nice....try the same with your 350z let us know how far you get.

 

When I bought the CLS in July I did some research as to the stock tires. What I found is that they are rated 'very poor' for snow/ice. As a number of people have already stated, FWD is not a magic bullet. A good all-season or winter tire makes a big difference (my preference is to go for a winter).

 

Actually, I have Blizzak WS-50's and a sand-bag in my trunk. It snowed an inch on Monday morning here. I got up the hill with no problems whatsoever.

Again, I was saying my problems with my CL were due to the tires. Tires are key.

I didn't say the CL is bad in the snow if properly equipped. It's just that FWD isn't all that some of you here make it out to me. If you really worry about snow, get AWD/4WD

AWD > FWD > RWD in the snow. But if you have a RWD that is properly equipped, it's acceptable.

 

Thanks for validating what I was saying... The CL stock tires (especially when they are fairly worn out) are not the greatest in the snow.

I remember every winter I read tons of threads here about people complaining how much of a dog the CL is in the snow. It comes down to the right tires

 

Right. No one is saying FWD is the be all to end all...it's just better in the conditions described. And you were dead on about the last paragraph. The thing is, for a lot of people "acceptable" isn't acceptable...

 

if i was given the choice to drive a AWD car with summer tires or a RWD car with snow tires, then i would pick the RWD car. WHY?

Cuz the AWD is pointless if you cant stop or turn on ice. Isnt that more important than climbing over a hill?

 

crazy...............I believe you avoided addressing the point I made earlier, so here it is again:

"actually BMW never intended their RWD cars to be used in snowey reigions. If you read the 3-series brocheur it clearly states: "and for our customers who live in snowey climates, we created the 330XI, 325XI," etc."

 

haah you really wanted the attention from me


Well i dont think i ever said that BMWs were made for the snow. My point was that you can go through winter fine with RWD and traction control.
Also im sure BMW said that since most of their RWD cars come with summer tires standard. Maybe it was a liablity thing. I dunno. What you want from me.

 

yeah, probably a lawsuit thing, your right. Just in case you hurt yourself with your RWD bimmer, and sue BMW, because the VDC didn't save you from yourself. Then they can always say, look what we wrote in the brocheur(sp?).

 

the WRX and 330xi guys trolling through here are probably laughing there @$$ off at this thread.

 

BMW, made in Germany, it snows in Germany, HELLA SHOW in Europe, they STICK to RWD, it CANNOT be that bad or ALL BMWs would be FWD or AWD by now.

How about RWD owners argue how dangerous it is to drive FWD in the dry.

 

I'm just quoting the literature. their RWD models were NEVER intended to be driven in when there is heavy snowfall. Most Germans drive their RWD bimmers in the summer, most if not all usually have a fwd car they use for the winter.

VDC is meant to prevent the car from fishtailing when driving at or near the limit, and not to tackle unplowed snow.

Ali G: "RESPECT!"

 

You guys are totally funny in your defense of Honda on this issue.

But I'll play devil's advocate here: why didnt Honda opt for FWD in the S2000? It doesnt share a platform with any other Honda (i.e.: Accord > TL). With FWD, it would have been more practical and still perform (a la ITR).

 

Car & Driver, Road and Track, Motor Trend all rave about the handling of the SVT Focus, which I currently drive. The weight balance is the same 63/37 as my wife's (yup, gave it to her!) CL-S. Maybe it's a weight issue since my SVT is only 2700 lbs. give or take.

 

Sure the SVT Focus handles great but can it outhandle a similarly equiped Miata (same weight)? I doubt it.

 

Weight helps, but the wheelbase is MUCH smaller than the CLS, which is a huge factor.

I believe 62/38 is "optimal" for FWD weight distribution.

 

I agree… Weight. + HP/TQ + suspension/diff.

Some of this boils down to "categorical" (black/white) thinking. For example, the Mini is a great handling car and the original Mini would give just about every car it ran into FITS up in the local twisties.

There are some "human factors" that come into play. Having just received the "issue" in question, there is some "beefing" about the new TL's torque steer (a comment about it even showing-up in third gear). When the HP goes up AT THE WHEELS, to allow for very good 0..60 and 1/4 mile times AND the car still weighs 3400+ lbs, there is going to be a limit to how much power the platform is going to put through though the front wheels, with a given geometry, before you get some "tug” at the wheel. There is going to be a subjective difference in how this is perceived and objects (CARS) don't scale up well. A 5000 lb, 500 hp FWD car -- when compared to a 2000 lb, 200 hp FWD car -- would be a pretty messed up daily driver without some pretty special engineering and scientific advances.

