorably in court?
Come with
That's great that that worked for you but you could have had more. Like I said it's your right and just because you didn't exercise it does not mean that the courts would not have favored your requests more than his. It's just a fact.
Why is it so hard for women to accept the fact that they are looked at more favorably in court?
Consider it a pointed effort not to be part of the problem. I don't consider it my right to take his money or belongings. We were partners for 13 years, now we're not. That's it.
08-20-2008, 12:21 PM
#88
08-20-2008, 12:27 PM
#89
GEEZER
08-20-2008, 12:29 PM
#90
Hilarious.
I have been told I am dumb, dense, and a little man in this thread by a 25 year old SINGLE relationship genius.
Like I said, just because you suck at relationships, does not mean we all do.
My proof is almost 12 years of HAPPY marriage. What is yours? Statistics...yea that will keep ya warm and loved on a winters night.
Now, go ahead and call me some more names so you can feel better about yourself.
I have been told I am dumb, dense, and a little man in this thread by a 25 year old SINGLE relationship genius.
Like I said, just because you suck at relationships, does not mean we all do.
My proof is almost 12 years of HAPPY marriage. What is yours? Statistics...yea that will keep ya warm and loved on a winters night.
Now, go ahead and call me some more names so you can feel better about yourself.
Believe it or not I'm actually in a loving relationship now. Am I looking to get married? Nope! I'm actually very good in relationships (assuming a girl can keep me interested long enough for me to consider monogamy).
Just because I haven't signed a marriage certificate doesn't make you any better than me.
Your "proof" that one individual can be happy in a marriage does not a trend make. Just like one man falling from a 16-story building does not mean it's a good idea for all of us to consider taking that leap.
And for the record, you started with the name calling. I know you lost some brain cells in the 80s and it's difficult for you to think very clearly these days. But at least try.
08-20-2008, 12:31 PM
#92
GEEZER
Oh..and for the OP. If you love the woman...and she loves you...get married if ya want to. marriage rocks with the right person, I was lucky and found the right person. There are no guarantee's in life, that is what makes it worth living. Marriage does take work, compromise and understanding...but the result of it is HAPPINESS!
08-20-2008, 12:32 PM
#93
Go Giants
08-20-2008, 12:33 PM
#94
GEEZER
08-20-2008, 12:33 PM
#95
A relationship shouldn't involve work? Ahhh...so every thing of every day should be picture perfect, revolve around only you and what is happening only in this second. THAT sounds more like the Disney crap you were talking about before. Do you not call your friends to go out? Do you make compromises on where you go to eat sometimes, or do you just drop them when it's not all about you? Relationships involve two people, there's bound to be some work involved in keeping BOTH people happy (compromise, communication, attention, etc)....work.
I was making a general point that is true. The harder you have to work to keep a relationship alive the less likely it is to exist. Period. You don't have to jump into hyperbole to denounce that. It's a fact of human nature.
Truth is, bumps in the road don't end relationships on their own. If two people want to make it through a low-point in life, whether it be illness, a difference of opinion, lack of comprise, job stress, financial issues, children, poor communication, family -- it can be done if they WANT it to. If a resolution can't be reach or if they just aren't willing to give it a go, then I agree, there's no point in staying in a life that you are unhappy with! Why waste your time on any relationship you're not interested in. But I'd bet you that a lot of marriages end only because it is a faster, easier, more convenient way to just not bother putting effort into who and what is important to you, not because of ONLY the issues themselves.
Work and happiness are inversely related. The more work, the harder a relationship is and vice versa.
Are you just arguing with me to argue or what?
08-20-2008, 12:36 PM
#97
Awesome....Says the guy who has talked about nothing in previous threads but needing a woman as interested in sex 5 times a day (and who better be the best at it), or he's on the prowl for someone else.
This is what I don't understand about your mentality. Why is a relationship all about what one person needs to do in order to keep the other happy? It's a partnership, along with just being able to be happy as an individual, as well as a couple. Why should one person have to keep things interesting for only you. Where do you come in?
08-20-2008, 12:37 PM
#98
That was your first post.
08-20-2008, 12:37 PM
#99
Earth-bound misfit
PSSSTT!!!! Hey Amis!!! WILL YOU MARRY ME??
