the other morning on my way to work the roads had a dust of snow on them and there was a 350z in the ditch

 

Want me to take pics tonight when the snow falls for the first time? I bet i can take pics of at least 3 SUVs in the ditch.

People just forget how to drive when it snows. Thats all. BUt ya can think what ya like. Oh and next time see what kind of tires he had on.

 

 

350z with stock tires go nowhere in the snow. They are summer tires. It's dangerous to drive the Z in those conditions. A FWD car with the same exact tires would also be dangerous.

With my Blizzak's, I was able to drive the Z in light snow the other day. It's not great, but it's drivable...

BTW, the Z has great weight distribution, LSD, Traction Control and Stability control. All help it's performance in the snow if set up with the right tires.

Again, FWD > RWD in the snow, but tires make a huge difference.

 

and showing the crashed Z with no story is retarted. I remember seeing a smashed up new TL on some site recently. Does that mean the TL is unsafe too because one got into an accident???

 

I don't see what the real discussion his here... FWD = :ghey: ... I won't make this mistake again next time.

 

was this directed at me?

 

Nope...it was just an extention of my rant aimed toward those piss and moan that Honda doesn't make RWD sedans. I should have separated that into a new paragraph so there wasn't confusion. Sorry.

 

ah...

 

I'm not pissing and moaning that Acura/Honda do not make (many) RWD cars, I could care less. My rant is that its not that hard to drive an RWD in inclement weather.

The point that other people raised, was that if they were to make an RWD sedan, it would increase their ability to compete in the luxury market.

 

I could care less too .. Honda has lost this repeat buyer with their dropping quality control (paint, tranny, rotors, leather, squeaks, engine idle, etc) .. until they get their quality control together .. who are about how their cars are driven ..

 

Actually....I think someone who lives in TEXAS which gets no snow and buys a FWD car and then complains about it is even MORE.... :ghey:

 

Just as long as your driving "On flat ground in the snow...", right?

 

*cough* OOOOPPPS *cough*

http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...hreadid=123446

 

No one said FWD was perfect...no car will save you from yourself.

 

I just read a little bit of the C/D article. I wonder where the hell all the torque steer came from????? My CL 6-Speed doesn't have any torque steer at all and I love the way the LSD grabs when you give it the gas in a turn.

 

I have no idea.....

Personally, I think the FWD blows in the snow compared to the RWD. It's such a great design to have excessive torque on the wheels that drive and steer at the same time. Pretty much guarantees that the front wheels will slip, and you can't steer.

Never understood that..... Sure in straight lines and slippery slopes, the FWD has some advantage, but all in all, I'd don't like it.

 

Which is the point I am trying to make...many people think FWD/AWD is the magic pill and they drive like idiots.

 

WOW…. You need to write a letter to all the major auto manufacturers and explain your findings.
It seems they ALL have been doing it wrong since the 1970’s.
Along with the MILLIONS of people who buy them every year for winter driving.

 

You're right--I am!

 

FWD is cheaper to manufacture, so that's the big push for it. I don't think anyone here can say that their CL is easy to drive in the snow. Come on!

People are swayed by stupid marketing. Why do you think they buy shit like ABS. It's the most useless thing on the planet. Tell me one time where you needed to crank on the brakes to swerve around something (when ABS is usefull). Now tell me how many times you cranked on the brakes, the ABS kicked in, and you slid through an intersection or into a curve. Without ABS, you would have stopped just fine using conventional braking techniques.

And why do people buy ABS then? You buy what you're convinced to buy. Doesn't make it right, just makes humans stupid creatures that are easily persuaded.

 

Wires,

ABS are a good thing, I do not expect you being able to modulate the brakes as good as ABS system!.

It seems, you a bit mis-informed. Most people in a Panic situation will lock the wheel and lose total control on steering. This why you NEED ABS!

 

I can say my CLS is easy to drive in the snow. I would also say that, all things being even (tires for instance), it is much more drivable than a RWD. No, that doesn't mean the RWD is impossible to drive, that you will die driving it or that it absolutely has to be put away for the winter - just that it provides better traction. This is, for the most part, because the weight of the car is over the wheels receiving the power. Steering a FWD car in the winter has never been a problem that I’ve experienced.