In my opinion -- it is a "weight" issue: keep going heavier with the power-to-weight staying equal to a rally-prepped Focus (or “street” Focus), and you are going to have some 100lb driver sweating to keep the car on the road.

Finally, RE: RWD, FWD, AWD --> cars need to sit on good rubber. If they don't have good rubber, they are going to suck in any condition. I'm still preplexed why they didn't try the summer tires for testing (wouldn't be the first time).

 

My SNOW SHOES are on and I’m ready to “play"
I just got done installing the BLIZZAK’s.


From Weather.com:

Severe Weather Alert from the National Weather Service
... FIRST SIGNIFICANT COASTAL STORM OF THE WINTER...

FROM THURSDAY NIGHT INTO FRIDAY NIGHT... TOTAL SNOW ACCUMULATIONS ARE EXPECTED TO BE UP TO SIX INCHES... WITH THE HIGHEST AMOUNTS IN THOSE LOCATIONS WHERE THE PRECIPITATION REMAINS ALL SNOW.
FURTHER TO THE NORTH AND WEST... UP INTO THE LEHIGH VALLEY... THE POCONOS AND NORTHERN NEW JERSEY... PRECIPITATION WILL REMAIN AS SNOW ON FRIDAY.
THE SECOND PART OF THIS SYSTEM WILL AFFECT THE REGION ON SATURDAY AND SUNDAY. THIS SECOND ROUND WILL BRING ADDITIONAL PRECIPITATION TO THE AREA... IN THE FORM OF SNOW WELL INLAND AND AS A COLD RAIN ELSEWHERE.

 

I wish we were getting that much snow. I really want to see what quattro can do
But i think we are only getting a inch of snow.

 

Because a roadster is not designed for winter driving. Have you noticed that only two of Honda's performance vehicles (the ones that should sit in the garage all winter) are RWD? Every other car, van or SUV is FWD (or front biased)...these cars are designed to handle bad weather driving.

 

If Honda was truly interested in making cars that were optimal for all weather conditions, they would have switched to an AWD format for ALL of their cars. In fact, their AWD system STILL has a FWD bias. When AWD is needed, the torque is applied to the rear wheels for a 50:50 distribution.

Nissan's is the complete opposite. They have an AWD version that has a RWD bias. It is naturally distributed as a 25% front, 75% rear and changes to a 50:50 ratio when needed (the ATTESA). I think Nissan's system is MUCH sportier than the system that Acura currently has (MDX).

Honda uses FWD because it is cheaper and they are better at making FWD cars. I honestly believe if Honda had a RWD platform ready to be used in a sports sedan, they would have used that platform to better compete with BMW. There is no denying the merits of FWD's over RWD in snowy conditions but BMW and Infiniti both have AWD versions of their sports sedans. I believe Acura could really have made a strong statement by coming out with a true sports sedan with RWD/AWD options. Instead they took the cheaper compromise and made a sporty FWD.

 

In most driving conditions, AWD is no better than FWD. I generally don't think it's worth the weight and money. And yes, their AWD system is front biased...that's because it's designed for a front drive platform. But what's interesting is, even though it's front biased, these vehicles are still winning awards. If I remember right, there were a couple Hondas on the C&D 5 Best Trucks list even with their lack of RWD platforms. Weird, huh?

You really think if they had a RWD sedan platform, they would use it to compete with BMW? If they really wanted a RWD sedan, then why don't they just make one? I mean, they built RWD platforms specifically for the NSX and S2000 and a sedan would be vastly more profitable than either of these. I don't think it's because building said sedan would be too cost prohibitive...it's because that is not the type of car this company makes. But you know? I don't care why Honda makes FWD cars. I just care that they do make them.

 

I just have to giggle about this one. Now you're telling me they are only as good on flat ground in the snow...so, you're saying only on optimal terrain, in the snow, it's as good. And this, to me, means nothing. Next you're say "on flat ground, in 29 degree weather, with the wind at your back...it's just as good" or something. Saying "RWD is as good because in certain conditions, it handles snow as well" doesn't work for me, sorry.