08-20-2008, 12:40 PM
#100
Go Giants
Wow, Amis, you are getting a lashing....I say all power to you my friend... 
08-20-2008, 12:42 PM
#101
Sex isn't difficult to get. And she doesn't have to spend the night, either.
This is what I don't understand about your mentality. Why is a relationship all about what one person needs to do in order to keep the other happy? It's a partnership, along with just being able to be happy as an individual, as well as a couple. Why should one person have to keep things interesting for only you. Where do you come in?
I don't need a woman to advance my career. Or workout for me. Or eat better for me. Or do my laundry, or iron my shirts, or wipe my ass.
I've said it plenty of times and I'll say it again: If a girl doesn't like me she can go home
That doesn't mean I'm not friendly (at least, if she deserves it) or I don't make time for her. I just don't expect nor want a mommy.
08-20-2008, 12:44 PM
#102
The funny part is that I don't communicate any of this to women I'm interested in.
Because they wouldn't date me if I did.
Which is interesting because it reveals an interesting dynamic.You guys are all privvy to stuff girls I actually date don't get to hear.
08-20-2008, 12:47 PM
#104
I agree.
As I said, of course there comes a point when there's no point in staying in a relationship that neither person gets enjoyment out of. My point was that you seem to think we're all naive in thinking relationships are all about happiness 100% of the time, and that we'll somehow be amazed to hear that some marriages have issues.
By work, I mean things like open and honest communication, compromise, etc. Some people don't need to work at it at all, as they've found someone truly compatible, with personalities, desires, goals, styles, and interests that mesh....Other people need to work at it.
Mostly, yeah. AZ is all about entertainment to me, and I enjoy reading your statistics (better find myself that attorney real soon).
As I said, of course there comes a point when there's no point in staying in a relationship that neither person gets enjoyment out of. My point was that you seem to think we're all naive in thinking relationships are all about happiness 100% of the time, and that we'll somehow be amazed to hear that some marriages have issues.
By work, I mean things like open and honest communication, compromise, etc. Some people don't need to work at it at all, as they've found someone truly compatible, with personalities, desires, goals, styles, and interests that mesh....Other people need to work at it.
Mostly, yeah. AZ is all about entertainment to me, and I enjoy reading your statistics (better find myself that attorney real soon).
08-20-2008, 12:48 PM
#105
Earth-bound misfit
08-20-2008, 12:50 PM
#106
Earth-bound misfit
08-20-2008, 12:52 PM
#107
Why not just live the life of a one-night stand kinda guy until your old age? Because, IMO, if you don't want to live together, get married, or have children, you'll come to an age where the women you date might be. Why not be upfront from the get-go and let her find the right person for her, while you continue dating the right kind of people for you?
08-20-2008, 12:55 PM
#109
Earth-bound misfit
08-20-2008, 01:05 PM
#110
GEEZER
if I hurt your feelings.
08-20-2008, 01:06 PM
#111
I'm Down Right Fierce!
Thread Starter
^ Well Amis, I actually took the time to read all of your posts and while I do think its neat that you took the time to post actual statistics I don't think "women" and "feminsim" are the necessarily the primary factors in the high divorce rates.
If anything I think its a combination of: 1. changing morality, 2. economics, 3. social views of relationships.
We're essentially encouraging a generation of promiscuity and encouraging non commital relationships, so what can we expect?
What people fail to understand is that MARRIAGE IS HARD. Life doesn't get easier when you get married; rather I personally believe it gets harder. You no longer have independence; you now have another person that you need to care/worry for, and who will care for and worry about you. Add children to that formula and it gets harder I imagine.
The questions people need to face is whether in spite of the hardships of marriage, does your love for your SO outweighs those hardships? Does your love outweigh those hardships so much that you'd be willing to work through anything that comes your way?
For me personally, I know being married to my GF will be hard - we'll both be working 10-12 hour days as starting attorneys, whatever time we spend together after that work day will be our "left overs" since we'll be tired, and she and I both have character flaws (we all do, we just need to admit it).