 

I didn't say I can modulate the brakes as good as ABS. What I said was 99% of the time, it is worse than a vehicle without ABS.

Go out on snow, crank on the brakes, and see how long it takes the car to stop. Repeat the test using hard pedal pressure (releasing a bit when the wheels slid, and re-apply). I guarantee that you'll stop in a 1/2 of the time.

ABS was made so you can crank on the brakes and swerve around objects. If you lock the wheels when braking, then you lose the steering (my point why FWD cars really blow in dry/wet/snow).

My point was, when have you ever used ABS, and found it usefull? All it does is place ignorance in the hands of the driver, and makes them stupider behind the wheel. Let's face it, if you really know how to drive offensively then you don't need ABS. All it does is place a bunch of drivers on the road that can no longer brake properly. They place all their "experience" in the hand of a computer that pulses the brake system for them. When that thing is pulsed off, the brakes aren't on, and that increases you're braking distance.

I've had one near miss with my car, and not so near with my truck because the stupid ABS "thought" it was doing a good job.

I find my CL pretty good in the snow (probably because of all that weight over the front end), but I could out drive anyone hear if it was RWD. Have you even cranked on the gas, spun the tires and managed to keep it straight (especially in a corner). Of course not. With a RWD you have more control, which is my point that it makes a superior auto.



Anywaaaayysss.... this is off topic. My point is just because the auto maker "TELLS YOU" that this is great, and sells a bunch of people on it, doesn't make it great. It just makes us a bunch of lemmings........

 

maybe fwd has an advantage when you are actually stuck or slipping... when you get stuck in snow with rwd, your done,... with fwd you can turn the wheels and then try a different direction.....?

 

WOW…You know EVERYTHING about cars.
I’ve give up trying to bestow any of my knowledge in your direction.

UNCLE….. I’m OUT !!!

Shawn S

 

Yeah I read this, the only truly negative review of a vehicle that garnered immense praise from even historically Acura-negative reviewers and I found it funny that basically he was upset that it didn't have RWD and used the article as his platform to rant against Acura's FWD/AWD preference.

Okay and...?

 

Wait, why? It's front wheel drive, not front wheel stop. All four wheels have brakes on both FWD and RWD cars and it is common knowledge that, if anything, RWD has less ability to get traction to move because of less weight over the drive wheels but when it comes to maneuvering while braking both are equal because on both the steering wheels are the front wheels...

Sounds like you might have confused yourself there.

 

Wires must be living in the anti-universe!

 

No, I'm not ranting against Acura's preference. I love my 6 speed CL-S. By far the nicest car I've ever owned. What I'm saying is I see where C/D is coming from, since I feel FWD has much more limitations than RWD.

 

Only if the front wheels aren't slipping (i.e in braking, or if you hit the gas and make them spin). Then you have 0 steering. At a dead stop, then yes, then OUR FWD drive has better traction. Not all FWD's are heavy pigs out front like ours. The CL really doesn't have a nice weight distribution, which really effects it's manouverability. But don't get me wrong, I've learned to live with it, and I still love the car. I'm just saying just because "WE'RE TOLD THINGS", just doesn't make true.

If that's the case, I have a 1000HP civic for sale.

 

Doesn't the CL has 62/38 weight distribution??? I thought I read somewhere that combination is optimal for a FWD car.

 

No, you are very mistaken. Only part of the benefit of ABS was the ability to continue to maneuver when under heavy braking. The primary reason is to reduce stopping distances, particularly in adverse conditions.

Once the tires lock stopping distances increase. In dry conditions it is possible to get the same stopping distances by proper modulation but it is very difficult. In adverse conditions it is nearly impossible. ABS does, and has been proven countless times, reduce stopping distances.

ABS brakes are evolved from aircraft implementations where the necessity to turn while braking is irrelevant. Also, ABS was used in F1 and CART before being outlawed. Between the use on aircraft and two of the fastest and most sophisticated racing series (not to mention countless tests on road cars), it is clear ABS is used to reduce stopping distances.