 

*ahem*

http://acura-cl.com/forums/showthrea...hreadid=123290


FWD and rain eh???

 

I don't want to make light of this person's misfortune, but I think this is just too ideal to pass...

 

No one said FWD's traction in bad weather was perfect...just better.

 

Hell, there are a lot of wrecked cars in there... FWD and RWD.

And the guy could have been hit. Do you know he lost control of his car???

And regardless... Cars get wrecked.

 

I never said that it could climb a steep hill in the deep snow. Flat snowy ground is not optimal terrain, its how most cities are, at least how my city is...there are not many large steep inclines one has to climb, and those that people have to make it up get plowed first after every snow, since they all lead to the rich part of town. Most cities do not have 30% hills to climb within the city limits. I'm talking about city driving, where most people spend their time. I did just fine in 3-4 inches that we had here last week, its called throttle modulation and slowing down...and I drove by many FWD and AWD cars that had found their way through fences, up sidewalks, and into poles. FWD and AWD will not save you from yourself if you do not know how to drive, like everyone seems to think it will, much like VDC/TCS electronics won't either, I don't give a shit what you do, you cannot overcome physics. Not even if you have rubber snowmobile treads on your car instead of tires. Most bad accidents happen in the snow because some fucktard was driving beyond the cars ability to stop/turn in the stuff anyway, and then it doesn't matter what wheels get power.

Uhh...yeah...ok...sure its not. I will readily admit that FWD is better in the snow, I am trying to tell people that it is not impossible to do, which everyone seems to think. But this is absolutely rediculous, take how much better you think FWD is better for the snow than RWD, and mutiply that by 10, that's how much better AWD is in the snow.

The reason C/D has trucks that are AWD and FWD biased listed on their 10best is that they don't use truck for what they are meant for.

 

I suppose you just missed the Accord right next to it?

 

yea... cars get wrecked, but that's a 2003 Z, and a ~1985 accord. the accord had exponetially more chances of getting in a wreck then the 2003 Z.

Don't you like the choice of car that was used to take them to the Junk yard to take the pics?

 

True...

And I'm sure there are plenty of pics out there of wrecked '03 Accords.

 

AWD helps so you don't get stuck, that's true. But it doesn't help the handling...when you're going around a slippery turn, FWD and AWD are pretty close to equal. Besides, my parents have a very steep driveway. In high school, I would have to take multiple runs at the driveway in my Cougar (usually going up backwards)...my girlfriend's Sentra had no problems. I never need AWD to do it but RWD usually fell short.

What I'm saying is, if it takes me 5 minutes to get out of my plowed driveway, then what's it like in less controlled situations? Not fun.

But to answer your "observation" about people saying it's impossible. Show me one post that says it's impossible. We're just saying it's not as good.

 

I saw that too...lol

 

 

this arguement again?

I never had any problems driving our '98 Q45 and '99 VDP during the winter months with the stock all-seasons on both cars and I live in the snow belt. Just my

 

I know...we rehash this every couple of threads.

And as far as your experiences vs mine...it's a YMMV situation. You've had favorable experiences, I've had bad. That's what helps define our buying choices. And that's why I buy Honda products. If you don't like FWD then go somewhere else, because that's what Honda makes.

 

i would have perferded rwd but i still love my tl.....

 

exacty how I feel about my Max.

 

yea i can show you plenty of pics of AWD audis that are wrecked.

That was dumb to post a pic of a crashed 350z without any story. YES YOU HEARD ME, I SAID DUMB!

 

The new TL weighs 3500+ lbs, it is getting porky. In comparison, my old GS weights:

3,715 lb (GS 430)/3,649 lb (GS 300)

So The TL is pretty much a fat ass now considering it's smaller size and shared Accord platform. AWD would make the TL a 4000lbs porker, heavier than the LS 430.


Oh and Honda's RWD S2000 has been whipping the Z3/M roadster and Z4s arse for quite some time now. Realize the S2000 was ONLY made to celebrate their anniversary. Honda is cheap about things.In one post, you have demonstrated you are as smart as an empty glass of beer.

They should quit marketing and trying to make the TL sporty and advertise it for luxury. THat interior is TITS and kills most all the competition.