But for me personally, and for Ravi and others on here, we can say that despite the hardships of marriage that we would not give up being with the SO that we love more than ourselves. Sure there will be bad days I'm sure; but I can rest assured knowing that for the most part we will work through those problems to the best of our abilities. I can honestly say that I am happiest when I'm with my GF; even if we're doing some stupid mundane thing like watching TV together, the comfort and peace I feel by just having her next to me is worth more to me than any excitement I'd get from banging some random hot chick I meet at a bar/club.
I don't think your viewpoints are necessarily wrong - I'm sure there are gold digging women out there using marriage as a method to become financially secure. But I'm certain that there are just as many men who prey on rich cougars with the same intent.
High divorce rates: Its not just because of women, its not just because men, its because of people. Times have changed, morality has changed, people have changed.
Marriage isn't for everyone and I'm not going to convince you that its for you. In fact from what I understand from your posts, I believe that marriage isn't for you and I respect that. And to be honest, theres absolutely nothing wrong with that; you do what makes you happy. I'm not even going to say "try it" because we don't have to try things in order to know that we won't like it - my GF asks me to try going to watch a ballet with her and her friends to which I always give an emphatic "hell no." I don't have to watch a ballet in person to know that I'll hate it.
All I will say, is that I was in the same boat as you Amis - if you had spoken to me 4 years ago, I would've told you I'm never getting married and that there was no point to it. But all that changed after I met my current GF; now I can truly say that nothing in my life compares to being with her.
If anything I think its a combination of: 1. changing morality, 2. economics, 3. social views of relationships.
We're essentially encouraging a generation of promiscuity and encouraging non commital relationships, so what can we expect?
What people fail to understand is that MARRIAGE IS HARD. Life doesn't get easier when you get married; rather I personally believe it gets harder. You no longer have independence; you now have another person that you need to care/worry for, and who will care for and worry about you. Add children to that formula and it gets harder I imagine.
The questions people need to face is whether in spite of the hardships of marriage, does your love for your SO outweighs those hardships? Does your love outweigh those hardships so much that you'd be willing to work through anything that comes your way?
For me personally, I know being married to my GF will be hard - we'll both be working 10-12 hour days as starting attorneys, whatever time we spend together after that work day will be our "left overs" since we'll be tired, and she and I both have character flaws (we all do, we just need to admit it).
But for me personally, and for Ravi and others on here, we can say that despite the hardships of marriage that we would not give up being with the SO that we love more than ourselves. Sure there will be bad days I'm sure; but I can rest assured knowing that for the most part we will work through those problems to the best of our abilities. I can honestly say that I am happiest when I'm with my GF; even if we're doing some stupid mundane thing like watching TV together, the comfort and peace I feel by just having her next to me is worth more to me than any excitement I'd get from banging some random hot chick I meet at a bar/club.
I don't think your viewpoints are necessarily wrong - I'm sure there are gold digging women out there using marriage as a method to become financially secure. But I'm certain that there are just as many men who prey on rich cougars with the same intent.
High divorce rates: Its not just because of women, its not just because men, its because of people. Times have changed, morality has changed, people have changed.
Marriage isn't for everyone and I'm not going to convince you that its for you. In fact from what I understand from your posts, I believe that marriage isn't for you and I respect that. And to be honest, theres absolutely nothing wrong with that; you do what makes you happy. I'm not even going to say "try it" because we don't have to try things in order to know that we won't like it - my GF asks me to try going to watch a ballet with her and her friends to which I always give an emphatic "hell no." I don't have to watch a ballet in person to know that I'll hate it.
All I will say, is that I was in the same boat as you Amis - if you had spoken to me 4 years ago, I would've told you I'm never getting married and that there was no point to it. But all that changed after I met my current GF; now I can truly say that nothing in my life compares to being with her.
08-20-2008, 01:11 PM
#112
Earth-bound misfit
Nicely put BD.
08-20-2008, 01:19 PM
#113
Registered but harmless
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Age: 59
Posts: 14,845
Received 1,106 Likes
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764 Posts
Oh, and my wife ordered me to tell you that marriage is good.
08-20-2008, 01:54 PM
#114
But you do realize that that specific benefit does not outweigh the fact that men (in general) have less discretionary income once they are married, right? So while they receive a tax benefit, what good is it if they have less money to spend on balance anyway?
