When is it running a red light?
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Suzuka Master
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: SoCal
When is it running a red light?
I got in an argument with a friend about this.
My view:
As long as you have entered the intersection before the light is red you are not running a red light. Exemptions is if there is not enough room for you to cross the intersection, i.e. traffic then its considered blocking an intersection or something.
Freinds view:
You have to completely cross the intersection before the light turns red.
My view:
As long as you have entered the intersection before the light is red you are not running a red light. Exemptions is if there is not enough room for you to cross the intersection, i.e. traffic then its considered blocking an intersection or something.
Freinds view:
You have to completely cross the intersection before the light turns red.
If your front tires have rolled over the first crosswalk line before the light turns red, you're good. If the light turns red and you were still behind the crosswalk line, then proceed to enter the intersection... violation.
Thread Starter
Suzuka Master
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: SoCal
see my searches online came with both answers too, I found on that was posted on yahoo answers, and one guy who was a cop answered backing my friends claim, and a defense attorney also answered backing my claim.
Looking through the DMV handbook it doesnt have this, or I didnt look closely enough.
Looking through the DMV handbook it doesnt have this, or I didnt look closely enough.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,071
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From: Long Island, NY
With the red light cameras by me as long as you don't cross the line while it is red, it doesn't flash. I have seen many cross the line while still yellow and then the light turns red and it doesn't flash. Also at this intersection when you make a right on red you have to come to a complete stop to avoid a ticket. 
My sister got a ticket and they show you 3 pictures. When you cross the line while red, cross the middle of the intersection, and when you pass the intersection. It also lets you watch a video of your self going through it. :detective
My sister got a ticket and they show you 3 pictures. When you cross the line while red, cross the middle of the intersection, and when you pass the intersection. It also lets you watch a video of your self going through it. :detective
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I was told this by a few friends that are NYPD cops. Luckily I dont have to deal with those dumbass cameras here but whenever I go to NY Im extra careful.
That's how it's done here, at least.
It's really a race between the light and your tires. If your tires roll over the solid white stop line before the light turns red, then you are good.
Thread Starter
Suzuka Master
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,012
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From: SoCal
can anyone find any actual code that says this, if I tell him people on my forum said this... that wont work lol. I tried looking but couldnt come up with anything.
edit: but its good to know I'm right
edit: but its good to know I'm right
To me.....When you speed up on a yellow to make it. Yellow means slow down, doesn't mean accelerate.
But I do it too sometimes so yeah.......
Your friend is right for the most part. Red light cameras are setup only to trigger a ticket if you pass a certain line after the crosswalk & the light turns red. That line could be in the middle or X amount of feet after the crosswalk.
But I do it too sometimes so yeah.......
Your friend is right for the most part. Red light cameras are setup only to trigger a ticket if you pass a certain line after the crosswalk & the light turns red. That line could be in the middle or X amount of feet after the crosswalk.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,213
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From: Portland, Oregon
Around here, red light camera sensor strips are just before the first crosswalk line so as long as you're in the intersection before the light turns red, you're fine. I've spoken to several cops about this and they say the same thing.
From what I was told by a Local Police Officer, he told me as long as your car is in the intersection before the light turns red, you have not run the light. But he did say the whole vehicle had to be in the intersection.
Last edited by OperationDarkie; Sep 18, 2011 at 09:07 PM.
Senior Moderator
Joined: May 2000
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From: Brooklyn, NY USA
The red light camera's in NY do not go off if someone is already in the intersection when the light turns red. Only if someone crossed over the intersection after the light turns red does the camera take a picture of the offending car.
Put that into perspective...how does that tie into your views?
Put that into perspective...how does that tie into your views?
Last edited by Shoofin; Sep 18, 2011 at 09:15 PM.
I've seen red light camera flashes go off here plenty of times when someone has already crossed the intersection and well away from it. Maybe it randomly goes off sometimes too
From what I always thought, if your whole car is in the intersection when it turns red, you are not running the red light.
From what I always thought, if your whole car is in the intersection when it turns red, you are not running the red light.
Senior Moderator
Joined: Dec 2010
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From: Austin, TX
I don't think going off an array of red light camera flashes that happen in the blink of an eye in front of you will give us a technically correct answer. Can no one find a local Transportation Code?
21453.(a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).
(b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making that turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle that has approached or is approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard to the driver, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that vehicle until the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.