I suggest you go pull your ABS fuse and try some stopping tests and see what the results are.

 

You quoted the wrong post of mine. I think you wanted to quote the FWD/RWD one, right? Because the post you quoted was directed at the topic post content which is the review in C&D, not anyone's comments here.

 

Not so, please state why or evidence that FWD is less expensive. In fact, in some cases, it is more expensive. You are trying to package more into the same space. Additionally, the FWD transaxle is generally more expensive due to the size and space constraints.

 

Maybe they should have tested one with the 18" wheels and ES100s or the optional high-performance tire package available for the 6speed TLs. You know, since they're doing high performance testing on the car.

 

Anyways....

My point is that FWD doesn't make the car superior over RWD in the snow.

There are tons of RWD vehicles out there (SUV's, trucks, full size cars - cabs, police, etc, buses, etc etc etc.)

Not once have I seen a RWD vehicle totally incapaciated because of the weather, while a little civic ripped on by. I've driven Mustangs, full sized GM cars, trucks, and the CL in the snow. I can honestly say the only time the FWD has ever showed me any advantage is on icey slopes. Other than that, it has shown me nothing. I can't leave a light any better, it doesn't handle better, it doesn't turn better, etc.

On ice I've had the back of a RWD kick out when trying to leave a light. Well, I've had the front of my CL slide perfectly sideways under the same conditions. Personally, I like the fact the RWD still allowed me to steer. When the front of my CL is sliding into the next lane, then I'm screwed if someone is there.

I've driven my truck on the highway, and have had the back kick out during acceleration due to black ice. Not cool. Yet, I can drive on the highway and see a ton of FWD vehicles in the ditch. Probably due to poor driving, and probably due to the lack of pre-knowledge that something was going to happen. In that same situation, if I had spun the tires on the CL, I wouldn't have been able to steer, and I would have been one of those statistics in the ditch.

I'm saying that just because we are told things, doesn't make it fact.


And, many FWD are cheaper to manufacture. It requires less molds and casts to pop out a FWD over a RWD. The tranny, drivetrain, clutch housing, differential, etc come from a single casting. Not multiple pieces. Sure it's harder to shoe horn in, but at 1/4 million a pop for a mold, that costs bucks....

 

You don't get out much....do ya ???

 

No I do. I live the shitty Canadian Prairies, and have seen some of the nasty crap mother nature can generate. And for shits and giggles, I take my vehicle out to see how bad it really is.


I guess the thing is this:

FWD and RWD are comparable in any weather, period.

But, FWD gives unskilled drivers the extra edge in inclement weather. Doesn't make the car better, it just makes the shitty driver behind the wheel of a FWD better than a shitty driven behind the wheel of a RWD.

Let's face it, these "technological advancements" don't make you a better driver. It makes the car and the outcome of a situation more resistant to the ignorance and stupidity of the person behind the wheel.

Have you got out much? If you have then you'd notice the moron next to you at the light. You know, the guy with the gas planted on the ice spinning like crazy. The guy you want to yell out the window "heh dumb fuck, let of the gas and the tires would stick". FWD gives him an advantage. Not a better car, just stupid driver.

Now that you have ABS, to you ever brake normally, or do you crank the petal and hope for the best. The other day I was out driving (nice icey shit), and the moron in front of me decided to stop suddenly in our neighborhood. Cranking on the brakes resulted in the stupid vibration of the petal, and would have resulting in me licking his license plate. But, but releasing the brakes and firmly re-applying, I got a shorter stopping than the ABS would have gave me. If ABS was so superior, why didn't it just do that?




Oh yeh... another example is VSA. It's great, isn't it? Or is it? Have you ever used it (not the traction control portion, but the yaw correction portion). I was really disappointed my 6 speed didn't come with it (since my '01 did). Have I ever noticed that it's not there in the 16 months I've owned my '03. No. Did it ever help me by having it, I doubt it. Why did I want it? Just in case a situation happened where I wanted to protect myself from my own stupidity. My '01 was no better than my '03 (even though it had VSA). It was just more resistant to my stupidity.

 

62/38?!? Now that's nose heavy!!