08-20-2008, 02:11 PM
#115
^ Well Amis, I actually took the time to read all of your posts and while I do think its neat that you took the time to post actual statistics I don't think "women" and "feminsim" are the necessarily the primary factors in the high divorce rates.
If anything I think its a combination of: 1. changing morality, 2. economics, 3. social views of relationships.
If anything I think its a combination of: 1. changing morality, 2. economics, 3. social views of relationships.
What people fail to understand is that MARRIAGE IS HARD. Life doesn't get easier when you get married; rather I personally believe it gets harder. You no longer have independence; you now have another person that you need to care/worry for, and who will care for and worry about you. Add children to that formula and it gets harder I imagine.
The questions people need to face is whether in spite of the hardships of marriage, does your love for your SO outweighs those hardships? Does your love outweigh those hardships so much that you'd be willing to work through anything that comes your way?
For me personally, I know being married to my GF will be hard - we'll both be working 10-12 hour days as starting attorneys, whatever time we spend together after that work day will be our "left overs" since we'll be tired, and she and I both have character flaws (we all do, we just need to admit it).
But for me personally, and for Ravi and others on here, we can say that despite the hardships of marriage that we would not give up being with the SO that we love more than ourselves.
Sure there will be bad days I'm sure; but I can rest assured knowing that for the most part we will work through those problems to the best of our abilities. I can honestly say that I am happiest when I'm with my GF; even if we're doing some stupid mundane thing like watching TV together, the comfort and peace I feel by just having her next to me is worth more to me than any excitement I'd get from banging some random hot chick I meet at a bar/club.
I don't think your viewpoints are necessarily wrong - I'm sure there are gold digging women out there using marriage as a method to become financially secure. But I'm certain that there are just as many men who prey on rich cougars with the same intent.
High divorce rates: Its not just because of women, its not just because men, its because of people. Times have changed, morality has changed, people have changed.
Marriage isn't for everyone and I'm not going to convince you that its for you. In fact from what I understand from your posts, I believe that marriage isn't for you and I respect that. And to be honest, theres absolutely nothing wrong with that; you do what makes you happy. I'm not even going to say "try it" because we don't have to try things in order to know that we won't like it - my GF asks me to try going to watch a ballet with her and her friends to which I always give an emphatic "hell no." I don't have to watch a ballet in person to know that I'll hate it.
All I will say, is that I was in the same boat as you Amis - if you had spoken to me 4 years ago, I would've told you I'm never getting married and that there was no point to it. But all that changed after I met my current GF; now I can truly say that nothing in my life compares to being with her.
Look if you need to get married that badly, at least take the time to get educated about your options and what exactly may happen. You're going to be an attorney for Christ's sake! Get a prenup!
08-20-2008, 02:23 PM
#116
When my lawyer friend got married (traditional wedding), they both read the official, legal statements claiming no lawful reason why they should not be able to wed, blahblah, blah, blah, as their vows. Literally, they just read a legal declaration, claiming there was nothing binding that should prevent their marriage. It was a very touching ceremony.
08-20-2008, 02:59 PM
#117
All of those, to one degree or another, are a function of liberal or "progressive" movements that were altered as a consequence of feminism and the breakdown of "patriarchal dominance" - so no, I don't believe it's a coincidence that all of these factors grew out of the latter half of the 20th century.
So to me, those stats are taken with a grain of salt. You can either base your life and your decisions on them, or take them in, know they are there, and move on with life with your own goals and meaning.
Lots of people stick around in unhappy situations, get married for the wrong reasons, certain cultures feel forced or pushed into marriage, and some barely know who they were dating and chose to get married without knowing enough about their spouse. That's not a sign of the times, that's always happened and always will, in spite of the marriages that do work.
). You said it yourself....marriages are harder to get out of. That probably also means it takes more commitment to be in one.
08-20-2008, 03:06 PM
#118
This entire thread is scaring the hell out of me. Really.
Terry
Terry
08-20-2008, 03:13 PM
#119
Earth-bound misfit
It's making me want to call up my BF, tell him to stay in CO, and bury my head under my couch cushion for the foreseeable future. Or maybe I should just put it in my oven...
Love the new Av, pessimist-boy.
Love the new Av, pessimist-boy.
08-20-2008, 03:17 PM
#120
Oh, and I vote oven.....you should be in the kitchen, after all.