(c) A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown.
(d) Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian control signal as provided in Section 21456, a pedestrian facing a steady circular red or red arrow signal shall not enter the roadway.
(b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making that turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle that has approached or is approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard to the driver, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that vehicle until the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.
(c) A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown.
(d) Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian control signal as provided in Section 21456, a pedestrian facing a steady circular red or red arrow signal shall not enter the roadway.
Registered Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 8,342
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From: Suburb of Manassas, VA
In Virginia, you can't pass through a controlled intersection on a yellow light, much less a red light, unless you have committed to the intersection. I know this sounds a little off but that is what the law was when I received my learner's permit (at 14 years, 9 months) and my driver's license (at 15). By committed this means that if you can safely stop when the light turns yellow you must, otherwise you should proceed through the intersection.
The only times you can run a red light that I know of are; 1) to avoid an accident, 2) to allow free and safe passage of emergency vehicles.
The only times you can run a red light that I know of are; 1) to avoid an accident, 2) to allow free and safe passage of emergency vehicles.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,079
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From: Dodge City, KS
This might be something that varies from place to place. I have talked to several cops here and they all have said that you must be through the intersection before it turns red or it's a violation. They also said it is a judgement call. The duration of the yellow lights vary around here. If they judge that you had sufficient time to stop on the yellow and still proceed with the light turning red while in the intersection, they will give you a ticket.
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,068
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From: NYC
dont mess with red lights in NYC - you could get a second ticket for blocking the box too.
And P.S., cops are very quick to snipe down cars at busy intersections. the "blocking the box" ticket, which is relatively new, has become the easiest way for traffic cops to fill their quota.
And P.S., cops are very quick to snipe down cars at busy intersections. the "blocking the box" ticket, which is relatively new, has become the easiest way for traffic cops to fill their quota.
Senior Moderator
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 31,897
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From: Austin, TX
The Texas Transportation Code is surprisingly uninformative about this:
(d)An operator of a vehicle facing only a steady red signal shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. A vehicle that is not turning shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown. After stopping, standing until the intersection may be entered safely, and yielding right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully in an adjacent crosswalk and other traffic lawfully using the intersection, the operator may:
(1)turn right; or
(2)turn left, if the intersecting streets are both one-way streets and a left turn is permissible.
(e)An operator of a vehicle facing a steady yellow signal is warned by that signal that:
(1)movement authorized by a green signal is being terminated; or
(2)a red signal is to be given.
I would deduce from this that it is only running a red light if you are able to safely stop before entering the intersection and refuse to do so.
Originally Posted by Texas Transportation Code, Title 7, Subtitle C, Chapter 544.007
(d)An operator of a vehicle facing only a steady red signal shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. A vehicle that is not turning shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown. After stopping, standing until the intersection may be entered safely, and yielding right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully in an adjacent crosswalk and other traffic lawfully using the intersection, the operator may:
(1)turn right; or
(2)turn left, if the intersecting streets are both one-way streets and a left turn is permissible.
(e)An operator of a vehicle facing a steady yellow signal is warned by that signal that:
(1)movement authorized by a green signal is being terminated; or
(2)a red signal is to be given.
dont mess with red lights in NYC - you could get a second ticket for blocking the box too.
And P.S., cops are very quick to snipe down cars at busy intersections. the "blocking the box" ticket, which is relatively new, has become the easiest way for traffic cops to fill their quota.
And P.S., cops are very quick to snipe down cars at busy intersections. the "blocking the box" ticket, which is relatively new, has become the easiest way for traffic cops to fill their quota.
Oh, and regarding the topic, I'm with your friend. From what I know around here, if you're in the intersection at any point during the red, you can get a ticket. Yellow means slow down, not accelerate, so if you are in the intersection when it goes red, TS...
AZ Community Team
Joined: May 2007
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From: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
In my mind it's very simple: If you enter the intersection (i.e. cross the stop line) after the light has turned red, you've run the red light.
How could it be otherwise? You are required to stop by the red light. If it's not red when you reach the stop line, why would you get a ticket?
As far as when the traffic camera's flash, I think that's a red herring. Red light cameras have been rigged to generate revenue to the point that law and common sense have little to to with when they go off.
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,800
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From: Japan
You guys have it all wrong. Just come over here and experience this:
When a light turns yellow, you accelerate. Once red, you go through the intersection riding your brakes so the car behind you doesn't follow.
Moral of the story? You must wait 3 to 5 seconds here on a green light, or else risk a T-boning you did not want.
When a light turns yellow, you accelerate. Once red, you go through the intersection riding your brakes so the car behind you doesn't follow.
Moral of the story? You must wait 3 to 5 seconds here on a green light, or else risk a T-boning you did not want.
When I was in NY (Long Island) a few weeks ago there were a few intersections where the camera would flash when the light was yellow.
Thread Starter
Suzuka Master
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,012
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From: SoCal
I dunno I'm still iffy on this,
I mean it doesnt happen to me often, I'm usually through before the light turns red or I stop. But occasionally I'm in the intersection when the light hits red. I just wanna know for arguments sake.
I mean it doesnt happen to me often, I'm usually through before the light turns red or I stop. But occasionally I'm in the intersection when the light hits red. I just wanna know for arguments sake.
Senior Moderator
Joined: Dec 2010
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From: Austin, TX
I think of it like this. When the light is green, you can enter the intersection, i.e. cross the stop line. When the light is yellow, as defined by the Texas code, the movement authorized by a green signal is being terminated. It hasn't been terminated yet, so you may still enter the intersection. Once the light turns red you may not cross the stop line, like the code says. If you have a yellow and cannot cross the line before the light turns red, you need to stop.
Pinky all stinky
Joined: Jul 2003
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i was thinking the same thing when i read that. i've seen the Don't Block the Box sign for quite some time in the city. definitely not something that just came out.
Registered Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 8,342
Likes: 163
From: Suburb of Manassas, VA
In 1987, I deliberately ran through a red light. I was towing a 19' boat and had four people in the car. The boat and trailer weighed over 2600 pounds and I was not about to slam on the brakes and risk jackknifing. So I laid on the horn as I went through the light and all was well (very light traffic on that road on Sunday mornings).
Last edited by SouthernBoy; Sep 20, 2011 at 07:17 AM.
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 52,768
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From: Phoenix, AZ
OP:
http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21453.htm
I can't seem to find the California definition of an "intersection" but here in AZ the actual intersection begins at the point of intersection of the curb of the two roads (often much farther out than the crosswalk). If there are red light cameras, there often is a red line painted on the road (here) for photographic purposes that delineates the actual point of the intersection.
V C Section 21453 Circular Red or Red Arrow
Circular Red or Red Arrow
21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).
(b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making that turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle that has approached or is approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard to the driver, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that vehicle until the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.
(c) A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown.
(d) Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian control signal as provided in Section 21456, a pedestrian facing a steady circular red or red arrow signal shall not enter the roadway.
Amended Sec. 1, Ch. 14, Stats. 2001. Effective January 1, 2002.
Circular Red or Red Arrow
21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).
(b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making that turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle that has approached or is approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard to the driver, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that vehicle until the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.
(c) A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown.
(d) Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian control signal as provided in Section 21456, a pedestrian facing a steady circular red or red arrow signal shall not enter the roadway.
Amended Sec. 1, Ch. 14, Stats. 2001. Effective January 1, 2002.
I can't seem to find the California definition of an "intersection" but here in AZ the actual intersection begins at the point of intersection of the curb of the two roads (often much farther out than the crosswalk). If there are red light cameras, there often is a red line painted on the road (here) for photographic purposes that delineates the actual point of the intersection.
OP:
http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21453.htm
I can't seem to find the California definition of an "intersection" but here in AZ the actual intersection begins at the point of intersection of the curb of the two roads (often much farther out than the crosswalk). If there are red light cameras, there often is a red line painted on the road (here) for photographic purposes that delineates the actual point of the intersection.
http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21453.htm
I can't seem to find the California definition of an "intersection" but here in AZ the actual intersection begins at the point of intersection of the curb of the two roads (often much farther out than the crosswalk). If there are red light cameras, there often is a red line painted on the road (here) for photographic purposes that delineates the actual point of the intersection.
When I was in Israel I thought they had an ingenious idea for traffic lights. When the yellow light came on, it flashed two times before turning red. These flashes give the upcoming drivers warning that the light will be turning red. I think this method would greatly help prevent people from running red lights. 
Plus, here in L.A. they are getting rid of cameras at intersections.
Plus, here in L.A. they are getting rid of cameras at intersections.
